Egwene-Galad-Gawyn love triange not over yet?

[andrewatk]

Ever since the veru first book, characters have mentioned the possibility of Egwene becoming Amyrlin, either as an of the cuff remark about something that could happen in the far distant future or even a joke...

 

And it finally happened.

 

Likewise, the books have had far to many character joke about an Aes Sedai getting married to a Whitecloak, or even the Amrylin and the Lord Captain Commander get married. It has always been done as a "When pigs fly" kind of saying, but we all know that RJ loves dramatic irony foreshadowing.

 

My Loony Theory: Berelain will die in the Last Battle. Gawyn will die in the Last Battle. Egwene and Galad will hook up.

 

My Even More Loony Theory: Berelain will die. Gawyn will survive. Galad will become Egwene's second warder AND second husband along with his brother. Brother-husbands instead of sister-wives.

[randsc]

Egwene is traditional enough in her sexual mores that she is, as far as we know, still a virgin, and disapproves of Elayne's having become pregnant by Rand.

 

She's going to go from that to being comfortable with MFM threesomes? Seems kind of unlikely.

[moratcorlm]

Egwene is traditional enough in her sexual mores that she is, as far as we know, still a virgin, and disapproves of Elayne's having become pregnant by Rand.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell...

“I have watched the girl’s dreams, too. Egwene. Once I thought you had feelings for her. Do you know who she dreams of? Morgase’s son and stepson. The son, Gawyn, most often.” Smiling, she put on a tone of mock shock. “You would not believe a simple country girl could have such dreams.”

Egwene sniffed. I know very well what he was dreaming about, thank you very much!

She's had a number of dreamworld sex sessions with Gawyn, "mak[ing] love to him until he cried for mercy", including some where she (unbeknownst to him) was participating in his fantasies. Bottom line, her sexual mores are wildly hypocritical.

 

I approve of the Egwene/Galad/Gawyn three-way marriage idea, but it's not gonna happen.

[randsc]

Of COURSE her sexual mores are wildly hypocritical. Everything about Egwene is wildly hypocritical.

 

As we have seen, Egwene cares very, very deeply about what other people think of her. So I can't see her doing something so far out of the mainstream.

[David Selig]

Galad would never in a million years go against the law and custom and participate in a three way marriage, which would include his half-brother of all people. And really, getting not one, but two really handsome princes (one of which is the most handsome guy in the world) to love and marry her, would be too much even for Egwene al'Sue.

 

The first loony theory is a bit more plausible, but Egwene wouldn't agree unless Galad give his word to obey her, and that would be a wrong thing to do for a man in his position given how the Whitecloaks look at Aes Sedai.

[johthohar]

Egwene is traditional enough in her sexual mores that she is, as far as we know, still a virgin, and disapproves of Elayne's having become pregnant by Rand.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell...

“I have watched the girl’s dreams, too. Egwene. Once I thought you had feelings for her. Do you know who she dreams of? Morgase’s son and stepson. The son, Gawyn, most often.” Smiling, she put on a tone of mock shock. “You would not believe a simple country girl could have such dreams.”

Egwene sniffed. I know very well what he was dreaming about, thank you very much!

She's had a number of dreamworld sex sessions with Gawyn, "mak[ing] love to him until he cried for mercy", including some where she (unbeknownst to him) was participating in his fantasies. Bottom line, her sexual mores are wildly hypocritical.

 

I approve of the Egwene/Galad/Gawyn three-way marriage idea, but it's not gonna happen.

 

There is a HUGE difference between what she dreams about subconsciously and what she does in the real world. From a sexually moral standpoint, the point isn't that she had the dreams so she's a bad person, it's that she subconsciously fantasized but didn't act on those fantasies so she is a good person. All her non-sexual activities aside, Egwene remains morally sound.

[randsc]

Egwene is not morally sound. For reasons that have nothing to do with what she gets up to sexually.

 

Berelain is, to me, a far more sympathetic character. In fact, I might go so far as to say I would rather my daughter act like Berelain than like Egwene.

[moratcorlm]

The entire point of her skill with dreaming is that they are fully conscious and interactive fantasies she willingly and knowingly participating in. I said nothing about good, bad, or "moral soundness"; my point is that while she may be shocked at Elayne for having sex with Rand, or blush when Gawyn suggests they sleep together in reality, or, as in my second quotation, sniff at Mat for having sexual dreams (!), she is quite fond of sex herself. Nothing wrong with that, but applying those "traditional mores" randsc mentioned to others shows an irritating lack of introspection.

[randsc]

"Mores" and "Morals", while they share a root, do not mean the same thing. And I used the word I did intentionally.

 

Mores are about conforming to societal norms. Not about right and wrong.

[johthohar]

Egwene is not morally sound. For reasons that have nothing to do with what she gets up to sexually.

 

All her non-sexual activities aside, Egwene remains morally sound.

 

The entire point of her skill with dreaming is that they are fully conscious and interactive fantasies she willingly and knowingly participating in. I said nothing about good, bad, or "moral soundness"; my point is that while she may be shocked at Elayne for having sex with Rand, or blush when Gawyn suggests they sleep together in reality, or, as in my second quotation, sniff at Mat for having sexual dreams (!), she is quite fond of sex herself. Nothing wrong with that, but applying those "traditional mores" randsc mentioned to others shows an irritating lack of introspection.

 

Okay, she may have been a little hypocritical on the Mat thing. But IIRC in her POV's she talks about being able to consciously control her normal dreams if she wants to but choosing not to do so. Therefore it would still be a subconscious fantasy. She may be conscious of what's going on in the dream. But she doesn't consciously control it. Of course I could always be remembering wrong. I'm wrong quite frequently.

 

"Mores" and "Morals", while they share a root, do not mean the same thing. And I used the word I did intentionally.

 

Mores are about conforming to societal norms. Not about right and wrong.

 

My mistake. I thought since they obviously had the same root in some Latin/Greek/other old or dead language that the meanings would be close enough as to make little difference. Basically I was too lazy to google it. I dropped my sociology class in college and never retook it because my teacher was an unprofessional (insert word inappropriate for the PG-13 nature of this board) who put on videos and then quized us on them without ever doing any actual teaching. I felt that I had a better core understanding of sociology coming out of high school than she did with her Ph.D. Says a lot for the sad state of education in the U.S. Oh... well my point was, had I finished that course, there might have been less confusion. I'm going to stop talking now.

[randsc]

Short form:

 

Egwene ALWAYS acts according to the accepted MORES of whatever group she is currently associated with. One might even say that this willingness to adopt new mores (and, implicitly, drop old ones) is one of the three defining traits of her character. The others being arrogance and chauvinism, but that's another thread.

 

On the other hand, Egwene frequently fails to act in a fashion that I would consider MORAL. The examples are too numerous to mention, of course.

 

In this specific case, there is no group in Rand-land where an MFM polyandrous relationship conforms to social mores. Morality aside.

 

If there were such a group, and Egwene found herself spending a significant amount of time in that group, I don't doubt for a moment she'd grab the first two guys that came along.

[spoke]

You also have to take into account that in the advice that she gave to novices included finding and having pillow friends. I wouldn't be surprised if she and Elayne weren't pillow friends for a while.

 

After all it is somewhat expected for the novices to do that.

[randsc]

I wouldn't be surprised if she and Elayne weren't pillow friends for a while.

 

And people say that the WOT movie will never get made! It must have been, because I am pretty sure I saw this scene.

 

But it was shot on tape, and the soundtrack sucked.

[johthohar]

I can see why people don't like her. But I really don't get all the outright hate for Egwene. I always really liked her up until this last book where she seems to become a total $%#@. I especially liked her putting the Salidar and then Tower Aes Sedai in there places. I really hate that now that she's firmly in charge she seems to be taking her "you're a bunch of dumb bitches" attitude and turning it on the rest of the world instead of the other Sisters (who, for the most part, are entirely deserving of it). But pre ToM there are plenty other characters who are much more hateable that Egwene IMO.

[randsc]

I don't want to re-hash the other Egwene threads. My point is simply that she always adopts the customs, mores and values of whatever group she is with at the time. You can view that as a positive, if you wish, and say she is flexible. But the fact that she does it seems to me to be pretty-well indisputable.

 

Since a polyandrous relationship would be out-of-bounds in any Rand-land society we have seen (remember, Aviendha was shocked by the suggestion), Egwene will never do it.

[johthohar]

Hmm... Is there any precedent in Seanchan culture for a relationship with multiple men and only one woman? I know Egwene would never join the Seanchan but I'm just trying to think of examples of this type of relationship from the text. I have no idea where and I'm probably way off but I think I remember reading somewhere that they society doesn't enforce any kind of monogamous norm.

[capuga]

I wouldn't be surprised if she and Elayne weren't pillow friends for a while.

 

And people say that the WOT movie will never get made! It must have been, because I am pretty sure I saw this scene.

 

But it was shot on tape, and the soundtrack sucked.

 

@randsc - That may be the best thing I have seen you post!

[johthohar]

I wouldn't be surprised if she and Elayne weren't pillow friends for a while.

 

And people say that the WOT movie will never get made! It must have been, because I am pretty sure I saw this scene.

 

But it was shot on tape, and the soundtrack sucked.

 

@randsc - That may be the best thing I have seen you post!

 

Now I feel dumb that I'm not getting the reference.

[capuga]

Hmm... Is there any precedent in Seanchan culture for a relationship with multiple men and only one woman? I know Egwene would never join the Seanchan but I'm just trying to think of examples of this type of relationship from the text. I have no idea where and I'm probably way off but I think I remember reading somewhere that they society doesn't enforce any kind of monogamous norm.

 

It's implied that some of the Greens are married to more than one of their Warders. This is kept hush hush and not discussed however. The Aes Sedai seem to have a don't ask, don't tell type of policy for this.

[randsc]

Hmm... Is there any precedent in Seanchan culture for a relationship with multiple men and only one woman? I know Egwene would never join the Seanchan but I'm just trying to think of examples of this type of relationship from the text. I have no idea where and I'm probably way off but I think I remember reading somewhere that they society doesn't enforce any kind of monogamous norm.

 

It's implied that some of the Greens are married to more than one of their Warders. This is kept hush hush and not discussed however. The Aes Sedai seem to have a don't ask, don't tell type of policy for this.

 

And it is more than just implied that some Greens sleep with more than one of their Warders. But the very fact that such relationships are not discussed implies that they are taboo.

[capuga]

I wouldn't be surprised if she and Elayne weren't pillow friends for a while.

 

And people say that the WOT movie will never get made! It must have been, because I am pretty sure I saw this scene.

 

But it was shot on tape, and the soundtrack sucked.

 

@randsc - That may be the best thing I have seen you post!

 

Now I feel dumb that I'm not getting the reference.

 

He's saying the pillow friends scene sounds like something out of an adult film.

[johthohar]

I wouldn't be surprised if she and Elayne weren't pillow friends for a while.

 

And people say that the WOT movie will never get made! It must have been, because I am pretty sure I saw this scene.

 

But it was shot on tape, and the soundtrack sucked.

 

@randsc - That may be the best thing I have seen you post!

 

Now I feel dumb that I'm not getting the reference.

 

He's saying the pillow friends scene sounds like something out of an adult film.

 

Now I feel really dumb lol. I should have gotten that from the "soundtrack" comment.

[haloun]

I am almost positive that in the coffee table guide as someone called it once it states that the sharans have polyandrous marriages, or at least that it is rumored. or maybe avi says that when the idea is mentioned, that the aiel are not sharan. i cant remember exactly, but the sharans have a very interesting society and if that is not where demi is then there is a chance that she will have to integrate their styles and ways, or at least some of them into the white as well, the same way she did the aiel and the sea folk. especially since they are the only ones who seem to know how to make any use of the male chanellers at all, and they seem to be the least discriminative as far as gender is concerned.

[David Selig]

Short form:

 

Egwene ALWAYS acts according to the accepted MORES of whatever group she is currently associated with. One might even say that this willingness to adopt new mores (and, implicitly, drop old ones) is one of the three defining traits of her character. The others being arrogance and chauvinism, but that's another thread.

 

On the other hand, Egwene frequently fails to act in a fashion that I would consider MORAL. The examples are too numerous to mention, of course.

 

In this specific case, there is no group in Rand-land where an MFM polyandrous relationship conforms to social mores. Morality aside.

 

If there were such a group, and Egwene found herself spending a significant amount of time in that group, I don't doubt for a moment she'd grab the first two guys that came along.

I am not sure about that. Egwene certainly accepts new mores fast in those around her and does not become judgemental towards those people whose customs are different than Two Rivers and that she picks up some of them and drop some older influences. But the Two Rivers mores remain the strongest influence on her own behaviour. She spent so much time with the Aiel yet not for a second considered taking a sister-wife for example. And even after witnessing the much more relaxed attitude towards sex outside of marriage among the Aiel, the Aes Sedai, the Tear nobles, etc, she still didn't engage in such a thing herself and still considers it wrong, though unlike Nynaeve she keeps that opinion to herself. I am somehwat curious whether she will be able to keep her opinion to herself after she hears about Rand's three women though. ;)

[gary0044187]

In this specific case, there is no group in Rand-land where an MFM polyandrous relationship conforms to social mores. Morality aside.

 

If there were such a group, and Egwene found herself spending a significant amount of time in that group, I don't doubt for a moment she'd grab the first two guys that came along.

MFM polyandrous is accepted amongst the Aiel. I do not have the books available, but it was mentioned in one of the early books.