Blood Knives vs. Fades vs. Gawyn

[Kierkegaurdian]

If Sleete beat Lan 2/7, and Gawyn beat Sleete + another Warder at the same time 2/2, I think it is safe to say that Gawyn could, at the very least, equal Lan. If Gawyn can beat Sleete + another 2/2 times, I am almost positive he could beat Sleete one-on-one every time. Which is something Lan did not do. The hierarchy that RJ set up of Blademasters is not very current ... I think that Gawyn has come into his own (as of GS and ToM) and has turned into the best swordsman in the series.

[NetSlider]

If Sleete beat Lan 2/7, and Gawyn beat Sleete + another Warder at the same time 2/2, I think it is safe to say that Gawyn could, at the very least, equal Lan. If Gawyn can beat Sleete + another 2/2 times, I am almost positive he could beat Sleete one-on-one every time. Which is something Lan did not do. The hierarchy that RJ set up of Blademasters is not very current ... I think that Gawyn has come into his own (as of GS and ToM) and has turned into the best swordsman in the series.

 

Same here. I don't like him that much (at least before tGS I really hated the guy) but besides my personal feelings, he seems to be the best right now. Maybe Lan is better, but it is not clear from anything we saw at this point in time. God I hope Lan vs. Gawyn fight or duel or something. Would be epid!

[johthohar]

If Sleete beat Lan 2/7, and Gawyn beat Sleete + another Warder at the same time 2/2, I think it is safe to say that Gawyn could, at the very least, equal Lan. If Gawyn can beat Sleete + another 2/2 times, I am almost positive he could beat Sleete one-on-one every time. Which is something Lan did not do. The hierarchy that RJ set up of Blademasters is not very current ... I think that Gawyn has come into his own (as of GS and ToM) and has turned into the best swordsman in the series.

 

This is ignoring the fact that Lan used to spar with other warders. Now I'm not sure how long ago this was but I'm guessing quite some time since Moiraine has spent most of her life as an Aes Sedai outside of the Tower searching for the Dragon Reborn. That's plenty of time for Lan to improve his swordsmanship. Given there has been plenty of time for Sleete to improve his as well but there is no way for us to tell who has improved and to what degree. There are too many variables to make a solid case for either without Brandon coming out and saying one is better than the other. And it's likely the hierarchy that Robert Jordan talked about among the blade masters is outdated.

[Kierkegaurdian]

If Sleete beat Lan 2/7, and Gawyn beat Sleete + another Warder at the same time 2/2, I think it is safe to say that Gawyn could, at the very least, equal Lan. If Gawyn can beat Sleete + another 2/2 times, I am almost positive he could beat Sleete one-on-one every time. Which is something Lan did not do. The hierarchy that RJ set up of Blademasters is not very current ... I think that Gawyn has come into his own (as of GS and ToM) and has turned into the best swordsman in the series.

 

This is ignoring the fact that Lan used to spar with other warders. Now I'm not sure how long ago this was but I'm guessing quite some time since Moiraine has spent most of her life as an Aes Sedai outside of the Tower searching for the Dragon Reborn. That's plenty of time for Lan to improve his swordsmanship. Given there has been plenty of time for Sleete to improve his as well but there is no way for us to tell who has improved and to what degree. There are too many variables to make a solid case for either without Brandon coming out and saying one is better than the other. And it's likely the hierarchy that Robert Jordan talked about among the blade masters is outdated.

 

 

I guess it is a pretty thorny issue. On the one hand, Lan might have gotten better. He also might have gotten worse with age, though that doesn't seem likely. After Moiraine "died" he continued working on his swordsmanship, right? I seem to remember a scene with him practicing. So, if he has been doing nothing but practicing since The Shadow Rising ... he very well might be stronger than Gawyn. I am just focusing on the only thing (sword-wise) that Gawyn and Lan have in common: they both fought Sleete. And against Sleete, I would say Gawyn was more dominant. Honestly though, it might also come down to a discussion of experience versus talent. Obviously Lan has significantly more experience than Gawyn, who is still young, and only recently demonstrated superior sword skills. I am curious ... what are the rough estimates for Lan's age? Do we know how long ago it was that he sparred with other Warders?

[NetSlider]

If Sleete beat Lan 2/7, and Gawyn beat Sleete + another Warder at the same time 2/2, I think it is safe to say that Gawyn could, at the very least, equal Lan. If Gawyn can beat Sleete + another 2/2 times, I am almost positive he could beat Sleete one-on-one every time. Which is something Lan did not do. The hierarchy that RJ set up of Blademasters is not very current ... I think that Gawyn has come into his own (as of GS and ToM) and has turned into the best swordsman in the series.

 

This is ignoring the fact that Lan used to spar with other warders. Now I'm not sure how long ago this was but I'm guessing quite some time since Moiraine has spent most of her life as an Aes Sedai outside of the Tower searching for the Dragon Reborn. That's plenty of time for Lan to improve his swordsmanship. Given there has been plenty of time for Sleete to improve his as well but there is no way for us to tell who has improved and to what degree. There are too many variables to make a solid case for either without Brandon coming out and saying one is better than the other. And it's likely the hierarchy that Robert Jordan talked about among the blade masters is outdated.

 

 

I guess it is a pretty thorny issue. On the one hand, Lan might have gotten better. He also might have gotten worse with age, though that doesn't seem likely. After Moiraine "died" he continued working on his swordsmanship, right? I seem to remember a scene with him practicing. So, if he has been doing nothing but practicing since The Shadow Rising ... he very well might be stronger than Gawyn. I am just focusing on the only thing (sword-wise) that Gawyn and Lan have in common: they both fought Sleete. And against Sleete, I would say Gawyn was more dominant. Honestly though, it might also come down to a discussion of experience versus talent. Obviously Lan has significantly more experience than Gawyn, who is still young, and only recently demonstrated superior sword skills. I am curious ... what are the rough estimates for Lan's age? Do we know how long ago it was that he sparred with other Warders?

 

He became a warder 20-22 years ago. If that help

[johthohar]

I guess it is a pretty thorny issue. On the one hand, Lan might have gotten better. He also might have gotten worse with age, though that doesn't seem likely. After Moiraine "died" he continued working on his swordsmanship, right? I seem to remember a scene with him practicing. So, if he has been doing nothing but practicing since The Shadow Rising ... he very well might be stronger than Gawyn. I am just focusing on the only thing (sword-wise) that Gawyn and Lan have in common: they both fought Sleete. And against Sleete, I would say Gawyn was more dominant. Honestly though, it might also come down to a discussion of experience versus talent. Obviously Lan has significantly more experience than Gawyn, who is still young, and only recently demonstrated superior sword skills. I am curious ... what are the rough estimates for Lan's age? Do we know how long ago it was that he sparred with other Warders?

 

Moiraine was raised to the Shawl something like 20 or 25 years ago? Or was it longer? Anyway, I would put Lan's age around mid 40's and would guess it's been at least 20 years since he sparred regularly with other warders.

[Kierkegaurdian]

I guess it is a pretty thorny issue. On the one hand, Lan might have gotten better. He also might have gotten worse with age, though that doesn't seem likely. After Moiraine "died" he continued working on his swordsmanship, right? I seem to remember a scene with him practicing. So, if he has been doing nothing but practicing since The Shadow Rising ... he very well might be stronger than Gawyn. I am just focusing on the only thing (sword-wise) that Gawyn and Lan have in common: they both fought Sleete. And against Sleete, I would say Gawyn was more dominant. Honestly though, it might also come down to a discussion of experience versus talent. Obviously Lan has significantly more experience than Gawyn, who is still young, and only recently demonstrated superior sword skills. I am curious ... what are the rough estimates for Lan's age? Do we know how long ago it was that he sparred with other Warders?

 

Moiraine was raised to the Shawl something like 20 or 25 years ago? Or was it longer? Anyway, I would put Lan's age around mid 40's and would guess it's been at least 20 years since he sparred regularly with other warders.

 

 

Ok. For some reason I thought he was much older than that. Assuming he is ~40, his skills wouldn't really have slipped due to age.

[DPT24]

Why do people think Gawyn has gotten better than Galad? Galad was much better than Gawyn in the Tower, and they've both been doing a lot of fighting since then. That Galad is still better isn't unexpected. As for Lan, he's very clearly better than both of the brothers, as he's slaughtered large numbers of shadowspawn, Aiel, and darkfriends throughout the series.

[johthohar]

Why do people think Gawyn has gotten better than Galad? Galad was much better than Gawyn in the Tower, and they've both been doing a lot of fighting since then. That Galad is still better isn't unexpected. As for Lan, he's very clearly better than both of the brothers, as he's slaughtered large numbers of shadowspawn, Aiel, and darkfriends throughout the series.

 

The way I read the relationship between Galad and Gawyn throughout the series is that Gawyn has always felt a need to underachieve to make Galad look better as a way of compensating for Galad saving his life. He's always thought of Galad as a savior figure. Stonger, faster, better in every way than Gawyn could ever be. So he subconsciously underperforms to make Galad look better. Not that Galad really needs it. But now that they've been seperated for a long period of time Galad has come into his own. There is no direct comparison since they've spared at the Tower so we have no way to be sure. But I think Gawyn surpassed Galad long ago.

[Kierkegaurdian]

Why do people think Gawyn has gotten better than Galad? Galad was much better than Gawyn in the Tower, and they've both been doing a lot of fighting since then. That Galad is still better isn't unexpected. As for Lan, he's very clearly better than both of the brothers, as he's slaughtered large numbers of shadowspawn, Aiel, and darkfriends throughout the series.

 

The way I read the relationship between Galad and Gawyn throughout the series is that Gawyn has always felt a need to underachieve to make Galad look better as a way of compensating for Galad saving his life. He's always thought of Galad as a savior figure. Stonger, faster, better in every way than Gawyn could ever be. So he subconsciously underperforms to make Galad look better. Not that Galad really needs it. But now that they've been seperated for a long period of time Galad has come into his own. There is no direct comparison since they've spared at the Tower so we have no way to be sure. But I think Gawyn surpassed Galad long ago.

 

 

Wasn't Gawyn even considering stepping aside and letting Galad woo Egwene? This would be pretty early on, before Elaida's takeover of the White Tower.

[johthohar]

Wasn't Gawyn even considering stepping aside and letting Galad woo Egwene? This would be pretty early on, before Elaida's takeover of the White Tower.

 

He wasn't even willing to admit that he loved her because he thought Galad wanted her. That was how indebted he feels toward Galad. IIRC Egwene had to convince him that she didn't love Galad before he would even admit to loving her.

[NetSlider]

Why do people think Gawyn has gotten better than Galad? Galad was much better than Gawyn in the Tower, and they've both been doing a lot of fighting since then. That Galad is still better isn't unexpected. As for Lan, he's very clearly better than both of the brothers, as he's slaughtered large numbers of shadowspawn, Aiel, and darkfriends throughout the series.

 

The way I read the relationship between Galad and Gawyn throughout the series is that Gawyn has always felt a need to underachieve to make Galad look better as a way of compensating for Galad saving his life. He's always thought of Galad as a savior figure. Stonger, faster, better in every way than Gawyn could ever be. So he subconsciously underperforms to make Galad look better. Not that Galad really needs it. But now that they've been seperated for a long period of time Galad has come into his own. There is no direct comparison since they've spared at the Tower so we have no way to be sure. But I think Gawyn surpassed Galad long ago.

 

 

Wasn't Gawyn even considering stepping aside and letting Galad woo Egwene? This would be pretty early on, before Elaida's takeover of the White Tower.

 

Sure did

[Brevsparv]

LanvsSleete 5/7 and GawynvsSleete 2/2 does not say very much about LanvsGawyn. It is like sports. The best team of the season usually loses some games. Perhaps a servant in the WT best Lan but not everyone else.

[NetSlider]

LanvsSleete 5/7 and GawynvsSleete 2/2 does not say very much about LanvsGawyn. It is like sports. The best team of the season usually loses some games. Perhaps a servant in the WT best Lan but not everyone else.

 

Well, except Gawyn vs Sleete also had another warder in the mix.

[Kierkegaurdian]

LanvsSleete 5/7 and GawynvsSleete 2/2 does not say very much about LanvsGawyn. It is like sports. The best team of the season usually loses some games. Perhaps a servant in the WT best Lan but not everyone else.

 

The important part is that Gawyn went 2/2 against Sleete and another Warder at the same time. That is a pretty big deal. If Sleete on his own could beat Lan, but couldn't beat Gawyn even with help, Gawyn seems stronger. The catch, as pointed out, is that Lan vs. Sleete was a long time ago, and it makes sense for Lan to have gotten stronger, to say nothing of more experienced. We know he became focused on becoming as strong as possible after Moiraine appeared to have died.

[NetSlider]

LanvsSleete 5/7 and GawynvsSleete 2/2 does not say very much about LanvsGawyn. It is like sports. The best team of the season usually loses some games. Perhaps a servant in the WT best Lan but not everyone else.

 

The important part is that Gawyn went 2/2 against Sleete and another Warder at the same time. That is a pretty big deal. If Sleete on his own could beat Lan, but couldn't beat Gawyn even with help, Gawyn seems stronger. The catch, as pointed out, is that Lan vs. Sleete was a long time ago, and it makes sense for Lan to have gotten stronger, to say nothing of more experienced. We know he became focused on becoming as strong as possible after Moiraine appeared to have died.

 

I guess we can say that by the time Gawyn gets to Lan's age he'll be the greatest of all time than....unless he dies before, that is.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

It probably WAS Lan>Galad>Gawyn

 

Before Gawyn was made a Warder...probably bumped it to Lan>Gawyn>Galad...

 

Toss on a super cool Bloodknife ring...and ding ding, I think you have your winner...until he dies.

 

 

He's sort of a fool, but I think with Warder bond + Terangeral, Gawyn is the best. Without the ring, Lan still takes the cake. And Galad WAS better than Gawyn until the Warder bound. I think he is finally better than his brother at something.

 

 

That being said...Mat > all

[Suttree]

I am not sure how people can think that Lan can be bested by anyone with a sword. He has never been challenged or come close to losing. In TGS, chapter "An Offer and a Departure", when Gawyn dueled Sleete and Marlesh at once and beat them twice Gawyn recalls that Sleete "was said to have bested even Lan Mandragoran twice out of seven bouts, BACK when Mandragoran had been known to spar with other Warders." This may seem like it is helping prove someone's point that Gawyn is the best but it isn't. That quote can be found on page 214. Gawyn only dueled them twice and yes beat them both times but would he be able to keep that up for a straight seven times. i dont think so.

 

Also whenever Lan goes into battle he NEVER seems to get seriously injured or wounded. He has been in a lot of battles for him to be just lucky and we all know he is not lucky, he is just crazy good. The way the second half of the quote was phrased it seemed that Lan became too good to want to duel with other men. But I do think Gawyn is better than Galad, and that's because Galad just barely beat Valda (who granted is well known for being a great swordmaster) while Gawyn pretty handily beat Sleete who is "near legendary in the White Tower for his prowess" (p.214).

 

Actually that's not true. He came pretty close to being beaten by Ryne Venamar in New Spring. In fact the only way he won was Ryne underestimated him once he was wounded.

[capuga]

sanderson does not know what he's talking about. If one were to read all the books from start to end without the knowledge of sanderson's remarks then one would say in a fight between the two brothers, the odds are on gawayn to come out victorious.

 

Gawyn is that lethal with the blade right now.

 

Yes, it definitely makes sense to just ignore what the author says. Its not like he's the one writing the scenes or the one that has all of RJ's notes about this kind of thing. If Brandon says that Lan>Galad>Gawyn then that is the way it is. Period. It really doesn't matter if you disagree because its not your story.

 

To go further though - Perhaps part of this is Brandon's fault for making Gawyn look so awesome in tGS and ToM without giving Galad equal awesomeness. So it is understandable that it might look like Gawyn is better now but that does not change the fact that he is not.

[NetSlider]

sanderson does not know what he's talking about. If one were to read all the books from start to end without the knowledge of sanderson's remarks then one would say in a fight between the two brothers, the odds are on gawayn to come out victorious.

 

Gawyn is that lethal with the blade right now.

 

Yes, it definitely makes sense to just ignore what the author says. Its not like he's the one writing the scenes or the one that has all of RJ's notes about this kind of thing. If Brandon says that Lan>Galad>Gawyn then that is the way it is. Period. It really doesn't matter if you disagree because its not your story.

 

To go further though - Perhaps part of this is Brandon's fault for making Gawyn look so awesome in tGS and ToM without giving Galad equal awesomeness. So it is understandable that it might look like Gawyn is better now but that does not change the fact that he is not.

 

I agree that for the 99.99% of the time author is always right, but there are moments when logic simply does not agree with the author (if we know all the facts that is). This being said, the Gawyn situation is not one of those time. I'm just saying that in a complex universe like WOT some answers even RJ could not give without making the whole world and the story into a joke.

[capuga]

sanderson does not know what he's talking about. If one were to read all the books from start to end without the knowledge of sanderson's remarks then one would say in a fight between the two brothers, the odds are on gawayn to come out victorious.

 

Gawyn is that lethal with the blade right now.

 

Yes, it definitely makes sense to just ignore what the author says. Its not like he's the one writing the scenes or the one that has all of RJ's notes about this kind of thing. If Brandon says that Lan>Galad>Gawyn then that is the way it is. Period. It really doesn't matter if you disagree because its not your story.

 

To go further though - Perhaps part of this is Brandon's fault for making Gawyn look so awesome in tGS and ToM without giving Galad equal awesomeness. So it is understandable that it might look like Gawyn is better now but that does not change the fact that he is not.

 

I agree that for the 99.99% of the time author is always right, but there are moments when logic simply does not agree with the author (if we know all the facts that is). This being said, the Gawyn situation is not one of those time. I'm just saying that in a complex universe like WOT some answers even RJ could not give without making the whole world and the story into a joke.

 

Yeah, I definitely understand this. That's why I added that second paragraph. Because, to be honest, I thought that Gawyn had passed Galad by the end of ToM based on how things were written (I think Lan has consistently been written as the best swordsman in the series). That's why I can understand an argument along the lines of "Well Brandon says Galad is better but in the books Gawyn seems to do more with the sword." The arguments that I do not like to see are like the ones that I was responding to that say things like "Brandon doesn't know what he's talking about" or "Brandon is wrong". That is just completely unfair to Brandon. He was asked to rank the blademasters and gave us an actual to goodness straight answer without any RAFO or MAFO or I'm not sure. When that happens I just have to take his word as law because its his (RJ's) story and he has all the notes.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

You can't get accurate readings off 2/2 and 5/7.. Sleete could've beaten Gawyn the next 5 times, evening up the tallies..

 

Also, sword fights aren't purely based on talent. Surroundings, conditions, rest, ect.. are all put into effect..

 

 

Blood Knives could be very weak, you can't base your opinion off a single fight with only one person (Though, seeing as who the person is, and Lan/Galad are better swordsmen than Gawyn, if should give you some insight).. For all you know, Lan/Galad could've killed 4/5+.. And probably could've, because they're better than Gawyn..

 

 

 

And to clear some things up, Lan was born in 953 NE, Gawyn in 979 and Galad in 978.. As of The Gathering Storm it's 1,000 NE (Not 100% sure about The Towers of Midnight, but quite sure it's still 1,000 NE)

[capeta]

Actually that's not true. He came pretty close to being beaten by Ryne Venamar in New Spring. In fact the only way he won was Ryne underestimated him once he was wounded.

 

In new spring we don't even know if Ryne Venamar was a blade master. He might have been but we don't know. Also at that time Lan was still young (26 if the wot.wiki.com time line is right).

 

Lets not forget Eamon Valda, when Morgase heard that Galad killed Valda in a duel "Her breath caught in her throat. Valda had reputedly been one of the greatest swordsmen alive."(TOM pg 457). I kind of doubt Morgase has heard of Sleete.

 

What I want to see in the next book is Galad and Gawyn spar, then mat walks up and bets them a gold crown each he can take both of them at the same time:mat:

 

-Cap

[moratcorlm]

And to clear some things up, Lan was born in 953 NE, Gawyn in 979 and Galad in 978.. As of The Gathering Storm it's 1,000 NE (Not 100% sure about The Towers of Midnight, but quite sure it's still 1,000 NE)

Galad was actually born in 970-971, since Tigraine vanished when he was an infant in 972 (EOTW glossary). Gawyn was "a few years past twenty" one year ago (LOC prologue), which is kind of vague but probably sets his birth around 976-977. You're right about Lan.

 

(For comparison, the three ta'veren were born in 978, and Elayne and Egwene in 981. Nynaeve was born in 973... urk.)

 

I'll just say that it's such an irrelevant topic that I'll believe what Sanderson says completely; Lan is the best swordsman alive, followed by Galad and then Gawyn. But I think he has played up Gawyn's abilities a bit too much in the last two books.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

And to clear some things up, Lan was born in 953 NE, Gawyn in 979 and Galad in 978.. As of The Gathering Storm it's 1,000 NE (Not 100% sure about The Towers of Midnight, but quite sure it's still 1,000 NE)

Galad was actually born in 970-971, since Tigraine vanished when he was an infant in 972 (EOTW glossary). Gawyn was "a few years past twenty" one year ago (LOC prologue), which is kind of vague but probably sets his birth around 976-977. You're right about Lan.

 

(For comparison, the three ta'veren were born in 978, and Elayne and Egwene in 981. Nynaeve was born in 973... urk.)

 

I'll just say that it's such an irrelevant topic that I'll believe what Sanderson says completely; Lan is the best swordsman alive, followed by Galad and then Gawyn. But I think he has played up Gawyn's abilities a bit too much in the last two books.

 

"972 NE

Tigraine gives birth to her and Taringail's son, Galad Damodred, at the start of the year. Devastated by her brother's apparent death and her ill-treatment at the hands of her husband, she asks for advice from Gitara Moroso. Gitara tells her she must journey into the Aiel Waste and learn to become a 'Maiden', or the world would be destroyed. Tigraine disappears from Andor and crosses the Spine of the World. Found by several Aiel Maidens of the Spear, she realises it is her destiny to become one of them, and they allow it.

Tigraine's disappearance plunges Andor into chaos."

 

He was born in 72, and she left the same year.

 

"979 NE

Gawyn Trakand is born in Andor to Queen Morgase and her consort, Taringail."

 

Wheel of Time Wikia.

 

 

Edit: Typo.