The White Tower - Seanchan Attack

[fikkie77]

For me, the fact that Elaida showed Travelling to Fortuona, is proof that she's mentally very weak and unfit to be Aes Sedai at all. She would fail the test for the shawl if she had to do it again.

The three oaths would prevent her using the One Power as a weapon... The only thing she had to do was to imagine how large of a weapon Travelling would be for the Seanchan. If she had, she couldn't have shown it to Fotuona or her sul'dam.

That's not how the Oaths work. There's nothing in them about not teaching others whatever you want. As long the Aes Sedai herself is not using the weave as a weapon on someone, she can teach anyone any weave, including balefire, fireball, etc.

 

Plus Travelling in itself, even if used to transport troops for an attack, is not considered a weapon by the Aes Sedai, Egwene commented on that in TGS.

It's exactly how the oaths work! It's not about lying, using the OP as a weapon or making a weapon out of the OP. It's whether the mind thinks whether those things are about to happen. If you believe that green is blue, then you can say it. If you believe a sword is not a weapon, you can still make a power-wrought sword! If Elaida made herself believe that a gateway is a weapon, she couldn't have made one herself.

[capuga]

For me, the fact that Elaida showed Travelling to Fortuona, is proof that she's mentally very weak and unfit to be Aes Sedai at all. She would fail the test for the shawl if she had to do it again.

The three oaths would prevent her using the One Power as a weapon... The only thing she had to do was to imagine how large of a weapon Travelling would be for the Seanchan. If she had, she couldn't have shown it to Fotuona or her sul'dam.

That's not how the Oaths work. There's nothing in them about not teaching others whatever you want. As long the Aes Sedai herself is not using the weave as a weapon on someone, she can teach anyone any weave, including balefire, fireball, etc.

 

Plus Travelling in itself, even if used to transport troops for an attack, is not considered a weapon by the Aes Sedai, Egwene commented on that in TGS.

It's exactly how the oaths work! It's not about lying, using the OP as a weapon or making a weapon out of the OP. It's whether the mind thinks whether those things are about to happen. If you believe that green is blue, then you can say it. If you believe a sword is not a weapon, you can still make a power-wrought sword! If Elaida made herself believe that a gateway is a weapon, she couldn't have made one herself.

 

What you are saying is true - If an Aes Sedai believed that Traveling was a weapon, than they would not be able to use it as such. However, I seriously doubt that any Aes Sedai would actually believe this. I think it unlikely that they would view it as a weapon even if they were using it to transport troops in a battle. I know I wouldn't - I would view Traveling as a transport tool and not something I am wielding as a weapon.

 

And even if Traveling were considered a weapon, teaching it is not using it as a weapon. A fireball is certainly a weapon, but they are able to teach their novices how to form a fireball. They just can't throw the fireball at the novice.

 

I agree that the Oaths work on perception - I've argued this several times on this thread. I just doubt that anyone would actually perceive the use of Traveling as a weapon.

[fikkie77]

I think you're right, though that doesn't improve my view on Elaida. She's been broken very quickly. She still sees herself as Amyrlin (and not as Suffa), but couldn't resist het sul'dam and showed Travelling.

[blazetheearth]

For me, the fact that Elaida showed Travelling to Fortuona, is proof that she's mentally very weak and unfit to be Aes Sedai at all. She would fail the test for the shawl if she had to do it again.

The three oaths would prevent her using the One Power as a weapon... The only thing she had to do was to imagine how large of a weapon Travelling would be for the Seanchan. If she had, she couldn't have shown it to Fotuona or her sul'dam.

That's not how the Oaths work. There's nothing in them about not teaching others whatever you want. As long the Aes Sedai herself is not using the weave as a weapon on someone, she can teach anyone any weave, including balefire, fireball, etc.

 

Plus Travelling in itself, even if used to transport troops for an attack, is not considered a weapon by the Aes Sedai, Egwene commented on that in TGS.

It's exactly how the oaths work! It's not about lying, using the OP as a weapon or making a weapon out of the OP. It's whether the mind thinks whether those things are about to happen. If you believe that green is blue, then you can say it. If you believe a sword is not a weapon, you can still make a power-wrought sword! If Elaida made herself believe that a gateway is a weapon, she couldn't have made one herself.

 

What you are saying is true - If an Aes Sedai believed that Traveling was a weapon, than they would not be able to use it as such. However, I seriously doubt that any Aes Sedai would actually believe this. I think it unlikely that they would view it as a weapon even if they were using it to transport troops in a battle. I know I wouldn't - I would view Traveling as a transport tool and not something I am wielding as a weapon.

 

And even if Traveling were considered a weapon, teaching it is not using it as a weapon. A fireball is certainly a weapon, but they are able to teach their novices how to form a fireball. They just can't throw the fireball at the novice.

 

I agree that the Oaths work on perception - I've argued this several times on this thread. I just doubt that anyone would actually perceive the use of Traveling as a weapon.

 

One caveat, opening a Gateway in such a manner as to cause harm. You know, slicing open the front rank of an army with one, and having it open to the middle of the Aryth so that the soldiers charging in the 2nd and 3rd ranks would fall through to the sea. While it would be effective, an AS could not do it until she, a Sister or her Warder were in danger of their lives.

[Taura-Tierno]

But it wouldn't prevent Elaida from teaching the Seanchan Traveling. Even if she convinced herself that it could be used as a weapon. After all, Siuan demonstrated in TGH that she could create a knife from Air. Just like Traveling, a knife of Air is a tool that could be used as a weapon. Obviously knowing that a weave might be used as a weapon isn't enough to make the third Oath kick in. There is also the obvious teachings of creating lightning, fireballs and things like that, that are very obviously meant to be destructive weapons. As long as it isn't actually used as a weapon, the weave can be formed. So there is no way Elaida could've convinced herself out of being able to demonstrate the weave.

 

And I don't believe that Elaida was inherently weak. She wasn't in New Spring; she was just harsh, maybe a bit too much. But in regards to Siuan and Moiraine, it always seemed to be that she wanted them to become great Aes Sedai, and that that's why she treated them the way she did.

 

I believe that everyone can fall, given the right circumstances. Obviously, being Amyrlin and having the world fall apart around you wasn't Elaida's cup of tea. Not to mention that she believed that her Keeper was a traitor without being able to prove it. It was a lot of pressure, and she couldn't take it. That makes her unsuitable to be Amyrlin Seat, not to be Aes Sedai.

[akira.taylor]

Exactly. Last time they were sent to capture and kill and do as much damage as they could..

 

"I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends and Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or of another sister."

 

That means they'd have to honestly with all their heart think they're going to die..

If the Aes Sedai thinks that being collared is death, then they could.. But they should know otherwise, especially after Egwene (hopefully) explained how the Seanchan work.

 

The tower wouldn't be crumbling, nor would there be Damane/Sul'dam weaving deadly weaves.. I'm pretty sure they'd feel quite a bit less threatened.. The Aes Sedai (At least the novices, but I'm sure the Aes Sedai as well.) thought that the Raken were Shadowspawn, now that they know better, they can't strike first.. Though, with traveling, I doubt that'd use Raken anymore.

 

 

Edit: forgot to add something.

 

In my opinion, Egwene seems to consider being collared a threat to her life. Have you noticed how she reacts when faced with even a remote possibility or being returned to the Seanchan? She goes crazy. In Falme. Near Tar Valon, with Verin, she started blowing up things to scare the Whitecloaks away. During the assault on the White Tower, she even thought to herself that she was in some kind of battle fury. You don't react the way she did unless you feel extremely threatened.

 

I'm not saying that you are technically wrong. You aren't. Being collared is not equal to actual death - but the feeling of being in mortal danger isn't rational. You don't stand around contemplating and calculating whether the current situation will lead to your death unless you use the One Power as a weapon. I had a similar discussion a few years ago. It was about this scenario:

 

And Aes Sedai is out riding in the middle of nowhere. She is stopped by a large group of highway men. The leader of these men says: "I will rob you, Aes Sedai. I swear that I will not kill you; I will simply take your money." My friend thought this would mean that the Aes Sedai couldn't use the One Power as a weapon, as she'd know she wasn't in any danger.

 

I argued that it would depend on the Aes Sedai. One Aes Sedai might not feel threatened enough. She might feel that she could stop them very well without using the OP as a weapon. She might be very strong in Air; that's all good.

 

Say instead that we have an Aes Sedai who, when she was a child, witnessed her whole family being murdered by highway men. Say that this Aes Sedai is extremely weak in Air. I'd say it's a fair bet that she would be able to use the OP as a weapon because, given her history with highway men, she'd have no reason whatsoever to believe him, and if he got close she might very well feel an irrational panic-like fear for her life. Without being able to use Air, she could feel threatened enough to start throwing fireballs instead.

 

My point? It depends on the Aes Sedai. If an Aes Sedai, during the attack, honestly belives that she'll have no trouble defeating a Seanchan party without resorting to lethal weaves, she wouldn't be able to use leathal weaves. But if the fight gets more and more difficult, and soldiers start swarming her to bring her down physically, her perception might change. Being swarmed by soldiers with weapons, and opposed by an enemy who have in the past brutally killed other Aes Sedai, could very well make that Aes Sedai feel threatened enough to use the OP as a weapon.

 

Keep in mind that Egwene seems to suffer from quite severe PTSD after her time as damane, and as a result she tosses all rationality out the window just by hearing about damane. But, until TOM she was the only Aes Sedai in the WT who had had that experience, so it might be difficult for many AS to view collaring as threatening as they should. Which raises the question what it will mean that Teslyn and Edesina just arrived in the WT.

 

Yes, Egwene suffers from something like PTSD - so she can use the One Power as a weapon (in the first attack, she wasn't bound be the Oaths anyway, but it seems like she wouldn't have been stopped regardless). (Novices and Accepted aren't bound by the Three Oaths, so they can kill raken to their heart's content.)

 

I would also note that if one Aes Sedai (say, Egwene) freaks out about the Seanchan, other Aes Sedai could be able to use the One Power as a weapon - on the grounds that the freaked out Aes Sedai knows something they don't ("she thinks her life is in danger, so it must be, even if I don't know why"). (If they realize that the one Aes Sedai is freaked out, that might hinder the matter.)

 

Finally, once collared, Aes Sedai can't act on their own to protect other sisters or their Warders. Thus, if they believe that their Warder(s) will be killed at a future point (basically, as soon as the Seanchan figure out they're Warders), then they likely could use the One Power as weapon. ("If I don't use the One Power as a weapon to save him now, I won't be able to later, and he'll die.") It is a last resort, because they know that they can't take any other actions later. As for whether the Seanchan will kill the Warders - they'd have to be crazy not to, since the Warders would all try to free the Aes Sedai damane, and kill Seanchan troops (so the Warders might just get killed for fighting). The Aes Sedai would probably figure this out or assume it to be the case.

[gary0044187]

I find it funny that the AS have done so much work to use logic to imply untruths without lying but have taken no efforts to do the same about the power as a weapon oath.

[jmikea]

I find it funny that the AS have done so much work to use logic to imply untruths without lying but have taken no efforts to do the same about the power as a weapon oath.

The need to blow something to smithereens hasn't come up in their history nearly as often as the need to lie. And some of them have already demonstrated the easy way to get around the oath; when you intentionally put yourself in harm's way, you're free to defend your life. In essence, all the oaths really mean is that they can't attack you first.

 

It would not surprise me to find that Eggy's been working on them with lines of thought similar to what's been discussed on this thread, building the case through logic and emotion that the Seanchan are a threat to their lives. Such fearmongering (in the guise of educating them about the enemy, of course) would help unite the divided tower against a common enemy as well as enabling them to fight back more effectively when the inevitable conflict finally comes.

[gary0044187]

I find it funny that the AS have done so much work to use logic to imply untruths without lying but have taken no efforts to do the same about the power as a weapon oath.

The need to blow something to smithereens hasn't come up in their history nearly as often as the need to lie. And some of them have already demonstrated the easy way to get around the oath; when you intentionally put yourself in harm's way, you're free to defend your life. In essence, all the oaths really mean is that they can't attack you first.

 

It would not surprise me to find that Eggy's been working on them with lines of thought similar to what's been discussed on this thread, building the case through logic and emotion that the Seanchan are a threat to their lives. Such fearmongering (in the guise of educating them about the enemy, of course) would help unite the divided tower against a common enemy as well as enabling them to fight back more effectively when the inevitable conflict finally comes.

what is hilarious is the fact that they work so hard to get around the oaths that they take, that the value of the oath is stripped. The only thing they get out of them is an early death, because noone really trusts an AS even though they can not tell lies.

[blazetheearth]

I find it funny that the AS have done so much work to use logic to imply untruths without lying but have taken no efforts to do the same about the power as a weapon oath.

The need to blow something to smithereens hasn't come up in their history nearly as often as the need to lie. And some of them have already demonstrated the easy way to get around the oath; when you intentionally put yourself in harm's way, you're free to defend your life. In essence, all the oaths really mean is that they can't attack you first.

 

It would not surprise me to find that Eggy's been working on them with lines of thought similar to what's been discussed on this thread, building the case through logic and emotion that the Seanchan are a threat to their lives. Such fearmongering (in the guise of educating them about the enemy, of course) would help unite the divided tower against a common enemy as well as enabling them to fight back more effectively when the inevitable conflict finally comes.

what is hilarious is the fact that they work so hard to get around the oaths that they take, that the value of the oath is stripped. The only thing they get out of them is an early death, because noone really trusts an AS even though they can not tell lies.

 

I agree completely. That was one reason that I figured Eggy agreeing with Suian about the Oaths was due to something Halima did to her. The Oaths do not help the AS, nor do the Oaths even give the AS a sense of unity the way Suian described, if it did there would not be as much backbiting and politicking in the Tower. The aphorism of "The truth an Aes Sedai tells you is not always the truth you hear." is a prime example of how the Oaths have done nothing to ease the distrust that people feel around them. Even Almen Blunt, a kindly Andoran farmer who helped out a couple of disheveled boys on the Camelyn Road in tEotW and was caring for his sister's orchard in ToM, called the Aes Sedai "witches'. Blunt was not a Whitecloak and in tEotW he didn't agree with the Whitecloaks being in Andor. Andorans have always had a congenial relationship with the Tower, but we still see a farmer who lived within a couple of days of the capital refer to them this way. Obviously the attitudes do not only belong to the Whitecloaks. It would seem that the AS do not care what people think of them either, since they spend no time on PR among commoners. Only wooing the nobility. The Oaths have done nothing to build trust, which according to the BBoBA, was the main reason the Oaths came about in the first place. Seems like someone in the Tower would go, "This plan about building trust with the Oaths isn't working. It's been almost 2000 years but people still don't trust us. Maybe we should do something different." But I suppose that them having this realization is giving them too much credit.

[kristineaskada]

amazing how some people are relishing over the prospect of the those slave thugs from seandar attacking the white tower. The same people who keep banging about the need for co=operation amongst all light forces to aid rand al thor in his quest to save the world.

 

Ah well more power to them. Hopefully this time, those slave owners get smashed up for good this time.

 

Ah, another Aes Sedai apologist has climbed aboard. Welcome aboard.

 

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

 

I don't know if it's necessarily 'ignoring' Aes Sedai's faults as much as being completely opposed to the Seanchan faults. Both sides have their glaring fault: Aes Sedai have the arrogance and manipulative natures and Seanchan has the belief that channellers are not to be trusted with the power they have. But, while I totally agree that Aes Sedai need to be put in their place and learn a big lesson in humility, the Seanchan think that it is right to leash people and control them simply because they were born a certain way. That is a more glaring fault compared to AS. I would like Seanchan if it weren't for that fact. I can respect their discipline and their honor system, it is actually very similar to the Ael. I think it is superior to the AS system. But what makes them think that controlling someone who channels is better than the channeller herself? If they feel chanelling is so wrong, what difference should it make on who is controlling the channelling? If they were truly working on honor and what's right, they wouldn't allow channelling period. But, they allow it because it's something that they can use to their own advantage. And ages building on this belief has erased the original purpose of this so that now every Seanchan is ingrained with the belief that what they are doing is honorable and right.

Just my opinion, but you shouldn't be so quick to step on people because they choose a side. It doesn't have anything to do with being PC. It's just your own beliefs. : )

[andrewatk]

Those were rogue channellers, mostly, not the Aes Sedai of the White Tower. Why not say the Windfinders and the Wise Ones must also be leashed? They all have their own arrogance, if that's your beef with them.

 

It doesn't matter if they were 'rogue channelers'. They called themselves Aes Sedai so as far as the Seanchan are concerned...they were Aes Sedai.

 

 

In considering the position of the Seanchan on the Aes Sedai, keep in mind that their hero/ancestor Artur Hawkwing is the guy that laid seige to Tar Valon and put a price on the head of all Aes Sedai. Both things were at the instigation of Ishy, which should give you an idea of how good they are for the Lightside. I think the Seanchan attitude toward channelers has as much to do with Ishy's manipulations (he's also apparently the guy that distorted their propophecies) than anything else.

[kristineaskada]

Yeah, kind of hard to pick who to root for here. Its like watching two teams you don't like playing in the Super Bowl - you don't really want either of them to have the glory of winning a championship.

 

I'd like to see the Aes Sedai forced to notice and acknowledge their shortcomings but I feel the same about the Seanchan and I hate that they treat a group of people as sub-human. I guess what I am hoping for is that both sides are forced to admit they have areas that are wrong and that they all work to compromise with Rand and the rest of the world to give the Light the strongest chance to win the Last Battle.

 

You may yet get your wish. I think the way things will go down is like this: Seanchan attack an unprepared White Tower, helping Egwene come back down from her lofty perch and realizing her mistakes. Then, Mat intervenes with Tuon and helps her realize the error of her ways (IMO, this is precisely the reason why Jordan wanted for these 2 to marry. Otherwise, that whole subplot wouldn't make any sense).

 

Tuon and Egwene get one last, little push from Rand to put their differences aside (at least for the time being) and come together to face the Last Battle. The question, IMO, would be if there's still enough time for the forces of the Light to get properly organized, because at this point I'd think it's clear they're far from doing just that and, when one thinks about it, it's the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan who are at the forefront of the main differences in the Randland at this point. So, for better or worse, that conflict needs to happen and be resolved so they can all move on to the really important conflict at hand.

 

There's evidence I believe to support most of what you said.

 

#1 In TOM when Mat's in the Towers of Ghenjei and the Eelfinn that tears his eye out says, "And the gambler becomes the center of all. I can taste fate itself" blah blah blah.

 

#2 This ones a lot more vague and requires putting a bunch of things together but it's based on Min's viewing in some book (?) where she sees Elayne and a severed hand. There's always the possibility that I'm wrong but this severed hand is The Band of the Red Hand I believe. At the end of TOM the band is split in two. One part is with Elayne (ie the severed hand), the others with Talmanes in Caemlyn.

 

This is where it gets flunky. For this viewing of Min's to be true, Talmanes and the Band that's in Caemlyn, kinda has to fall. Cue the one eyed fool walking the Halls of Mourning prophecy we get at the end of TOM.

 

Here's why Talmanes and this part of the Band has to fall: Absent the Band in Caemlyn falling, Mat will reject any offers of being the Light's Supreme General. His response is simply, "I can't do it. My responsibility is to the Band" Well, Jordan will remove this 'problem' for Mat because Mat has to be the Supreme General of the Light, none of the Great Captains will stand a chance against Demandrad and subsequently the Light would lose. The Pattern just simply won't let this happen.

 

The remaining members of the Band will be Mat's presonal bodyguard the same as the Band was at the end of the Trolloc Wars for King Aemon before they fell.

 

Anyways, put those two viewings/prophecies together and you have Mat accepting the role of Supreme General of the Light and this includes the Seanchan's forces as well. Tuon and Rand already know Mat's the man when it comes to generalship so I don't think this is something they will disagree on :). It also gives us insight into why the 'gambler becomes the center of all'. I also think this is the reason Teslyn and Joline particurly were given light into the fact that yeah, if you want someone leading your forces, it's Matrim Cauthon. This will allow the Aes Sedai on their testomony, to wisely accept Mat as their General ;p.

 

Of course, outside #1 and #2 'prophecies/viewings' this is just all speculation. But I have always believed that Mat will be the Supreme General of the Light and the only General for the Light that has a chance against Demandrad on the field. The only other person who would stand a chance that you could argue would be Lews Therin I believe, but he has other things to be about - breaking the seals/facing Moridin/the Dark One. Just imagine how mad Demandrads going to be when it's not Rand that's facing him on the field/in battles like he'll want, but a gambler named Matrim Cauthon lol.

 

I love your theories/speculation. I love Mat and it will be awesome to see him show everyone that he's not just a childish prankster. : )

[asha man]

In considering the position of the Seanchan on the Aes Sedai, keep in mind that their hero/ancestor Artur Hawkwing is the guy that laid seige to Tar Valon and put a price on the head of all Aes Sedai. Both things were at the instigation of Ishy, which should give you an idea of how good they are for the Lightside. I think the Seanchan attitude toward channelers has as much to do with Ishy's manipulations (he's also apparently the guy that distorted their propophecies) than anything else.

 

Amen to that. He was also the guy that got Hawkwing to send Hawkwing's armies over to Seanchan. The relevant quote from TEOTW: "I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed..."

 

Hooray for the Shadow! They'll show those uppity Aes Sedai!

 

Also, isn't there a contradiction in thinking that it's okay to enslave all female channelers because of the way they manipulate people? It seems to me that the Seanchan empire is just as guilty of everything that they accuse the Aes Sedai of doing. The Blood plot against each other to such an extent that Tuon is freaked out by the fact that Beslan isn't considering her assassination. And the damane aren't the only slaves they keep by a long shot - look what they did with Amathera. If anything, the Seanchan are just better at manipulating people, and their brainwash heavy caste system keep everything from blowing up in their faces.

 

Yes, the Aes Sedai have made a huge number of mistakes. (For example the oath "I will never follow the Shadow" would have saved a lot of heartache.) Who hasn't? (Maybe the Tinkers?) If you can make a good argument for why Nyneave should be collared, then I'll accept the arguments of the 'Seanchan apologists'. And eat Mat's hat.

[capuga]

Yes, the Aes Sedai have made a huge number of mistakes. (For example the oath "I will never follow the Shadow" would have saved a lot of heartache.) Who hasn't? (Maybe the Tinkers?)

 

Pretty sure we've seen a Tinker at the Darkfriend socials. And Aram goes from Tinker to something pretty much as bad as a darkfriend (although I still mostly just feel sorry for him).

[bandaidctrl]

To be honest, while i'm not looking forward to the attack, in some way i'm actually happy it's going to happen. I think Egwene has been a bit full of herself as of late and the Aes Sedai need a wake up call ASAP.

 

In the end however, I hope the Seanchan aren't victorious, I believe they are whole heartedly misguided and they too need a wake up call, in a sense I hope to see the WT broken and rebuilt into something better, and for the Seanchan to realize that they're just as much to fault as anyone else

[andrewatk]

To be honest, while i'm not looking forward to the attack, in some way i'm actually happy it's going to happen. I think Egwene has been a bit full of herself as of late and the Aes Sedai need a wake up call ASAP.

 

In the end however, I hope the Seanchan aren't victorious, I believe they are whole heartedly misguided and they too need a wake up call, in a sense I hope to see the WT broken and rebuilt into something better, and for the Seanchan to realize that they're just as much to fault as anyone else

 

 

I think a Seanchan vs. The White Tower Rematch would be both boring and distracting filler. I suspect that some sort of tav'eran induced event will result in that strike force being redirected toward fighting The Shadow in the Last Battle.

 

BTW, the White Tower was ALREADY broken, it is is already being built into something better, even if reform will take time and will likely always be incomplete (no such thing as a perfect organization).

[asha man]

Yes, the Aes Sedai have made a huge number of mistakes. (For example the oath "I will never follow the Shadow" would have saved a lot of heartache.) Who hasn't? (Maybe the Tinkers?)

 

Pretty sure we've seen a Tinker at the Darkfriend socials. And Aram goes from Tinker to something pretty much as bad as a darkfriend (although I still mostly just feel sorry for him).

 

You got me. Better turn all the tinkers into da'covale

[capuga]

Yes, the Aes Sedai have made a huge number of mistakes. (For example the oath "I will never follow the Shadow" would have saved a lot of heartache.) Who hasn't? (Maybe the Tinkers?)

 

Pretty sure we've seen a Tinker at the Darkfriend socials. And Aram goes from Tinker to something pretty much as bad as a darkfriend (although I still mostly just feel sorry for him).

 

You got me. Better turn all the tinkers into da'covale

 

Welcome to the boards by the way.

[gary0044187]

To be honest, while i'm not looking forward to the attack, in some way i'm actually happy it's going to happen. I think Egwene has been a bit full of herself as of late and the Aes Sedai need a wake up call ASAP.

 

In the end however, I hope the Seanchan aren't victorious, I believe they are whole heartedly misguided and they too need a wake up call, in a sense I hope to see the WT broken and rebuilt into something better, and for the Seanchan to realize that they're just as much to fault as anyone else

 

 

I think a Seanchan vs. The White Tower Rematch would be both boring and distracting filler. I suspect that some sort of tav'eran induced event will result in that strike force being redirected toward fighting The Shadow in the Last Battle.

 

BTW, the White Tower was ALREADY broken, it is is already being built into something better, even if reform will take time and will likely always be incomplete (no such thing as a perfect organization).

right now fortuona is gathering her armies and her damane for an attack on the wt, seems to fit perfectly with rand's need for her forces at TG.

[SvetSedi]

I can respect their discipline and their honor system, it is actually very similar to the Ael. I think it is superior to the AS system.

 

I agree that they are similar in several interesting ways

 

 

what makes them think that controlling someone who channels is better than the channeller herself? If they feel chanelling is so wrong, what difference should it make on who is controlling the channelling? If they were truly working on honor and what's right, they wouldn't allow channelling period. But, they allow it because it's something that they can use to their own advantage.

 

 

This is the typical hypocrisy of the Seanchans. We have seen several channelers that thought all female channelers need to be collared - until they find out that they can channel themselves - then it is "they will have to catch me first" or "I'm different because I will choose not to channel."

 

 

 

Edited to add:

 

At least Arthur Hawkwing was good enough to refuse Channeler healing - which would have saved him.

 

 

 

As far as Ishy twisting the Seanchan - well that is probably true, just as he twisted the WT through the BA. The DO has had his hand in both pots.

I would still take the bad aspects of the WT over the Seanchan. Sure the WT has been twisted by the Black, but they were still trying to work for the light & not just in it just for themselves. You can see that by the sacrifices they go through in training.

 

The Seanchan on the other hand took what Ishy fed them and made it even worse.

[randsc]

Yeah, kind of hard to pick who to root for here. Its like watching two teams you don't like playing in the Super Bowl - you don't really want either of them to have the glory of winning a championship.

 

I'd like to see the Aes Sedai forced to notice and acknowledge their shortcomings but I feel the same about the Seanchan and I hate that they treat a group of people as sub-human. I guess what I am hoping for is that both sides are forced to admit they have areas that are wrong and that they all work to compromise with Rand and the rest of the world to give the Light the strongest chance to win the Last Battle.

 

You may yet get your wish. I think the way things will go down is like this: Seanchan attack an unprepared White Tower, helping Egwene come back down from her lofty perch and realizing her mistakes. Then, Mat intervenes with Tuon and helps her realize the error of her ways (IMO, this is precisely the reason why Jordan wanted for these 2 to marry. Otherwise, that whole subplot wouldn't make any sense).

 

Tuon and Egwene get one last, little push from Rand to put their differences aside (at least for the time being) and come together to face the Last Battle. The question, IMO, would be if there's still enough time for the forces of the Light to get properly organized, because at this point I'd think it's clear they're far from doing just that and, when one thinks about it, it's the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan who are at the forefront of the main differences in the Randland at this point. So, for better or worse, that conflict needs to happen and be resolved so they can all move on to the really important conflict at hand.

 

There's evidence I believe to support most of what you said.

 

#1 In TOM when Mat's in the Towers of Ghenjei and the Eelfinn that tears his eye out says, "And the gambler becomes the center of all. I can taste fate itself" blah blah blah.

 

#2 This ones a lot more vague and requires putting a bunch of things together but it's based on Min's viewing in some book (?) where she sees Elayne and a severed hand. There's always the possibility that I'm wrong but this severed hand is The Band of the Red Hand I believe. At the end of TOM the band is split in two. One part is with Elayne (ie the severed hand), the others with Talmanes in Caemlyn.

 

This is where it gets flunky. For this viewing of Min's to be true, Talmanes and the Band that's in Caemlyn, kinda has to fall. Cue the one eyed fool walking the Halls of Mourning prophecy we get at the end of TOM.

 

Here's why Talmanes and this part of the Band has to fall: Absent the Band in Caemlyn falling, Mat will reject any offers of being the Light's Supreme General. His response is simply, "I can't do it. My responsibility is to the Band" Well, Jordan will remove this 'problem' for Mat because Mat has to be the Supreme General of the Light, none of the Great Captains will stand a chance against Demandrad and subsequently the Light would lose. The Pattern just simply won't let this happen.

 

The remaining members of the Band will be Mat's presonal bodyguard the same as the Band was at the end of the Trolloc Wars for King Aemon before they fell.

 

Anyways, put those two viewings/prophecies together and you have Mat accepting the role of Supreme General of the Light and this includes the Seanchan's forces as well. Tuon and Rand already know Mat's the man when it comes to generalship so I don't think this is something they will disagree on :). It also gives us insight into why the 'gambler becomes the center of all'. I also think this is the reason Teslyn and Joline particurly were given light into the fact that yeah, if you want someone leading your forces, it's Matrim Cauthon. This will allow the Aes Sedai on their testomony, to wisely accept Mat as their General ;p.

 

Of course, outside #1 and #2 'prophecies/viewings' this is just all speculation. But I have always believed that Mat will be the Supreme General of the Light and the only General for the Light that has a chance against Demandrad on the field. The only other person who would stand a chance that you could argue would be Lews Therin I believe, but he has other things to be about - breaking the seals/facing Moridin/the Dark One. Just imagine how mad Demandrads going to be when it's not Rand that's facing him on the field/in battles like he'll want, but a gambler named Matrim Cauthon lol.

 

I love your theories/speculation. I love Mat and it will be awesome to see him show everyone that he's not just a childish prankster. : )

 

Add to that that there are a large number of the Sea Folk who believe that Mat is a "great and good man."

[blazetheearth]

I can respect their discipline and their honor system, it is actually very similar to the Ael. I think it is superior to the AS system.

 

I agree that they are similar in several interesting ways

 

 

what makes them think that controlling someone who channels is better than the channeller herself? If they feel chanelling is so wrong, what difference should it make on who is controlling the channelling? If they were truly working on honor and what's right, they wouldn't allow channelling period. But, they allow it because it's something that they can use to their own advantage.

 

 

This is the typical hypocrisy of the Seanchans. We have seen several channelers that thought all female channelers need to be collared - until they find out that they can channel themselves - then it is "they will have to catch me first" or "I'm different because I will choose not to channel."

 

 

 

Edited to add:

 

At least Arthur Hawkwing was good enough to refuse Channeler healing - which would have saved him.

 

 

 

As far as Ishy twisting the Seanchan - well that is probably true, just as he twisted the WT through the BA. The DO has had his hand in both pots.

I would still take the bad aspects of the WT over the Seanchan. Sure the WT has been twisted by the Black, but they were still trying to work for the light & not just in it just for themselves. You can see that by the sacrifices they go through in training.

 

The Seanchan on the other hand took what Ishy fed them and made it even worse.

 

"Sure the WT has been twisted by the Black, but they were still trying to work for the light & not just in it just for themselves. You can see that by the sacrifices they go through in training."

 

What sacrifices???? Giving up who they had been before joining the WT? What other sacrifice do the AS have? And how is that sacrifice bigger than the sacrifice that damane have? Most AS gain stature from becoming AS, not sacrificing their stature because of becoming AS, while only a few lose stature because of it. If you are referring to Eggy's treatment during TGS, then I would say that you are as hypocritical as she is. She continually thinks of her time as a prisoner as being typical of a Novice or Accepted. Everytime one of the WO refereto "wetlanders as soft", Eggy thinks about her own butt, as though her treatment was typical of what Novices or Accepted must face.

 

Even those that are not 'Black Ajah' work as much at politicking (i.e. in-fighting) as they ever have (including Eggy) amongst themselves, just as they have for over 2000 years. Even though Eggy knows that the LB is coming, she spends almost as much time dealing with politics as Elayne does in ToM,

 

How did the the Seanchan make it "even worse" ? ishy set them up over 1000 years ago, and we have no proof that the woman who created the original a'dam was not a a DF under Ishy's influence. Ishy claims to have 'sealed two dooms' with his influence over Hawkwing because of sending the Armies across the Ocean .Which 2 dooms is he referring to? Tuon and Mat or Rand and someone else.

[asha man]

Which 2 dooms is he referring to?

 

He says that the first doom was the death of a dream of one land and one people. I believe he means that Hawkwing's empire collapsed because he sent his heir across the ocean. Had Luthair(?) stayed with his army he probably would have been able to keep the Empire together on Rand's side of the ocean.

 

On a different tangent, when Mat sends off the Aes Sedai he rescued from Ebou Dar they take some former sul'dam (Bethamin and Seta, I think) with them. As they're leaving Mat says something about them helping him figure out how to bring the knowledge that sul'dam are really damane back into the empire without destroying the Seanchan. They seem to accept this as something like an order from the Prince of Ravens, and it looks like they're going to make it their life purpose.

 

Those two are heading to the White Tower to train with the Aes Sedai, along with Egeanin. I'm sure they'll have come up with something for Mat and I'll bet they arrive at the Tower in time for the second Seanchan attack.

[asha man]

Yes, the Aes Sedai have made a huge number of mistakes. (For example the oath "I will never follow the Shadow" would have saved a lot of heartache.) Who hasn't? (Maybe the Tinkers?)

 

Pretty sure we've seen a Tinker at the Darkfriend socials. And Aram goes from Tinker to something pretty much as bad as a darkfriend (although I still mostly just feel sorry for him).

 

You got me. Better turn all the tinkers into da'covale

 

Welcome to the boards by the way.

 

 

Thanks.