Dynamics of strength in Flows, Power and Talents

[Taura-Tierno]

How does strength in the One Power, strength in the Flows and strength in Talents affect what people can do? Can they make up for weaknesses in the other?

 

Say for instance, that you want to use the weave to hold/lift someone with Air. What decides how large the weave can be made? What decides how much the person can lift? Can someone who's very strong in the One Power but abysmal at weaving Air lift less/as much as/more than someone who's very weak in the Power, but strong in Air?

 

What decides how large a fireball someone can create? Strength in Fire, or strength in the One Power?

 

What decides how hard someone can hit another with a club of Air? Strength in the Flow, or inte One Power?

 

What about more complex things, like Cloud Dancing? I take it that the Talent is tightly connected with strength in Air and Water, but I guess that not all people strong in those flows can do it? Does great strength in the One Power make up lack of Talent to any extent?

[Durinax]

its a combination of strength + ability.

 

Althoguh it does seem ability is stronger that strength in some ways.

[capuga]

It would seem to be a combination of the all the factors. For example, the size of a fireball would depend both on strength in the Power and your strength at Fire in particular. So if two people that had the same strength in raw One Power but one of them was stronger in Fire, that person could weave a larger fireball.

 

You see this with the Kin woman in Ebou Dar who has a Talent for shielding. She is not that strong in One Power strength but her Talent makes up for this and she is able to shield much stronger women. There is another good example of this type of thing in ToM, but we obviously can't discuss that here.

[Taura-Tierno]

Yes, Berowin is a great example of Talent instead of skill. So you might say that a Talent can decrease the Power-need for something?

 

But how about two people of different strengths in both the flow and the Power, and where a Talent is no applicable? Such as lifting someone. Or would, in that case, strength in Air sort of count like a Talent (although it's more like a skill, perhaps), in that being strong in Air can allow a weaker person to actually lift more? Your example with the fireball would be quite indicate that that is true. The only problem I have with that is Siuan. Her decrease in strength was quite dramatic, as we know, and she mentions that prior to the stilling, she was able to lift someone three times her weight, whereas now, she cannot lift Gareth. I take that stilling an being Healed in the wrong way doesn't reduce your skill with a Flow, or affect Talents otherwise, since Siuan's Healing ability remained the same. So, it seems to me that at least when it comes to lifting, strength in the One Power is more important than skill with the Flow.

 

Maybe strength in the Flow affects _if_ you can make the weave at all, and how well you can make it. How well you can make would then affect how much of the One Power you'd need to get it working, i.e. someone with low skills in Air would make a bad weak (kind of like a leaking pipe), so to make it work properly, more Power would have to be put into it. Someone very skilled in Air (like Elayne) could make the weave better, and would thus need less Power to make it work, but could still fill it with even more Power to get a greater effect. Would that make sense?

[David Selig]

Healing seem to depend much more on Talent than strength. Some of the strongest channellers in the series are almost useless as Healers - Rand, Egwene, Elayne, etc. Some of the best Healers are not that strong - Sumeko for example.

 

Lifting someone with Air relies purely on power and Flow ability, which makes sense, since this is a really simple weave.

 

But even things, which seem to be mostly strength based, like shielding, sometimes can be compensated by a strong Talent, as we've seen demonstrated by Berowin.

[Nightstrike]

From the books it seems like strength is the most important factor for most people. Only those who have a rare Talent for a specific thing can break all rules and succeed beyond what they "should" be able to do.

 

Siuan used to be able to lift three time her own weight. Nothing says it was a special Talent with her. Egwene is strong with Fire & Earth, but she can lift 4 women high into the air, whilst shielding 1 Windfinder. Adeleas could lift two women, and she is at about median strength. I'd say it's likely none of them had any particular Talent with that.

[Taura-Tierno]

From the books it seems like strength is the most important factor for most people. Only those who have a rare Talent for a specific thing can break all rules and succeed beyond what they "should" be able to do.

 

Siuan used to be able to lift three time her own weight. Nothing says it was a special Talent with her. Egwene is strong with Fire & Earth, but she can lift 4 women high into the air, whilst shielding 1 Windfinder. Adeleas could lift two women, and she is at about median strength. I'd say it's likely none of them had any particular Talent with that.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Adeleas lift two people while being linked with Vandane? Which I guess would indicate that at least when it comes to lifting people, strength is the determining factor. Egwene, however, is also mentioned to be skilled in Air, in addition to Earth and Fire.

 

 

That almost stood to reason. Of the Five Powers, Fire and Earth had been strongest in men in the Age of Legends, and Air and Water in women; Spirit had been shared equally. Egwene hardly had to think to use Air or Water, once she had learned to do a thing in the first place. But the thought did not further their purpose.

 

It indicates to me that Air is easy to work with, for Egwene. And Water too. She might not be as strong in them as in Earth and Fire, but definitely far from weak, and given her considerable strength otherwise compared to most Aes Sedai, it's no wonder she can easily lift four people.

[Nightstrike]

I believe it was Elayne who thought about seeing Adeleas lifting two people (through a window a bit up). Seems to me like she did it on her own.

 

Regarding Egwene & Adeleas - those weights lifted are minimum capacities. Siuan's lifting 3 times her own weight is her own assessment, so it should be accurate enough.

 

(Not all women are the same weight, but I reckon Siuan might be about average size.)

[Taura-Tierno]

Ah, I found what you're referring to, and you're right, it seems she did it on her own. I guess she must be very strong in Air then, since Siuan was way stronger in the One Power.

[dovien]

There are other things to consider about flow-specific strength, also. Someone with special ability in a particular element may be able to handle certain weaves that others could not (for instance, locating and distinguishing ores seems to be an Earth-talent-only skill). Likewise, such a person might be able to work weaves with that element at greater ranges or much finer degrees than others could. There are also differences in rates of learning; learning weaves of fire and earth comes easily to men while learning weaves of air and water comes naturally to women.