Ishamael/Moridin's knowledge of past ages

[Guest George Howell]

Hi all,

 

This is my first time posting here.

 

Something has been bugging me that I can't quite explain. Ishamael/Moridin (assuming that they are one and the same) regularly refers to the battle between the light and the dark in past ages with a personal knowledge of these battles. Clearly, Ishamael would remember the last battle in the AoL, but where could his memories of previous Tarmon Gaidons have come from?

At first I assumed that he was lying about his knowledge, as it is mainly used as a tool to try to corrupt the three tav'eren in The Eye of The World. However, in one of the later books (Path of Daggers prologue, I think) he reflects on previous battles in a PoV (whilst playing Sah'rah).

So, does anyone know how Moridin could have this knowledge?

 

Was it imparted to him by the Dark One?

Is he a Champion of the Dark who is spun out by the pattern, and who managed to unlock the memories of previous lives?

Is he just insane?

Something else?

 

Cheers!

[blazetheearth]

Hi all,

 

This is my first time posting here.

 

Something has been bugging me that I can't quite explain. Ishamael/Moridin (assuming that they are one and the same) regularly refers to the battle between the light and the dark in past ages with a personal knowledge of these battles. Clearly, Ishamael would remember the last battle in the AoL, but where could his memories of previous Tarmon Gaidons have come from?

At first I assumed that he was lying about his knowledge, as it is mainly used as a tool to try to corrupt the three tav'eren in The Eye of The World. However, in one of the later books (Path of Daggers prologue, I think) he reflects on previous battles in a PoV (whilst playing Sah'rah).

So, does anyone know how Moridin could have this knowledge?

 

Was it imparted to him by the Dark One?

Is he a Champion of the Dark who is spun out by the pattern, and who managed to unlock the memories of previous lives?

Is he just insane?

Something else?

 

Cheers!

 

Personally I figured that he had done something that gave him access to it, but it could simply be that he is insane. His "memories" might be nothing more that the delusional fantasy of some one who has channeled the TP too often. Alternately, it could be that during the AoL, he had an Epiphany (similar to Rand during VoG) which allowed him to access power from the Wheel itself and therefore sse all of the lives he had been spun out for. The difference would be that Ishy epiphany led him away from love, and instead to obliteration. Then based on his knowledge from those lives, he decided to go over to the DO because in his opinion and memory it doesn't matter that the DO gets bottled up every other Age or so, because eventually the DO will break free (in this Age or another) and destroy all of Creation. I always envisioned a VOG type episode with Ishy during the AoL that caused him to turn away from the Light.

[Agitel]

Ishamael was a theologian and philosopher in the Age of Legends. He pretty much worked it out himself, the same way Herid Fel did in the Third Age, going so far as to argue before the Hall of Servants that the most logical choice would be to aid this new god they'd discovered. He embellished some of the things he said to Rand a little, as he had come to almost see himself as the Dark One in his madness from overuse of the True Power, but yeah. He's not some Champion of the Shadow who gets spun out for the same role every AoL and Third Age. The Wheel doesn't try to destroy itself.

[mb]

I would guess that Ishamael got the information from books he studied during Age of Legends. Age of Legends I guess had more books than in Third Age.

[moratcorlm]

Also, the "delusional fantasy of some one who has channeled the TP too often" may not be false. We have hints in several places that the True Power allows a direct communion with Shai'tan; there could be flow the other way as well.

 

He's quite clear in the TPOD prologue that he does not have access to the memories of past lives of the Nae'blis/Lord of the Evening, though.

[moratcorlm]

He's not some Champion of the Shadow who gets spun out for the same role every AoL and Third Age. The Wheel doesn't try to destroy itself.

There's nothing to say that the endless sequence of boring into/sealing up Shai'tan's prison is not healthy for the Wheel.

[mb]

We have hints in several places that the True Power allows a direct communion with Shai'tan

I do not recall any such hints.

[moratcorlm]

TDR55, somewhat ambiguous but indicative;

TOM5, rather more clearly.

[Zentari]

He's not some Champion of the Shadow who gets spun out for the same role every AoL and Third Age. The Wheel doesn't try to destroy itself.

There's nothing to say that the endless sequence of boring into/sealing up Shai'tan's prison is not healthy for the Wheel.

Nothing you take into account that is, which pretty much includes everything : pattern unraveling ,souls being torn appart from their place or pattern threads being burned out of existance en masse.Unless you can find some kind of proof or even indication that those things are/can be beneficial, that is.

[moratcorlm]

The fact that it has happened before and will happen again forever suggests that it cannot be too harmful to the Wheel, though it certainly is harmful to part of the Pattern. There's a theory that the cycle of boring and closing is a way to let off pressure from the imprisonment of Shai'tan within the Pattern.

[mb]

TDR55, somewhat ambiguous but indicative

Dragon Reborn chapter 55, the scene seems more of a call to the Dark One than communication with him.

 

 

Might be a while before I buy and/or read Towers of Midnight. Am waiting for the paperback version. Or if some relative gives me a copy for Christmas, would start reading it after my second time of Gathering Storm; currently near the end of Dragon Reborn in my second time through this series.

[Zentari]

The fact that it has happened before and will happen again forever suggests that it cannot be too harmful to the Wheel, though it certainly is harmful to part of the Pattern.

It suggests nothing of the sort.All it does is indicate that the release is a central plot of the pattern.

There's a theory that the cycle of boring and closing is a way to let off pressure from the imprisonment of Shai'tan within the Pattern.

Which is backed up by ? Indications ? Assumptions ?

[moratcorlm]

The fact that it has happened before and will happen again forever suggests that it cannot be too harmful to the Wheel, though it certainly is harmful to part of the Pattern.

It suggests nothing of the sort.All it does is indicate that the release is a central plot of the pattern.

You are, of course, correct. I should have said "has not been."

There's a theory that the cycle of boring and closing is a way to let off pressure from the imprisonment of Shai'tan within the Pattern.

Which is backed up by ? Indications ? Assumptions ?

I didn't say I believed it, but so far as I can tell it isn't ruled out by anything that has been revealed. The metaphysics of the Wheel are open to interpretation in a lot of non-plot-critical areas.

[Guest Vesper]

Ive thought about this question before, and the only conclusion i can come to is completely based on assumptions that maybe someone can prove wrong.

 

1. I believe, like some have already stated that Ishamael figured out the way the world works on his own and that lead him to the dark one. Touching the Dark one for so long has left him crazy.

 

2. Kind of about this topic but ive always assumed that the wheel is looking for balance NOT a victory. If the wheel wanted victory it seems like it could achieve it, and by victory i mean defeating the dark one, his followers and keeping anyone out of the pattern that would turn the world to the darkside again.(note i understand the the dark one is working outside the pattern but still it seems like the wheel could "win" permanently if it wanted to.) To this end i believe that when things are going to "good" (A.O.L) the wheel puts someone like Ishamael and the other Forsaken into the pattern so they can find the dark one and be "evil." The wheel, just like a wheel in RL most be balanced to keep turning properly.

 

3. i also like to think that Ishamel is a Hero of the horn and is reborn just like the others. Think about it this way Hawkwing was doing good things sure but he was corruptible and maybe not bad but made major mistakes. Birgitte talks about her past lives not always being epic hero tales, sometime she was bad to. I believe that the heroes are people with distinct personalty's sometimes they are led down a good path and lead heroic lives, sometimes they are born and led down the wrong path and do bad things.

Rand is good this life and it looks like he will stay on the good path, Ishamel on the other hand is born and went bad this time. Sometimes they are reversed because Ishamels distinct personalty is the one that can work within the world(the best way to describe what im getting at is sometimes you need a leader that can win a war, sometimes you need a great diplomat, sometimes you need someone with grand ideas/vision, sometimes you need a focused/hard worker. if you have the wrong Hero personalty time born he may become the evil one) I guess this is a little nature VS. nurture. Question If Ishamel is dead and in Tar and Hawkwing is dead in Tar and you talk to both of them would be able to tell witch one was the bad guy? i dont think so

 

Anyways a little of topic just things i was thinking about:)

[Zentari]

You are, of course, correct. I should have said "has not been."

That is true.If I remember correctly , the current age is the one where the situation is the worst.

Still, I find the whole "maybe it happens for a reason" to be vastly different from "it MUST happen".

I didn't say I believed it, but so far as I can tell it isn't ruled out by anything that has been revealed. The metaphysics of the Wheel are open to interpretation in a lot of non-plot-critical areas.

True.Still , for that particular theory to be correct, somehow the DO's must wax and wane, no ? I don't mean him being able to influence the wheel more, I'm talking about him as an entity somehow becoming stronger and weaker,regardless of seal status.

 

That's a whole lot of unknown territory , if you ask me.