why all the hating on Egwene

[blazetheearth]

I found the thread where a post talks about her having 'shifting loyalties' and when I read the post the first thing that I thought of was a blank-slate identity, where she has no identity of her own, she just copycats her way through. She learns quick, and that really helps her pull of the mimicry.

 

The post was pulled from 'Towers of Midnight' section the 'Discuss Egwene' thread the poster (Mark Grayson) says he copied it from another post of his. He did update it for ToM, but I have removed those sections for posting here. To see the original post, see the referenced thread, post # 37.

 

Posted this in another thread but thought it was relevant here:

 

The female character that annoys me the most is easily Egwene. This is for two main reasons - her hypocrisy and her easily shifting loyalties.

 

First, the hypocrisy. There are two instances that really bother me. One, she criticizes Elaida (for wanting) and the Black Ajah hunters (for actually performing) an obedience oath. This is after she blackmailed sisters into swearing fealty to her. And with the Three Oaths a spoken vow is almost as binding as one given on the Oath Rod. It would have been nice if we had seen some kind of justification for this contradiction in her POV but she doesn't appear to even consider this. Instead we just get blatant hypocrisy and her holier than thou attitude. Secondly, in tGS several Aes Sedai ask her how she would deal with Rand and she impresses them with rational, thoughtful answers and indicates that by being free he has done many good things such as restoring order in Cairhien and uniting several peoples under one leader. She later criticizes Elaida for trying to kidnap Rand and asks her how she thought he would fulfill any prophesies while locked in the tower. However, the words she uses to impress the Aes Sedai and her own beliefs do not match up. In several of her POVs we see that she believes Rand running around free without a White Tower lease is something that needs to end.

 

Second, the easily shifting loyalties. The first instance of this is how easily she shifts her loyalties from Rand to the Aes Sedai and later the Wise Ones. Rand is a man that she loves and spent almost her whole life thinking she was going to marry. However, after very little time with either group it becomes obvious that she begins to put the interests of Aes Sedai and Wise Ones ahead of Rand. She sides with them during any argument. She participates when Moraine and the Wise Ones spy on him with the power and in his dreams. She won't share any information the Wise Ones or Moraine discuss with Rand. Very early in the books its hard to believe that Egwene ever had any feelings for Rand at all.

 

Then look at how easily her interests shift from the Wise Ones to the Aes Sedai. Look at what she knows up through tFoH. The White Tower is apparently rife with Darkfriends. It is full of undeservedly arrogant women who believe they know everything and act foolishly when anyone shows this is not true (such as the way they treat the Wise Ones in T'A'R). The White Tower is broken. Most Aes Sedai appear to be foolish and incompetent. And how long as she even spent at the White Tower? A couple of months before she was tricked by Liandrin and maybe a couple of months more before she leaves to hunt the Black sisters? She spends at least close to as much time with the Wise Ones. And look at how much more superior that time is. The Wise Ones act with intelligence and competence. They show Egwene respect. They teach her skills that the White Tower hasn't had in hundreds of years. They actually are deserving of respect because of their actions and not just their reputation. Then look at Egwene's plans for these women that she supposedly respects and cares for and that have shown their superiority to Aes Sedai. She plans to subjugate them to the White Tower. Her intention is to tie all channeling groups together. Co-operation amongst channeling groups is a worthy goal, however, her POVs make it obvious that she intends all other groups to be under White Tower leadership and control. This is despite the fact that her own experience should have shown that the White Tower doesn't deserve to lead the Wise Ones. Elayne and Nyneaves reports should have shown her that the Kin and Windfinders also are very competent women. Other than possibly the Kin, all of these groups appear to be at least as competent as the White Tower (and I hate the Sea Folk) and would resent being put in a position of inferiority. But she is Aes Sedai now so neither her childhood love or the Wise Ones that actually earned her respect matter much now.

 

One more Egwene item that irritates me - her anger at Rand for allowing Asha-man to bond Aes Sedai. Would she have preferred the alternative? Those sisters were sent to kill everyone at the Black Tower. The Asha-man would have been completely justified to have destroyed every sister but did not because of Rand's orders not to harm Aes Sedai. Rand then goes a further step and offers to allow the Aes Sedai to bond Asha-man to equal out the numbers. However, this isn't good enough for Egwene because the almighty White Tower must be superior to everyone else.

 

By the end of tGS it is hard to argue that Egwene is not awesome. But I never felt that her character deserved that awesomeness. I compare it to a person with poor money management skills that wins the lottery. You can't argue that they're rich, but the didn't really earn that money.

 

Note for those who feel all anti-Egwene arguers are Rand fanboys: None of my arguments above reflect in any way how I feel about Rand. Egwene's actions can be judged as distastful to many regardless of whether or not I like Rand and think he makes mistakes.

 

 

Just to reiterate it. I did edit this post for post-ToM content, and I believe that what is described here is an accurate picture of her and her intent seems to be up to the end of tGS. But of course that is up to The wonderful DM Admins.

 

 

Also from the same thread I will post the other one that made me think if her as a identity copycat - Also from 'Towers of Midnight' 'Discuss Egwene' thread posted by K3lvar post #67 - there is quite a bit in the post as a whole that would contain spoilers, so I will pull only the relevant paragraph.

 

Since the beginning of the WOT I've always felt that Egwene's character had an overinflated sense of self worth and that she was far to malleable a personality to sympathize with. It seems that her first instinct when it comes to Rand is to take up a judgmental position in which she lambasts his decisions regardless of how necessary they may be. This is evident throughout the series.

 

I could also never get a true read on her allegiances throughout the series. It seems that her allegiance lies with whatever organization she is currently a part of. When she left the Two Rivers she immediately became an Aes Sedai apprentice under Moraine. When she was in the White Tower she became an obedient Aes Sedai novice. When she was with the Wise Ones she started to question many of the traditions of the White Tower and began to feel that the Wise Ones had more effective traditions. When she became Amyrlin she became a stereotypical Aes Sedai and abandoned most of the thoughts she had of Aes Sedai while with the Wise Ones.

 

 

I admit that when referencing it originally, I was combing these 2 posts into one in my head and should have taken the time to find the post. And I realize how poorly I transmitted the ideas in these posts, because I was tired and paraphrasing, but I agree with pretty much everything in them.

 

 

edited to remove material

[randsc]

Threads/posts that "bash" a character, I do not see that many on Egwene. Faile seems the most frequent.

 

I think that used to be true. But I think that that changed with this most recent book. Egwene is easily the most hated character in ToM, judging by what you see on the boards.

 

And I think the reason, in part, is that Egwene was an unpleasant character for most of the series, but then seemed to make great strides in the last book. Then, she regressed horribly in this book. It is like watching a recovering drunk fall off the wagon. No one likes to see that.

[Jon Paul]

I think that used to be true. But I think that that changed with this most recent book. Egwene is easily the most heted character in ToM, judging by what you see on the boards.

 

I think Faile bashing has simply been an extension of Perrin-bashing. After all most of the attacks on Faile are in how she relates to Perrin which is quite unfair on Faile's character.

[randsc]

I think that used to be true. But I think that that changed with this most recent book. Egwene is easily the most heted character in ToM, judging by what you see on the boards.

 

I think Faile bashing has simply been an extension of Perrin-bashing. After all most of the attacks on Faile are in how she relates to Perrin which is quite unfair on Faile's character.

 

And, for that matter, most Perrin-bashing is Faile-related.

 

That whole plotline would have been tolerable if in lasted 20-25 pages, in a single book. No way was it worth the time it was given.

[Jack Shaftoe]

And then there's the fact that practically nobody in-story calls her out on her egotism. They'll oppose her politically, sure, but even her staunchest opponents develop a grudging respect personally; her allies outright sing hosannas. Even Rand has people who will pop his bubble at times, and they continue to do so even after he turns into a ruthless psychotic who visibly exudes evil.

 

Yes, there are few things as annoying in fiction as characters who are never called on their mistakes. If Rand or Mat or Elayne or whoever screws up, chances are there would be someone around them to tell them so. Even Tuon, an absolute ruler, has Selucia to do that for her and is generally willing to accept that other people might have a point. Not Egwene. She has an almost pathological obsession with being right and not accepting that she might have made a mistake or two at some point. Add to that her extreme hypocrisy and you get a character that almost makes me feel dirty when I read her PoVs...

 

Another thing I hate about Egwene is how little respect she has for her "friends". Terrifying Nynaeve in T'A'R just to make her keep her secret, thinking that Mat must be in charge of the Band just because Rand has put him there on a whim, never mind she was freaking there when the Band was formed and when even Moiraine praised Mat, etc. Most tellingly there is her approach to Rand. Half the reason she became an Amyrlin was because she is supposed to know him but she treats him as yet another random guy who needs to be manipula...er, guided, because being a man he surely is too stupid to do anything right. Because it's not as if she was around him when he decided he wasn't going to be Moiraine's puppet and as a result he took control of Callandor, slew a few Forsaken and united the Aiel, Cairhien and Tear under his rule. Oh, wait...

 

Mind you, I am not one of those fans who say "Rand is the champion of Light, everyone should shut up and obey him". But the opposite extreme view - that Rand is a bumbling fool is even more shortsighted and dangerous. Heck, even if he does become crazy at some point, this would most likely make him all the more resistant to the idea of Egwene pulling his strings.

[Haran]

Other than her hypocrisy she is also a quite boring character; Strong, powerful, but boring. She has become more powerful, influential and knowledgeable since book one, but she hasn’t changed much. Even her romance is dull at best.

This is what we want from her, some personal growth. And if not that we will settle for having someone smack her down.

[Frostmuse]

Heh, why is it my aside got more answers than my main point? Okay, ask yourself this question: If Egwene was a sweet, kind and gentle girl who studied quietly without question, whose greatest strength is that she is a very quick learner that never challenges anyone's authority and treats everyone with nothing but respect and kindness, would she be a better character?

 

No. It just wouldn't work. She'd never become Amyrlin that way, and she'd be the most boring character in the series.

 

That you dislike Egwene's personality, that's absolutely fine. In fact, it's probably intended to make things more interesting. My misogyny comment is more about the fact that it's Egwene as a character that people take great offence to, without acknowledging the role she's playing in the story: You need a complication somewhere, you need someone to stand up to Rand and say, "Sorry dude, I'm not going to do what you tell me, army or no army" to which "kill everyone" would be a really bad answer. She's not the main hero, the villain, or the monster, but she plays a very important part of the WoT story, a part that would be extremely less interesting if she was a perfectly reasonable person. Does the fact that she's a woman change the basher's perception? I think so. If she was a male character, I don't think it would be quite that hard to distinguish her personality from her role as a character. We're used to seeing highly ambitious, intelligent, few-if-any scruples, do-what-needs-to-be-done male characters, I'm pretty sure TV-tropes has an entire section on them. What RJ did was make it a nice young woman and made us care for her by giving her a humble background that people could identify with and an ambition that is seen as a "positive" trait, and then deconstructing it.

 

That's not a bad thing!

 

Egwene the person: not a nice person

Egwene the character: very effective character

Bashing: confuses one for the other

[randsc]

Does the fact that she's a woman change the basher's perception? I think so. If she was a male character, I don't think it would be quite that hard to distinguish her personality from her role as a character. We're used to seeing highly ambitious, intelligent, few-if-any scruples, do-what-needs-to-be-done male characters, I'm pretty sure TV-tropes has an entire section on them. What RJ did was make it a nice young woman and made us care for her by giving her a humble background that people could identify with and an ambition that is seen as a "positive" trait, and then deconstructing it.

 

This is the part I dispute. I think that a male character that behaved the same way the Egwene does, and whose POVs displayed as little self-reflection, would be equally disliked. Honestly, I think you have the dynamic exactly backward. IMO, the accusations of misogyny come from posters who are unable to see criticisms of Egwene the character as valid, because they cannot stomache criticisms of Egwene the (female) person.

 

Egwene the person: not a nice person

Egwene the character: very effective character

Bashing: confuses one for the other

 

I absolutely agree that Egwene is most likely being written this way on purpose. Though I wonder if RJ/BS didn't fumble a bit and go further than readers will accept of a character that is supposed to be sympathetic.

 

 

But the "bashing" is legit. There is nothing wrong with readers expressing the desire that one of the major "good" characters be written as a less-awful person. And a character could be a good deal less awful than Egwene and still be interesting. If anything, Egwene's uniform awfulness, arrogance and conceit is becoming rather...boring

[Darth Krewl]

That you dislike Egwene's personality, that's absolutely fine. In fact, it's probably intended to make things more interesting. My misogyny comment is more about the fact that it's Egwene as a character that people take great offence to, without acknowledging the role she's playing in the story: You need a complication somewhere, you need someone to stand up to Rand and say, "Sorry dude, I'm not going to do what you tell me, army or no army" to which "kill everyone" would be a really bad answer.

 

Rand's the archetype of the protagonist in your typical Hero's Quest, though in most cases, it's the mentor who puts the hero in his place (Gandalf-Frodo, Yoda-Luke, Morpheus-Neo, etc.) and, since Rand has had no such mentor (IMO, Moiraine, Lan and Cadsuane have split that role), he definitely needs someone to stand up and challenge him. Agreed.

 

That being said, I believe the problem with Egwene here is not that she stands up to Rand but that as Amyrlin Seat, she actually believes herself above the Dragon Reborn and feels like she must lead him. This is clearly not the same as standing up to him. She's probably not to blame for this, since her station has been perceived to be the most powerful in all of the Randland for 3000 yrs. but it's still not right. She must realize that the rules have changed now and it's the Dragon Reborn that the people must follow, for the good of all. I believe she can still stand up and challenge him, while working together, w/o feeling like she knows better than Rand and that she stands above him. At least that's what bothers me about her to no end and what I believe many others dislike greatly about Egwene; her insolence and arrogance.

 

She's not the main hero, the villain, or the monster, but she plays a very important part of the WoT story, a part that would be extremely less interesting if she was a perfectly reasonable person. Does the fact that she's a woman change the basher's perception? I think so. If she was a male character, I don't think it would be quite that hard to distinguish her personality from her role as a character. We're used to seeing highly ambitious, intelligent, few-if-any scruples, do-what-needs-to-be-done male characters, I'm pretty sure TV-tropes has an entire section on them. What RJ did was make it a nice young woman and made us care for her by giving her a humble background that people could identify with and an ambition that is seen as a "positive" trait, and then deconstructing it.

 

Not a hero, a villain nor a monster, exactly. A protagonist? Certainly, but none of those things, agreed.

 

As for the bashing being related to gender? I don't think so. As a big fan of Star Wars, I remember people bashing Anakin Skywalker for similar reasons (his arrogance at believing himself all-powerful, his lust for power, his brashness at throwing himself into danger w/o considering the consequences, etc.) and obviously, Anakin is a male character. So, I for one, don't bash Egwene for her being a woman. I just don't like her personality, regardless of gender.

[Haran]

That you dislike Egwene's personality, that's absolutely fine. In fact, it's probably intended to make things more interesting. My misogyny comment is more about the fact that it's Egwene as a character that people take great offence to, without acknowledging the role she's playing in the story: You need a complication somewhere, you need someone to stand up to Rand and say, "Sorry dude, I'm not going to do what you tell me, army or no army" to which "kill everyone" would be a really bad answer.

 

Rand's the archetype of the protagonist in your typical Hero's Quest, though in most cases, it's the mentor who puts the hero in his place (Gandalf-Frodo, Yoda-Luke, Morpheus-Neo, etc.) and, since Rand has had no such mentor (IMO, Moiraine, Lan and Cadsuane have split that role), he definitely needs someone to stand up and challenge him. Agreed.

 

That being said, I believe the problem with Egwene here is not that she stands up to Rand but that as Amyrlin Seat, she actually believes herself above the Dragon Reborn and feels like she must lead him. This is clearly not the same as standing up to him. She's probably not to blame for this, since her station has been perceived to be the most powerful in all of the Randland for 3000 yrs. but it's still not right. She must realize that the rules have changed now and it's the Dragon Reborn that the people must follow, for the good of all. I believe she can still stand up and challenge him, while working together, w/o feeling like she knows better than Rand and that she stands above him. At least that's what bothers me about her to no end and what I believe many others dislike greatly about Egwene; her insolence and arrogance.

 

She's not the main hero, the villain, or the monster, but she plays a very important part of the WoT story, a part that would be extremely less interesting if she was a perfectly reasonable person. Does the fact that she's a woman change the basher's perception? I think so. If she was a male character, I don't think it would be quite that hard to distinguish her personality from her role as a character. We're used to seeing highly ambitious, intelligent, few-if-any scruples, do-what-needs-to-be-done male characters, I'm pretty sure TV-tropes has an entire section on them. What RJ did was make it a nice young woman and made us care for her by giving her a humble background that people could identify with and an ambition that is seen as a "positive" trait, and then deconstructing it.

 

Not a hero, a villain nor a monster, exactly. A protagonist? Certainly, but none of those things, agreed.

 

As for the bashing being related to gender? I don't think so. As a big fan of Star Wars, I remember people bashing Anakin Skywalker for similar reasons (his arrogance at believing himself all-powerful, his lust for power, his brashness at throwing himself into danger w/o considering the consequences, etc.) and obviously, Anakin is a male character. So, I for one, don't bash Egwene for her being a woman. I just don't like her personality, regardless of gender.

 

Agreed. I dislike Eggys personality, but that isn’t why I want someone to bash her head in. Well, that's not only why.

She is the same person now as when we met her outside the inn in the Eamonds Field. I would joyfully accept her becoming even more unlikeable, but she hasn’t. Egwene is bland, a grey mouse. This is why I despise her. Her personality is flawed and has always been flawed in the same way over 13 books which in turn make me dislike Eggy the character.

So in conclusion I want someone to bash her head in because 1) I don’t like her personality 2) It would force her to change or grow somehow as a character. I really don’t care if this bashing would result in her becoming one of the Forsaken and develop a taste for S&M and torture.

[redcastle9]

It seems that whenever there’s a woman who shows assertiveness she gets castigated. A man in the same situation as Egwene would be admired. It kind of makes me wonder if the people calling her sexist really know what sexist means.

[randsc]

It seems that whenever there’s a woman who shows assertiveness she gets castigated. A man in the same situation as Egwene would be admired. It kind of makes me wonder if the people calling her sexist really know what sexist means.

 

 

Yeah, cause Nynaeve, Moraine, Aviendha, the Aeil Wise Ones, etc, etc, etc are all submissive shrinking violets. That's why no one complains about them.

 

And surely you're not denying that Egwene is sexist?

 

Try again.

[buckeyebull64]

Well, personality aside, the problem with Egwene the character is that she's one dimensional. Part of this is due to the situation she's in, but compare what some character's storylines consist during later books of:

 

Rand: politics, assationation, battle, training, mental health problems, leadership, love life, and more

Mat: battles, leadership, personality conflicts, sex life, search and rescue, life undercover, love life and more

Egwene: Aes Sedai politics

 

Thats the only thing her character seems to do, for five books in a row.

[buckeyebull64]

RedCastle made me think...there are some women in WoT that do have a poor view of men...but I would argue Egwene isn't one of them. Thinking about it, it seems to me that she less of a problem with men than she does with Rand in particular. It seems to me like she doesn't think of men in general poorly, but rather thinks of Rand like EVERYthing ever good or smart about him is gone. And Mat, the opposite, like he never changed.

[blazetheearth]

It seems that whenever there’s a woman who shows assertiveness she gets castigated. A man in the same situation as Egwene would be admired. It kind of makes me wonder if the people calling her sexist really know what sexist means.

 

Really??? Because I only see it boards that are about the arrogant, self-absorbed, and childish women. I haven't seen anywhere near this kind of vituperation on Nynaeve's discussion, or Aviendha's. Only on Egwene and Elayne. And I have to completely disagree with the comment that a "man in the same situation as Egwene would be admired", since the only one close to that is Taim, and I haven't seen too many boards claiming "Taim for President" or something like it. And the fact is if a man did the things that she has done, and with the reasons that we see from her PoV, I would rather he be drawn and quartered than be praised for it.

 

I mean would you admire a man who used his greater skill and knowledge in a place to cause 2 monsters (trollocs in this case) to pick up a woman, strip her clothes off and begin behaving like they were going to either violate her or kill and eat her? I definately would not adime that in a man in when you consider the fact that she did to a woman that she grew up idolizing and wanting to imitate... I can't see how anyone can admire her either.

 

Comments about sexism when it comes to people not liking Egwene or Elayne are simply ridiculous and petty. This is not about sexism at all, and your comment makes me wonder if you know 'what sexist really means.' Just in case here's the definition "pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism" and since the definition refers to it here's the definition of sexism 'discrimination on the basis of sex'. Now since most of the argument on this thread are about her personality, your comment comes across as more sexist than any of the one 'castigating' Egwene.

 

As far as Egwene not being sexist....have you actually read the books? The entire WoT universe is sexist (i.e. Discriminating against men), the only nation that is not is Seanchan and even there they have not had an Emperor since Luthair all the rest have been Empresses. But Egwene is more sexist than many other very strong female characters, as is evidenced by her thoughts during her PoV's throughout the series, starting in TEoTW.

[blazetheearth]

Well, personality aside, the problem with Egwene the character is that she's one dimensional. Part of this is due to the situation she's in, but compare what some character's storylines consist during later books of:

 

Rand: politics, assationation, battle, training, mental health problems, leadership, love life, and more

Mat: battles, leadership, personality conflicts, sex life, search and rescue, life undercover, love life and more

Egwene: Aes Sedai politics

 

Thats the only thing her character seems to do, for five books in a row.

 

It would have been better to give Nynaeve and Aviendha or Elayne or Faile or Morgase, or Cadsuane, or Suian as examples to compare her with, lest you be painted with a 'sexist' brush from some on here

[buckeyebull64]

Easy man, I was just saying we see a lot more "Men are like this..." from other females than from Egwene. She's more likely to think "Rand will do this..." or "Mat is like this..." than a general comment, like you see from Nynaeve or Suian.

 

And comparing her to other females story lines is tough, cause the next female character with a similar amount of "screen time" is Elayne, who deals with (you guessed it) politics, though not for as long as Egwene. But some of the (slightly) more minor ones I can do:

 

Nynaeve: search for holy grail (bowl), personaltiy conflict, channeling block, married life, conflicting alliences, and more

Morgase: politics, captivity, sexual assult, drop in station, love life, and more

[blazetheearth]

RedCastle made me think...there are some women in WoT that do have a poor view of men...but I would argue Egwene isn't one of them. Thinking about it, it seems to me that she less of a problem with men than she does with Rand in particular. It seems to me like she doesn't think of men in general poorly, but rather thinks of Rand like EVERYthing ever good or smart about him is gone. And Mat, the opposite, like he never changed.

 

To an extent, I agree. But even as far back as TEoTW, we see her belittling Rand, and thinking that he can't possibly know more about something than her. And the entire scene with the reunion in Camelyn, and then again in the Ways when she asks "Who is Elayne?" and he responds "the Daughter-Heir of Andor", her immediate response is ..... "Well, if you can't be serious for one minute Rand al'Thor, I don't see any point in talking to you." No attempt at investigation, no asking others if it might be possible, nothing like that, in fact she doesn't believe him until she meets Elayne in the WT. And this is the guy that she supposedly loves.... am I missing something??? She's known him all her life and because he makes a comment that she finds hard to believe, instantly he must me lying and making fun of her.

 

So far Gareth Bryne is the only man that we have seen her treat and think of fairly, but even after he tells her that he is sworn to her, not the Hall, she still doesn't trust him even though she trusts Suian completely. One she had never met before she was Amrylin, the other she only knew when that other had been Amrylin. One has a reputation for honor and honesty, even standing up to his Queen when he thought the situation merited it, the other...managed to scheme and plot her way to the top (faster than anyone in 3000 years before Egwene) of an organization known all over Randland as schemers and plotters and manipulators and this person at one time used several young girls to hunt channeling DF's. Which description seems someone you'd be more likely to trust? Not looking at sexes, just the history she knows of each person. The fact that both are extremely trustworthy is immaterial. The only conceivable explanation is that she was biased against the person of honor and integrity for some reason not readily apparent or some reason that only she has (such as a bias against men).

[blazetheearth]

Easy man, I was just saying we see a lot more "Men are like this..." from other females than from Egwene. She's more likely to think "Rand will do this..." or "Mat is like this..." than a general comment, like you see from Nynaeve or Suian.

 

And comparing her to other females story lines is tough, cause the next female character with a similar amount of "screen time" is Elayne, who deals with (you guessed it) politics, though not for as long as Egwene. But some of the (slightly) more minor ones I can do:

 

Nynaeve: search for holy grail (bowl), personaltiy conflict, channeling block, married life, conflicting alliences, and more

Morgase: politics, captivity, sexual assult, drop in station, love life, and more

 

I wasn't trying to argue with you at all, it was just meant to be friendly warning that there are people who seem to look at a post and go "Oh, they are comparing Egwene to Rand, so this person must be a Randfanboy." or the ever popular "This compares Egwene to men and if she were a man then all would be good in the reader's mind."

 

Not trying to get your back up at all, I actually agree with you. Just trying to warn you. Sorry if it came across wrong.

 

And I agree the entire Randland is sexist, that Aiel are not quite as bad as Randland proper, but nearly. And the Seanchan are the closest to a 'fair' community when looking at sexism, since they have mostly eliminated it.

[buckeyebull64]

Naw, man, its cool

[redcastle9]

Actually, my complaint is about the negative attitude some people have about 'the woman in power' Egwene. Basically she had to 'G.I. Jane' her way in to power and, well, that's just aweful! Nevermind that she healed the tower from not just the rebel/loyalist division, but is starting to heal the rifts between the Ajahs as well ... and she (with the help of Verin) managed to deal with the Black Ajah problem... finally!

 

I don't think we should compare her to Taim, she isn't self serving. Her motivation is to heal the tower and get them the respect she felt they should have. Taim just wanted to have power and glory for himself. Egwene would have given up the amyrlin seat if she believed Elaida could have actually been a decent leader.

 

I think Egwene is more like Rand and Perrin in that she stepped up to the plate and fought for what she believed in but had to do it without the advantage of being ta'veren(sp). That doesn't mean she's always right, just strong.

 

Now the Seanchan are just messed up. They don't have to disparage their men because the men all know their proper place.

 

The Aiel are possibly the most egalitarian, I agree, but I have a strong feeling that the women really run things. Just a feeling though... People just don't hate them because they're not as obvious about it.

[Darth Krewl]

Actually, my complaint is about the negative attitude some people have about 'the woman in power' Egwene. Basically she had to 'G.I. Jane' her way in to power and, well, that's just aweful! Nevermind that she healed the tower from not just the rebel/loyalist division, but is starting to heal the rifts between the Ajahs as well ... and she (with the help of Verin) managed to deal with the Black Ajah problem... finally!

 

Personally, I have no problem with women in power. If it's fantasy we're talking about, I love the way a Galadriel handles herself, for instance. A Leia Organa. A Daenerys Targaryen. So, I believe this is not about women in power, but actually about obnoxious Egwene al'Vere in power lol!

 

Now, as for Egwene healing the Tower, she did, but is this supposed to be a good thing for the world at large? Or, only for the White Tower? Because I've yet to read about one single character who doesn't cringe, shudder or glare when they crossed paths with an Aes Sedai. And I don't see Egwene taking steps in the "PR" department to improve the public image of her order. Except for the Black Ajah, of course. Good riddance!

 

I don't think we should compare her to Taim, she isn't self serving. Her motivation is to heal the tower and get them the respect she felt they should have. Taim just wanted to have power and glory for himself. Egwene would have given up the amyrlin seat if she believed Elaida could have actually been a decent leader.

 

Um, excuse me but in order to earn respect, it must be given. And no Aes Sedai is respectful to anyone other than herself. Not even to their peers. This was made quite clear through Tam al'Thor's words to Cadsuane by the end of TGS. They are bullies and if you don't do as they say, they will abuse their special abilities (or at least threaten you with them) to get what they want. No one like that deserves respect, IMO, that's for sure. As for Egwene seeking power, well, perhaps it's not for herself but all she seems to want is the glory of the White Tower. Certainly feels like the typical attitude of a zealot.

 

Now the Seanchan are just messed up. They don't have to disparage their men because the men all know their proper place.

 

Yes they are. But so is the White Tower.

[moratcorlm]

I'd say a very substantial amount of the vituperation expressed at any female character of WOT (or elsewhere) takes on sexist terms, but while it disgraces the men who use that kind of terminology it does not necessarily imply that the root cause dislike of even their dislike (much less others) is sexist. Now, Elayne, I honestly feel a great deal of the criticism of Elayne is sexist, but I don't get that impression of the dislike of Egwene. She's simply an unlikeable personality, which is exacerbated by the near-Sue regard in which she is held by every character she meets.

[redcastle9]

Nice responses, Darth Krewl, Thank-you.

 

Actually, my complaint is about the negative attitude some people have about 'the woman in power' Egwene. Basically she had to 'G.I. Jane' her way in to power and, well, that's just aweful! Nevermind that she healed the tower from not just the rebel/loyalist division, but is starting to heal the rifts between the Ajahs as well ... and she (with the help of Verin) managed to deal with the Black Ajah problem... finally!

 

Personally, I have no problem with women in power. If it's fantasy we're talking about, I love the way a Galadriel handles herself, for instance. A Leia Organa. A Daenerys Targaryen. So, I believe this is not about women in power, but actually about obnoxious Egwene al'Vere in power lol!

 

Now, as for Egwene healing the Tower, she did, but is this supposed to be a good thing for the world at large? Or, only for the White Tower? Because I've yet to read about one single character who doesn't cringe, shudder or glare when they crossed paths with an Aes Sedai. And I don't see Egwene taking steps in the "PR" department to improve the public image of her order. Except for the Black Ajah, of course. Good riddance!

Galadriel was cool, no doubt, but she had hundreds of years to get where she was by the time the Fellowship met up with her.

 

Leia Organa... Leia from Star Wars? ... seriously? She could have out Sedai'd the Aes Sedai in imperious arrogance, so I'm not sure why you approve of her and not Egwene.

 

Daenerys Targaryen was brilliantly written and total awesome sauce. Egwene doesn't come close. :)

 

Egwene's rise was meteroical. I concede that her motivations were purely for the tower. She believes, however, that a strong WT is imperitave in the face of the last battle. I personally think she will come around and support Rand, and this is much more likely than, say, the Seanchan giving up their a'dam enforced slavery.

 

I don't think we should compare her to Taim, she isn't self serving. Her motivation is to heal the tower and get them the respect she felt they should have. Taim just wanted to have power and glory for himself. Egwene would have given up the amyrlin seat if she believed Elaida could have actually been a decent leader.

 

Um, excuse me but in order to earn respect, it must be given. And no Aes Sedai is respectful to anyone other than herself. Not even to their peers. This was made quite clear through Tam al'Thor's words to Cadsuane by the end of TGS. They are bullies and if you don't do as they say, they will abuse their special abilities (or at least threaten you with them) to get what they want. No one like that deserves respect, IMO, that's for sure. As for Egwene seeking power, well, perhaps it's not for herself but all she seems to want is the glory of the White Tower. Certainly feels like the typical attitude of a zealot.

 

I agree with you here. The Aes Sedai arrogance is abhorant, and Egwene has certainly out arroganted them all. I just don't see the problem with an arrogant woman who gets things done. She would be hard to live with, and I'd probably avoid her as much as anyone, but I'm also pleased that someone besides me is getting the job done. :)

 

And Taim is slamming his men against walls and denying them healing, using some sort of compusion/mind control against his opponents and is most likely strongly influneced by one or more forsaken.

 

Now the Seanchan are just messed up. They don't have to disparage their men because the men all know their proper place.

 

Yes they are. But so is the White Tower.

The Seanchan are far worse. They are human rights violators who would be sanctioned big time in today's world. Even by fantasy standards they are highly discriminatory, indulge whole heartedly in slave labor, subjugate women who can channel to the point that they have to give up their identity and behave like trained animals. On the otherhand, other than sticking their noses in the air and prancing around like they're better than anyone else, I don't see the Aes Sedai subjugating anyone... at least not in a way that causes anyone to lose their identity.

 

I'm wondering if a lot of the stuff people are criticizing Egwene for are based on her reaction to having been collared by the seanchan. Her desire to make the White Tower strong are perhaps her way of insuring that she would never be collared by them again.

[randsc]

Sure, the Seanchan are awful. But if all the Aes Sedai were guilty of where a superiority complex, that would be OK. But they're guilty of much more than that.

 

Including torture.

 

I was just re-reading Winter's Heart, and read that bit about the use of the Chair of Regret. Apparently the reason that crime is so uncommon in Tar Valon is that those accused of crime are psychologically tortured by use of the One Power until they are broken. Unless those accused of the crime are initiates of the Tower, because it is against Tower law to use the Chair of Regret on initiates.

 

The Aes Sedai of this Age a an horrific organization.