Rand's Waaayy too Strong

[Haran]

I actually see him as less boring. I mean, the man REMEMBERS AoL...that's crazy cool! The whole emo-Rand started to get on my nerve there. I do agree with the timing, having him like this at the end is perfect. The man is truly the DRAGON now!

But he isn't just the Dragon - he's something else entirely. Remember when we could hear LTT's memories sifted out from Rand's? He was terrified of more than 4 or 5 Aes Sedai shielding him. New Rand doesn't care about a full circle of 13, and after A Storm of Light and his jaunt through the White Tower, I think it's safe to assume that he could break a shield of 13. His ability surpasses anything that LTT could have ever done.

 

This seems off, unless you consider the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn as two distinctly separate entities within a single turning of the Wheel. The original Dragon never heard voices from a past life, or integrated with a past life. Their functions are different (sealing the bore and giving rise to the taint vs. rebuilding the prison (or slaying the DO?) and cleansing the taint). Each is half a cycle, rather than a single cycle repeated. I'm not entirely sure if the amalgam of Rand and LTT justifies the drastic gain in power that we've seen, but you could argue that his little revelation did something that opened him to a ridiculous amount of raw power for the master (LTT) to weave.

 

But I'm rambling at this point - New Rand definitely kicks ass.

 

was LTT taveren though?

[johthohar]

 

And I'd advise paying more attention to the content rather than the spelling and the grammar.

 

I'm terribly sorry that I haven't combed through every single word of the series multiple times and read and re read every single interview or question answer that Jordan or Sanderson ever gave. I'm entitled to have an opinion. And I'm allowed to express that opinion. When I'm shown to be wrong I will acknowledge as much as I do now. Although the more I find out the more I feel some of these things were answers that were contrived by Jordan or Sanderson to make up for inconsistencies in storytelling. Which is perfectly alright. It his his story and god knows other writers have done the same thing. But it kinda ruins the story for me. Still..... I could have done without your tone ;)

[Express]

 

And I'd advise paying more attention to the content rather than the spelling and the grammar.

 

I'm terribly sorry that I haven't combed through every single word of the series multiple times and read and re read every single interview or question answer that Jordan or Sanderson ever gave. I'm entitled to have an opinion. And I'm allowed to express that opinion. When I'm shown to be wrong I will acknowledge as much as I do now. Although the more I find out the more I feel some of these things were answers that were contrived by Jordan or Sanderson to make up for inconsistencies in storytelling. Which is perfectly alright. It his his story and god knows other writers have done the same thing. But it kinda ruins the story for me. Still..... I could have done without your tone ;)

 

I have thought the same thing about some of your counterposts. I appologize but it's just how it comes across.

[Finnssss22]

Just a couple of things.

 

Lanfear was known to be on par with the power as Ishy and Demy and it is even alluded to that she may have been even above them possibly even on par with LTT himself. Is has been said more than a few times that Lanfear went to great measures to hide her true level with the power.

 

Nynaeve was on par with Moggy but it was also stated that Moggy and Asmo were the weakest in the one power of the 13.

 

It has also been revealed that there are at least two other women so far even stronger then Nynaeve.

Ayliss (spelling) and one of the Windfinders that came to use the Bowl of the Winds.

 

Logain and Taim have both been said to be not very far below Rand either but that was also some time ago in the grand scheme of things.

Rand felt that Taim was only a hair below him but he also had suspicions that Taim was holding back.

 

However, all this said, it does very much seem to me that Rand can indeed hold even more of the power then he could previously. That he was holding even more power at the end of tGS than he did when cleansing Sadin seems a fair indication imo.

As others have mentioned though, it could very well just be now that him and LTT are finally "fused", he simply has the full awareness and knowledge of LTT's 400+ years of experience with the power now.

 

On a whole other note, what about Hawkwing's sword, Justice, that is mentioned by the Seanchan. Only tidbits here and there but it is definitely stated that Rand is supposed to wield it.

The biggest issue I have with some of the Seanchan "prophecies" though is that theirs stated that the Dragon Reborn will serve the Empress yet the ones on this side of the ocean say Rand will bind the 9 moons to him.

Matt marrying Tuon, the Daughter of the 9 Moons, could be viewed as Rand binding her I guess, meaning he has to still swear to fealty to Tuon the Empress?

I dunno, just thinking out loud now, I'll shut up ;)

[Suttree]

On a whole other note, what about Hawkwing's sword, Justice, that is mentioned by the Seanchan. Only tidbits here and there but it is definitely stated that Rand is supposed to wield it.

The biggest issue I have with some of the Seanchan "prophecies" though is that theirs stated that the Dragon Reborn will serve the Empress yet the ones on this side of the ocean say Rand will bind the 9 moons to him.

Matt marrying Tuon, the Daughter of the 9 Moons, could be viewed as Rand binding her I guess, meaning he has to still swear to fealty to Tuon the Empress?

I dunno, just thinking out loud now, I'll shut up ;)

 

Rand is currently wielding Justice. It was found beneath a submerged statue and given to him by a group of scholars. As for the Seanchan prophecies, Ishamael had a hand in corrupting them.

[Finnssss22]

 

Rand is currently wielding Justice. It was found beneath a submerged statue and given to him by a group of scholars. As for the Seanchan prophecies, Ishamael had a hand in corrupting them.

 

Good points, especially on Ishy and the Seanchan prof's.

 

It's just speculation on Justice though isn't it? I don't remember previous passages about it aside from the most recent one with him thinking on it, the surprise of it and thinking about how to use it with only one hand.

Definitely fits though and I'm not saying there isn't more info, I'm not arrogantly thinking I couldn't of missed it heh.

[Suttree]

 

Rand is currently wielding Justice. It was found beneath a submerged statue and given to him by a group of scholars. As for the Seanchan prophecies, Ishamael had a hand in corrupting them.

 

Good points, especially on Ishy and the Seanchan prof's.

 

It's just speculation on Justice though isn't it? I don't remember previous passages about it aside from the most recent one with him thinking on it, the surprise of it and thinking about how to use it with only one hand.

Definitely fits though and I'm not saying there isn't more info, I'm not arrogantly thinking I couldn't of missed it heh.

 

 

TGS

Ch.1

He had taken to wearing the sword immediately. It felt right beneath his fingers. He had told no one, not even Min, that he had recognized the weapon. And not, oddly, from Lews Therin’s memories—but Rand’s own.

 

Speculated that he recognizes the sword from Falme when the Heroes were called, based on it being from Rand's own memories.

 

BS has also confirmed the sword is indeed Justice.

[Finnssss22]

TGS

Ch.1

He had taken to wearing the sword immediately. It felt right beneath his fingers. He had told no one, not even Min, that he had recognized the weapon. And not, oddly, from Lews Therin’s memories—but Rand’s own.

 

Speculated that he recognizes the sword from Falme when the Heroes were called, based on it being from Rand's own memories.

 

BS has also confirmed the sword is indeed Justice.

 

Gotcha, like I said it, all made sense for sure but the BS confirmation settles it.

Thanks.

[Suttree]

TGS

Ch.1

He had taken to wearing the sword immediately. It felt right beneath his fingers. He had told no one, not even Min, that he had recognized the weapon. And not, oddly, from Lews Therin’s memories—but Rand’s own.

 

Speculated that he recognizes the sword from Falme when the Heroes were called, based on it being from Rand's own memories.

 

BS has also confirmed the sword is indeed Justice.

 

Gotcha, like I said it, all made sense for sure but the BS confirmation settles it.

Thanks.

 

No worries mate, welcome to DM!

 

Also in relation to binding the 9 Moons. As Mr. Ares recently noted in a post, now that Fortuona is now longer the "Daughter" of the 9 Moons it is now possible for Rand to bind her to him.

[mbuehner]

 

And I'd advise paying more attention to the content rather than the spelling and the grammar.

 

I'm terribly sorry that I haven't combed through every single word of the series multiple times and read and re read every single interview or question answer that Jordan or Sanderson ever gave. I'm entitled to have an opinion. And I'm allowed to express that opinion. When I'm shown to be wrong I will acknowledge as much as I do now. Although the more I find out the more I feel some of these things were answers that were contrived by Jordan or Sanderson to make up for inconsistencies in storytelling. Which is perfectly alright. It his his story and god knows other writers have done the same thing. But it kinda ruins the story for me. Still..... I could have done without your tone ;)

 

As soon as you start correcting someone's spelling on a chat board, you are asking for a world of snippy tone. That being said, it is an obscure point (if an important one) regarding the nature of balefire and the human soul. I personally think it works better metaphysically. It would be pretty awful to have a world where a person soul could be eternally wiped out.

[andrewatk]

Power, knowledge -- and skill. Break it down.

 

Raw power comes from the One Power and how much of it you can hold and channel. Rand's top of the list among humans. No issues there.

 

Knowledge of weaves is a tool kit. It determines which specific things you can do with the power. Rand, with Lews Therin's memories, has already called up weaves unseen since the Age of Legends. He's got the biggest tool kit in Lightville.

 

Skill is the final component. There are powerful Aes Sedai who were taught Healing in the Tower, but who still don't have much ability with it. You could give my brother Ron the best tool kit in the world, and he'd stab himself with a screwdriver. There are no doubt some folks whose arms are as strong as Peyton Manning's, and who know the rules of NFL football, but how many of them could actually thread a pass between two defenders while the pocket is collapsing around them? Rand has got the skills, the ability to use those weaves to effect.

 

I don't think Rand will defeat the Dark One with raw power. I think he's going to pull off some sneaky tricks with original weaves, playing the One Power like Joe Bonamassa on a Gibson Les Paul. The Dark One's last thoughts as his prison closes around him will be "What the HELL was that???"

 

 

I think CURSES - FOILED AGAIN! would be a much better "last words" for the Dark One. :-)

[Jblaylock]

Rand should have all of his coats embroidered across the back shoulders with "HOLD ON TO YOUR M-F'IN BOOTS, MAN!"

[johthohar]

I have thought the same thing about some of your counterposts. I appologize but it's just how it comes across.

 

As soon as you start correcting someone's spelling on a chat board, you are asking for a world of snippy tone. That being said, it is an obscure point (if an important one) regarding the nature of balefire and the human soul. I personally think it works better metaphysically. It would be pretty awful to have a world where a person soul could be eternally wiped out.

 

Once again I am doomed by my sarcastic nature and the difficulty of conveying tone via text. I try to use smileys or wink and that other crap when I can so that people know I'm joking but I find them too teenqueen-ish (for lack of a better word). It has been pointed out to be that I'm too confrontational, so, this is me apologizing publicly to anyone I might have offended. I've always liked debating and I do get a bit too passionate sometimes. And then a little bitter when I lose. But 99% of the time if it sounds like I'm being a jerk I'm just joking around. Blame it on my upbringing. [mutter]stupid parents[/mutter].

 

I would like the "eternally wiped out" balefire better. I guess because it meshes easier with my pessimistic/narcissistic/cynic mindset. I like darker worlds better like aSoIaF or Sanderson's new Stormlight Archive series. And looking back on the WoT series as a whole it is simply too happy-go-lucky for my tastes.

[Elan Tedronai]

Interesting point on the ta'averen affect. We will have to find out in AMoL if that is indeed the case or if it is something else altogether.

 

I wonder if Ishamael has the other sa'angreal hidden away for a rainy occasion...He had a very impressive collection of OP items and had nearly 3000 years on and off to collect them.

 

We saw that even Lanfear had a near sa'angreal on her...which Moraine now has.

 

there is no taveren or sangreal issue.

 

rand al thor is no longer the same rand al thor. we are talking lord of the morning here. a man who can kill in thousand different ways with saidin. Coupled with his strength in the power and you have a man you don't wanna face in the open field. Unless ofcourse you are Moridin in which case, it would be prudent to get the hell away from the zone of confrontation and the surrounding areas ASAP

[AlwaysLurking]

I am new to these types of forums, but I have read the books and I have been considering this very apparent Rand Power up in detail.

 

It is impossible to rule out a third power at play here, the Direct Power of the creator. Those that complain that we don’t need another source of power are missing the logical conclusion that should have led them to its existence the moment we found out about the existence of the DO’s power (remember, this is being written by RJ that thinks it is “intuitively obvious” who killed Asmodean).

 

The creator is not going to be male or female, thus he would not have used either side of the OP. Logically then, whatever the Power of the creator is, it was used to create the Wheel + the opposing powers of the OP that drive it and those (males and females) that could access their corresponding side of the OP.

 

From the books and comments made by RJ himself the Creator is “Hands off” as far his dealings with the World he has created, but that does not mean he did not build protections and safeguards into the World itself to deal with the threats that would come. In fact, that is what ta’veren is at its core, a built in safeguard to ensure the correct function of the World (Pattern) and its continued existence.

 

However, the threat from the DO is from outside the Pattern, this does not mean that the Pattern is not enabled to meet external threats, but it is logical that any direct conflict with the DO’s own power could only be met with the Creator’s own power.

 

Therefore by extension the Pattern itself must have access to this Power in order to meet the external threat. I think that the moment in VoG was the point at which the Pattern gave access to this power to its champion, at the point where that champion became capable of using that power properly.

 

This explains why the Chosen of the DO have been told not to kill Rand. It is entirely likely that they can’t do it anyway, the Pattern would prevent its safeguards from being bypassed directly, thus the attempt has always been to corrupt/disable the true objective of the Pattern, which is for the Champion to gain access to the Power that can directly confront the DO (this is my opinion).

 

I think that this difference is hinted at in a Storm of Light “It came too close to a confrontation between us,” Rand said. “That must happen at Shayol Ghul, and at the right time. I cannot afford to let him provoke me” Implied within this statement is that using whatever power he was using to defeat the DO’s armies could provoke the confrontation, and that Rand now had a deeper knowledge of both what this confrontation now entailed and when it was to occur.

 

Cleansing Saiden of the taint, which used magnitudes more power than this, did not provoke this confrontation, so it is not the use of huge amounts of OP that he could have been referring to as causing this direct confrontation. That leaves few alternate conclusions that can be reached than there was something fundamentally different in (or about) the Power he was using. And the way that Rand now has the ability to identify the Servants of the DO indicates that something of great significant happened to Rand at VoG beyond just the full integration LTT and a restoration of the true Rand persona prior to the DO’s attempt to subvert him. The Pattern spun out, Forged (Thru Rands trials and upbringing), and Empowered the tool (Rand) required to safe guard itself from destruction.

 

I know that there is no explicit mention of a 3rd source of power in the Wheel of Time universe, but its existence has been implicit from the very beginning.

 

This also easily addresses the concern that several have expressed over the continued existences, post Shayol Ghul, that many have. Once the need no longer exists for its Champion to have access to the Power to confront the DO directly, it will no longer have it. Rand would then revert to a very powerful wielder of the OP with 400+ years of experience (or more if we throw in all the additional lifetimes he now may remember).

 

With all that said, and I know this is getting long, there is another possibility that could address this, and it comes from the clues in Aviendha's Vision concerning her children holding the power continually. This ability had to come from somwhere, and the logical place would be from Rand and what occurred VoG. This would certainly explain why he was not afraid of being cut off from Saidin at the White Tower, he cant be, as he always holds it and also possibly explain his great increase in apparent power (his increase in skill is likely from his memories). But this explanation still does not fully satisfy all the other apparent differences in the usage of the power I mentioned above and have been mentioned elsewhere in this post.