Discuss Lan/Defense of the Blight Border

[Haran]

And if Luke had listened to Yoda, done his duty, and not gone to Cloud City to rescue his friends?

 

He wouldn't have learned a very valuable lesson in humility; one that many of the younger characters in WoT are in dire need of, btw. Even the older, more experienced Jedi...er...Aes Sedai, as Yoda said, referring to the arrogance that had come to plague the Jedi during the Order's waning days.

 

Also, Luke wouldn't have been defeated so soundly by a vastly superior opponent at that moment and, finally, he wouldn't have put his friends at risk by forcing them to come back to rescue him, instead of the other way around.

 

One not even half-trained man against a huge trap laid by a Sith Lord with overwhelming forces? Seems outside the realm of possibility for Luke to save them (tic)...Yoda even tells him that if he honors what his friends fight for, than he should sacrifice them for the greater cause, and millions of billions of people in the galaxy. In the case of Lan & Rand, you're pulling a Yoda! And Rand >>>>>>>> Luke in Empire.

 

Bingo! That's what I'm talking about, Yoda's words to Luke about sacrificing his friends, if he really honored what they were fighting for. Just as everyone in the WoT world should understand and honor what Lan's fighting for.

 

Luke loses his hand, and finds out Vader's his father. It's that revelation that's key to Luke's development. If he never goes through that experience, than he would never have even tried to turn Vader on the Death Star. If Luke does his duty and stays away, his friends get axed by the Empire. If he doesn't turn Vader, he dies at the hands of the Emperor. Everybody Dies if Luke does his Duty.

 

IMO, that's debatable. See, in the novelization for The Return of the Jedi, Obi-Wan's ghost tells Luke that, once his training in Dagobah was over and Yoda and Obi-Wan felt like Luke was ready, they would reveal him the truth. But he rushed hastily into the aid of his friends, compromising everything. Luke nods and tells Obi-Wan, "I'm sorry." The argument between them is never about that. It's about Luke's take on the possibility of redeeming Anakin. But he does understand just how badly he compromised everything because of his hastiness, arrogance and inexperience.

 

Nuff sed, I would think ;-)

 

As for his friends well...maybe you and I watched a different versions of The Empire Strikes Back, but counting on the innumerable times I've watched that film over the last 30 yrs. (I was 10 when it first came out. I watched it during its original release, actually), I seem to remember that Leia and Chewie had already managed to rescue themselves, with more than a little help from a repentant Lando, of course. So, it's not like they needed Luke's help in this matter. Also, Yoda wanted to tell Luke the truth much earlier. It was Obi-Wan who opposed him, thinking that Luke would be in great danger of falling to the Dark Side and joining his father.

 

If Anakin had gone after Padme`, Dooku would have esca...oh wait, he did anyway, and the dude lost his arm...hmm, oh well, Duty! It was the right thing *nods

 

Yes, Lord Tyranus escaped. And why? Well, because young, brash, hotheaded, almighty Anakin decided that he could take on a former Jedi Master and now full-fledged Sith Lord all by himself, compromising Obi-Wan's idea of a joint effort. Or, did you not hear Obi-Wan screaming, "NO, ANAKIN! WAAAIT!" at the top of his lungs?

 

The loss of his arm is Lucas' way to illustrate how, "in his book, experience is everything". Anakin loses an arm vs. a more experienced opponent, just like Luke loses a hand to Vader for the same reason and, finally, Anakin is maimed by Obi-Wan for the same, damned, exact reason. Jordan, I never knew that well. But Lucas? Him, I know like the palm of my hand. Don't tempt me into a battle of knowledge on the Saga, son. I didn't exactly choose this handle by accident, y'know? ;-)

 

Alas, this is not a SW fan site, so I guess we'll have to leave it for another place and another time. Suffice to say that there's a reason why Yoda and Obi-Wan were so bent on opposing Luke from leaving Dagobah in order to help his friends. Matter of fact, the comparison is completely inappropriate in this case, because Moridin (who'd the be the closest equivalent to Lord Vader) is not using Lan as bait to capture Rand.

 

In that case, the best parallels between the 2 series, would be the way Semirhage uses Rand's love for Min to force him into using the True Power, just like Lord Sidious uses Anakin's love for Padmé to force him into yielding to the dark side of the Force. But, again, that would be quite a different story...

 

It's NEVER as "simple as that". Rand can freakin Waste trollocs like nobody's business, by HIMSELF! and Lan's his friend, deathwish or not. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, you know what Rand's duty is? Go bleed on Shayol Ghul and peace out. That's it, forget everything else, leave the world as it is and just go pick a scab on that boulder over there, thanks, see you next wheel rotation.

 

Rand's a man, he had a life, family & friends. He's got immense power at his fingertips, and the ability to help, even by himself. Go Maradon all up in the Gap. But hell, there's no way it'd ever be just Rand by himself! Even if Rand said, NOBODY FOLLOW ME. They'd follow. It doesn't have to be "part of a plan" at all.

 

Oh, but who are we to tell the Dragon Reborn what he should do about his friends, even the foolish, suicidal ones? Who are we to tell Lan Mandragoran, a man in his mid to late forties, I would think, what he should/shouldn't do with his life?

 

All we can do is state our opinions. And in that sense, nobody forced Lan to land himself in such a mess. He did it all by himself. And the fact that exposing the Light's savior (or valuable assets, such as powerful Nynaeve Sedai) to rescue this one man for personal reasons is very foolish, from a military standpoint and that is simple fact....heh heh

 

Now, if Rand can make something useful out of his effort to rescue Lan (like save Shienar from a Trolloc invasion or devastate a large enemy army, as others have suggested here), then I'm all for it.

 

Im with Darth Rand in this. His death could serve us well

[sleepinghour]

Now, if Rand can make something useful out of his effort to rescue Lan (like save Shienar from a Trolloc invasion or devastate a large enemy army, as others have suggested here), then I'm all for it.

Rand and Nynaeve's conversation in TGS lays it out pretty well:

 

"I don't plan to abandon the southern lands, not at all. When the Trollocs punch through the Gap, they will break up into fists to invade. That's when my forces will hit them, led by Bashere, Traveling by gateway to strike at each group of Trollocs from the sides or behind. That way, we can pick the best battlefields to suit our needs." [...]

 

Light! He would leave the people of the Borderlands to suffer and die in the Trolloc invasions? The people there wouldn't care if the Dark One had been defeated—they would be cooking in stewpots. That would leave Lan and the Malkieri to fight alone, a tiny force to resist the might of every monster that the Blight could spit out.

 

The Seanchan would wage their war to the south and the west. The Trollocs would attack from the north and the east. The two would meet, eventually. Andor and the other kingdoms would be turned into a massive battleground, the people there—good people, like those in the Two Rivers—would have no chance against such warfare. They'd be crushed.

 

—The Gathering Storm ch 44: Scents Unknown

[Darth Krewl]

Rand and Nynaeve's conversation in TGS lays it out pretty well:

 

"I don't plan to abandon the southern lands, not at all. When the Trollocs punch through the Gap, they will break up into fists to invade. That's when my forces will hit them, led by Bashere, Traveling by gateway to strike at each group of Trollocs from the sides or behind. That way, we can pick the best battlefields to suit our needs." [...]

 

Light! He would leave the people of the Borderlands to suffer and die in the Trolloc invasions? The people there wouldn't care if the Dark One had been defeated—they would be cooking in stewpots. That would leave Lan and the Malkieri to fight alone, a tiny force to resist the might of every monster that the Blight could spit out.

 

The Seanchan would wage their war to the south and the west. The Trollocs would attack from the north and the east. The two would meet, eventually. Andor and the other kingdoms would be turned into a massive battleground, the people there—good people, like those in the Two Rivers—would have no chance against such warfare. They'd be crushed.

 

—The Gathering Storm ch 44: Scents Unknown

 

Great that you found this quote. IMO, it pretty much sums up the current state of affairs in the Randland by the time Tarmon Gai'don's in full bloom.

 

Only thing that may change is Rand's perception of the whole thing after his epiphany, of course. He may change some of his strategy so that not so many people die. But I do see the Last Battle as one epic mother of a battle, fought in countless fronts at once and all hell breaking loose in the Randland before we've turned the last page of AMoL.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I like how you brought up outcomes being left to speculation - You don't know what would have, or will happen.

 

The bit about Rand's possible actions being foolish, from a military standpoint, made me laugh though... ..Rand's a farmer.

 

Rand's going to be in harm's way. He's destined to do the Dragon's deed, break and save the world. It doesn't mean he needs to be present to lead armies in battle, or have any of his actions make sense militarily. In fact, when he cleanses Saidin with Nynaeve he puts himself, everyone around him, and even the world at insane risk by drawing nearly all Forsaken to his exact location with the keys to the chodan kal being present as well.

 

I'm trying to say that if you're the ultra-powerful fated individual who's the strongest twister of fate in the WoT universe and it's in your power to save a friend, and you DON'T, it may mean you're less foolish to some, but to others that matter, like powerful Nynaeve Aes Sedai...you're nothing but a coward.

[Darth Krewl]

I like how you brought up outcomes being left to speculation - You don't know what would have, or will happen.

 

I didn't speculate about SW, at all.

 

Now, if it's WoT you're talking about, well, unlike SW, the whole story hasn't been told. So, people will speculate. It's a lotta fun too lol! You did enough of that yourself in your last post, so I'm sure you like it too.

 

The bit about Rand's possible actions being foolish, from a military standpoint, made me laugh though... ..Rand's a farmer.

 

Not anymore, he isn't. By integrating all of his memories as Lews Therin, like only the greatest general of his time, Rand has become way more than a simple farmer.

 

Now, Luke? He was the farmer...so I guess I get the last laugh :-D

 

 

Rand's going to be in harm's way. He's destined to do the Dragon's deed, break and save the world. It doesn't mean he needs to be present to lead armies in battle, or have any of his actions make sense militarily. In fact, when he cleanses Saidin with Nynaeve he puts himself, everyone around him, and even the world at insane risk by drawing nearly all Forsaken to his exact location with the keys to the chodan kal being present as well.

 

All these things, Rand did for the sake of all and not just for a few people fortunate enough to hang with the Dragon Reborn.

 

What kind of savior would put the sake of all in danger, just to bail out his buddies? Especially when that friends of his got into trouble out of his own volition?

 

I'm trying to say that if you're the ultra-powerful fated individual who's the strongest twister of fate in the WoT universe and it's in your power to save a friend, and you DON'T, it may mean you're less foolish to some, but to others that matter, like powerful Nynaeve Aes Sedai...you're nothing but a coward.

 

So, I'm a coward then. But smart coward too, it would seem lol!

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

I'm trying to say that if you're the ultra-powerful fated individual who's the strongest twister of fate in the WoT universe and it's in your power to save a friend, and you DON'T, it may mean you're less foolish to some, but to others that matter, like powerful Nynaeve Aes Sedai...you're nothing but a coward.

 

So, I'm a coward then. But smart coward too, it would seem lol!

 

Ultimately thats what Rand's epiphany was about. Reminding him that he is still a man. IF he had the chance to save his friend, he would, even if it messed up his plans a little. However, if he was at Shayol Ghul battling the DO and someone said , "hey, come help me, im dying" he wouldnt just run off and pretty much screw everything up.

 

So its a bit more difficult than that, although i feel you know that, and was only talking about the one example of Lan.

 

As for saving Lan NOW, objectively as a reader (where we know what is happening with everyone) saving Lan is the best idea. His "Last Charge" isnt enough to do what Rand intended it. His army is too small and Trollocs are pouring out by Portal Stone and all through the various different passes from the Blight. So Tarwin's Gap isnt that special really. the Trollocs will crush his army within the day.

[Mats Spare Hat]

 

 

I'm trying to say that if you're the ultra-powerful fated individual who's the strongest twister of fate in the WoT universe and it's in your power to save a friend, and you DON'T, it may mean you're less foolish to some, but to others that matter, like powerful Nynaeve Aes Sedai...you're nothing but a coward.

 

So, I'm a coward then. But smart coward too, it would seem lol!

 

Ultimately thats what Rand's epiphany was about. Reminding him that he is still a man. IF he had the chance to save his friend, he would, even if it messed up his plans a little. However, if he was at Shayol Ghul battling the DO and someone said , "hey, come help me, im dying" he wouldnt just run off and pretty much screw everything up.

 

So its a bit more difficult than that, although i feel you know that, and was only talking about the one example of Lan.

 

As for saving Lan NOW, objectively as a reader (where we know what is happening with everyone) saving Lan is the best idea. His "Last Charge" isnt enough to do what Rand intended it. His army is too small and Trollocs are pouring out by Portal Stone and all through the various different passes from the Blight. So Tarwin's Gap isnt that special really. the Trollocs will crush his army within the day.

 

 

Agreed

 

I think the Gap is going to be used more as a circular plot device for Rand. It's where he first goes total gang-busters with the power in battle (first unconscious use to our knowledge being to help Bela, I think?). I think RJ just needed a reason to put Rand back at the Gap with that sort of literary play in mind, so it may as well be for the sake of saving/trying to help Lan. That's probably about as special as the Gap's going to be - a convenient avenue for both Trollocs to travel through without needing a portal stone or waygate, where Lan will be, and an established location, so a writer doesn't need to plot out an entirely new setting.

[Darth Krewl]

Ultimately thats what Rand's epiphany was about. Reminding him that he is still a man. IF he had the chance to save his friend, he would, even if it messed up his plans a little. However, if he was at Shayol Ghul battling the DO and someone said , "hey, come help me, im dying" he wouldnt just run off and pretty much screw everything up.

 

So its a bit more difficult than that, although i feel you know that, and was only talking about the one example of Lan.

 

As for saving Lan NOW, objectively as a reader (where we know what is happening with everyone) saving Lan is the best idea. His "Last Charge" isnt enough to do what Rand intended it. His army is too small and Trollocs are pouring out by Portal Stone and all through the various different passes from the Blight. So Tarwin's Gap isnt that special really. the Trollocs will crush his army within the day.

 

Yeah, of course. It's like I've said all along, Lan could be a great ally during the Last Battle, so his value is not in question, IMO. In fact, that's why I find his stubborn, suicidal last charge (especially alone!) so infuriating. That'd be throwing his life away needlessly, instead of really sticking it to the Shadow by letting a cooler head prevail and waiting just a little longer, before seeking his retribution for the fall of Malkier, which would come to him either way.

 

Like I said, I've nothing against rescuing the guy, if it can be done in a way that makes sense, is useful to all concerned (saving Shienar, devastating a large force of Trollocs, securing Tarwin's Gap, etc.) and not feel too contrived just for the sake of rescuing him. Because I must insist, he put himself in that position and that any attempt at rescuing him may imply certain risks that otherwise wouldn't be necessary.

 

Otherwise, Jordan's message in this sense, IMO, would be that it's okay for people to be rash and hasty, get themselves into trouble out of their own doing, w/o paying the consequences of our mistakes, because our friends will always be there to bail us out. And I just don't get that from him. What I get is that every decision (good or bad) has inevitable repercussions that go accordingly to the righteousness or wrongness of the choice as the Wheel turns.

[Agelmar]

I almost certain the Trollocs don't need to travel through Tarwin's Gap to enter Randland on foot (or hoof). The Mountains of Dhoom certainly aren't impassable everywhere else, although Tarwin's Gap appears to be the most convenient pass.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Let's say Rand doesn't go Gapping to help Lan, for whatever motivation or lack thereof let's say it just doesn't happen.

 

We can pretty much say that'll piss off one former braid-tugging-but-no-longer-has-braid-to-tug braid-tugger...a lot.

 

Who else does Nynaeve know that would owe her enough to help her help Lan...I'm looking at you previously foretold to attain great glory Logain, I'm looking at you. He owes Nynaeve big time.

 

I'm just saying, it could happen - especially since we're all left in the dark about where events fall along the overall timeline - Maybe Logain says yeah, I can channel thanks to you, let's go...seinfeld style yadda yadda yadda, and maybe later Nynaeve says alright, thanks for that, say, looks like you could use some help at the Black Tower - and maybe they do that up too.

 

Actually now I'm thinking Logain at the gap could be way more interesting from a plot standpoint than Rand at the gap. Mostly because I get the impression that readers are really into the idea that Logain's glory's going to be tied exclusively to what happens at the Black Tower, which just seems a little ho-hum, to me anyway.

 

Logain at the Gap, crazy? Too crazy?

[Darth Krewl]

Let's say Rand doesn't go Gapping to help Lan, for whatever motivation or lack thereof let's say it just doesn't happen.

 

We can pretty much say that'll piss off one former braid-tugging-but-no-longer-has-braid-to-tug braid-tugger...a lot.

 

Who else does Nynaeve know that would owe her enough to help her help Lan...I'm looking at you previously foretold to attain great glory Logain, I'm looking at you. He owes Nynaeve big time.

 

I'm just saying, it could happen - especially since we're all left in the dark about where events fall along the overall timeline - Maybe Logain says yeah, I can channel thanks to you, let's go...seinfeld style yadda yadda yadda, and maybe later Nynaeve says alright, thanks for that, say, looks like you could use some help at the Black Tower - and maybe they do that up too.

 

Actually now I'm thinking Logain at the gap could be way more interesting from a plot standpoint than Rand at the gap. Mostly because I get the impression that readers are really into the idea that Logain's glory's going to be tied exclusively to what happens at the Black Tower, which just seems a little ho-hum, to me anyway.

 

Logain at the Gap, crazy? Too crazy?

 

Not bad, not bad at all, MSH. In fact, I like this theory. Gratitude and paying favors. Yeah, it works for me.

 

Thing here would be for Nynaeve to get a hold of Logain and see how much damage they can inflict on 100's of thousands of Trollocs by linking together (IMO, shouldn't be as much as Rand could do, but devastating all the same).

[Val Mickey]

What if Lan achieves the impossible by successfully defending the Gap? (With Rand's help of course.) Hold it for umpteen number of days against superior forces, and make it the frontline of the battle. He may be a fool to try what he did, but he will become a hero for doing what he is about to.

[Random Man]

What if Lan achieves the impossible by successfully defending the Gap? (With Rand's help of course.) Hold it for umpteen number of days against superior forces, and make it the frontline of the battle. He may be a fool to try what he did, but he will become a hero for doing what he is about to.

A real-world parallel to Lan at the Gap would be the stand of King Leonidas of Sparta and his personal guard of 300 against the Persians at Thermopylae. Leonidas gave his oath that Sparta would fight no matter what against the Persians and ended up having to march by himself to Thermopylae without the help of the Spartan army. The delaying action -- they held the pass for several days against forces numbering between 100,000 to 250,000 -- gave the rest of the Greeks time to prepare and ultimately defeat the invaders. I would hope that the Malkieri would not meet a similar fate -- destroyed to a man -- but if they were to meet such an end it would still be their finest hour.

[gary0044187]

What if Lan achieves the impossible by successfully defending the Gap? (With Rand's help of course.) Hold it for umpteen number of days against superior forces, and make it the frontline of the battle. He may be a fool to try what he did, but he will become a hero for doing what he is about to.

A real-world parallel to Lan at the Gap would be the stand of King Leonidas of Sparta and his personal guard of 300 against the Persians at Thermopylae. Leonidas gave his oath that Sparta would fight no matter what against the Persians and ended up having to march by himself to Thermopylae without the help of the Spartan army. The delaying action -- they held the pass for several days against forces numbering between 100,000 to 250,000 -- gave the rest of the Greeks time to prepare and ultimately defeat the invaders. I would hope that the Malkieri would not meet a similar fate -- destroyed to a man -- but if they were to meet such an end it would still be their finest hour.

this is actually not a parallel at all, leonidas had heavy infantry fighting light infantry, lan is heavy cav vs ultra heavy infantry. troop composition requires different tactics. thermopylae was much narrower than tarwin's gap is described. again, different tactics, possibly different ratios required to achieve success.

[blazetheearth]

What if Lan achieves the impossible by successfully defending the Gap? (With Rand's help of course.) Hold it for umpteen number of days against superior forces, and make it the frontline of the battle. He may be a fool to try what he did, but he will become a hero for doing what he is about to.

A real-world parallel to Lan at the Gap would be the stand of King Leonidas of Sparta and his personal guard of 300 against the Persians at Thermopylae. Leonidas gave his oath that Sparta would fight no matter what against the Persians and ended up having to march by himself to Thermopylae without the help of the Spartan army. The delaying action -- they held the pass for several days against forces numbering between 100,000 to 250,000 -- gave the rest of the Greeks time to prepare and ultimately defeat the invaders. I would hope that the Malkieri would not meet a similar fate -- destroyed to a man -- but if they were to meet such an end it would still be their finest hour.

this is actually not a parallel at all, leonidas had heavy infantry fighting light infantry, lan is heavy cav vs ultra heavy infantry. troop composition requires different tactics. thermopylae was much narrower than tarwin's gap is described. again, different tactics, possibly different ratios required to achieve success.

 

Not only that, the entire basis for the thought is flawed.

 

I cannot understand why so many people are posting about "defending the Gap". Lan will not hold the Gap, he will not even try.

 

Lan is NOT riding to DEFEND Tarwin's Gap, he is riding to ATTACK THE SHADOW FORCES in Malkier, which is through the Gap.

 

Holding the Gap/Defending will not accomplish his goal. He sees defense at the Gap as pointless, he will attack not defend. Any theory based on defense of the Gap and any Real World scenario's of defense do not apply. You night as well include football defensive plays as cite the Spartans, because the Spartans DEFENDED.

 

Lan will attack, and attack and keep attacking until he either breaks through the trolloc forces or dies in the attempt. That is the sum total extent of Lan's plan as far as we can see from his PoV, and what he tells his troops.

 

I agree that without help he and all of his troops will die. He might or might not have needed help to just defend the Gap, but since he has ruled out defense entirely he will need help.

[Val Mickey]

Battle plans always change. If Lan gets help, he might clear the Gap and hold the other end. I do not believe that he can progress further than that, where there are Trollocs upon Trollocs till Shayol Ghul.

 

The black-eyed Aiel - that was a wow moment. While it finally clears up who speared Demira, it gives a new twist to the prophecy 'Red on Black, the Dragon's Blood..'

 

As to the real world references - well, WoT rarely stays true to our version of things. The fact that Leonidas defended would not be the 'basis' of the legend, a puny force holding against a host of Immortals (?Forsaken?) would be the basis of that one.

[blazetheearth]

The black-eyed Aiel - that was a wow moment. While it finally clears up who speared Demira, it gives a new twist to the prophecy 'Red on Black, the Dragon's Blood..'

 

 

I thought DF Aiel (like Melindhra) stabbed Demira, in an effort to drive a wedge between Rand and the SAS. I figured it was done on orders from one of the Forsaken. But I do like the idea that Janduin is one of the Red-Veils, it would certainly shock and astound any of the Aiel with or around Rand. And that doesn't even cover what that revelation would have on Rand. Good thought!

[Darth Krewl]

Not only that, the entire basis for the thought is flawed.

 

I cannot understand why so many people are posting about "defending the Gap". Lan will not hold the Gap, he will not even try.

 

Lan is NOT riding to DEFEND Tarwin's Gap, he is riding to ATTACK THE SHADOW FORCES in Malkier, which is through the Gap.

 

Holding the Gap/Defending will not accomplish his goal. He sees defense at the Gap as pointless, he will attack not defend. Any theory based on defense of the Gap and any Real World scenario's of defense do not apply. You night as well include football defensive plays as cite the Spartans, because the Spartans DEFENDED.

 

Lan will attack, and attack and keep attacking until he either breaks through the trolloc forces or dies in the attempt. That is the sum total extent of Lan's plan as far as we can see from his PoV, and what he tells his troops.

 

I agree that without help he and all of his troops will die. He might or might not have needed help to just defend the Gap, but since he has ruled out defense entirely he will need help.

 

I couldn't agree more. Lan's stand at Tarwin's Gap is an open challenge to the Dark One in retribution for his fallen nation. Nobody sent him there to defend Shienar from invasion. He went there on his own volition. Leonidas was defending Sparta from invasion and didn't have the support of his entire nation. Perhaps Lan would've met with the same resistance from Rand or the other Borderland monarchs, but this is not the reason he's there.

 

And yes, should Lan get no help of any kind, he and his charges will be overrun. Personally, I can't understand why the passing of a major character is seen as something so dramatic, since it's always happened in every story in fantasy (except for WoT, so far). Perhaps the help will come but it'll be too late. Maybe Shienar will be saved at that time, because Lan's charge was able to slow the enemy down but will be killed by the time help does arrive. This, in effect, would make his last stand heroic (w/o Shienar would've been toast) and make sense from a narrative PoV.

 

W/e the case, Ishadar's right: Lan's not defending, but attacking.

[Val Mickey]

The black-eyed Aiel - that was a wow moment. While it finally clears up who speared Demira, it gives a new twist to the prophecy 'Red on Black, the Dragon's Blood..'

 

 

I thought DF Aiel (like Melindhra) stabbed Demira, in an effort to drive a wedge between Rand and the SAS. I figured it was done on orders from one of the Forsaken. But I do like the idea that Janduin is one of the Red-Veils, it would certainly shock and astound any of the Aiel with or around Rand. And that doesn't even cover what that revelation would have on Rand. Good thought!

 

The Aiel who stabbed Demira had black eyes. It was major proof that the killer's were not Aiel. Plus Janduin is dead by Luc's hand, as the maidens who went with him claimed. But I'll take credit for it if you think it was good.

 

What I actually meant is that if there is an Aiel-oid clan in the Blight, reared from mad male Aiel, and maybe other Borderlander stock, this would explain why these Aiel have black eyes, were red veils, and unveil before killing. (In my head I call them anti-Aiel.) Red veils vs Black veils, both being Aiel blood would certainly change that prophecy for me.

 

It also clears up Taim's 'These so-called Aiel' comment for me. These anti-Aiel must consider themselves the only true Aiel.

 

1 red Aiel clan will wipe out the entire Aiel. Epic fight!

 

Personally, I can't understand why the passing of a major character is seen as something so dramatic,

 

Huh?

Do you just argue for the sake of arguing?

[Darth Krewl]

Huh?

Do you just argue for the sake of arguing?

 

I'm sorry you have that impression, Val Mickey. At any rate, not to be rude, but I wasn't talking about/to you exclusively. I was referring to a common trait I've found on most threads I've read in this forum, where it would seem to me like people strongly oppose the deaths of any major characters and I find that odd, to say the least.

 

All I know is what I said: major characters do die at some point in every other fantasy story I've ever read or watched on film and that is no argument. That is just a fact, based on my personal opinion.

 

In addition to the post you quoted (where I was agreeing with Ishadar's sentiments 100%) I have agreed with other users many times before, as the quote below (found at the top of this very page, btw) clearly demonstrates:

 

Let's say Rand doesn't go Gapping to help Lan, for whatever motivation or lack thereof let's say it just doesn't happen...

 

Not bad, not bad at all, MSH. In fact, I like this theory. Gratitude and paying favors. Yeah, it works for me...

 

Oh, and I just agreed with you in the Egwene thread too, just so you know heh heh...

[Hadilmir]

Huh?

Do you just argue for the sake of arguing?

No, that would be me.

 

Also, guys... please don't use the movie 300 for historical facts. You make yourselves look ridiculous. (Even though it is easily one of the best ancient war movies ever)

[Val Mickey]

If the passing of a major character isn't supposed to be dramatic, then the things that can be dramatic would be zilch. People like drama.

 

Perhaps you meant you don't understand why others are making such a fuss about the drama? I don't either, but I let it pass. Perhaps something good will come out of it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The black-eyed Aiel - that was a wow moment. While it finally clears up who speared Demira, it gives a new twist to the prophecy 'Red on Black, the Dragon's Blood..'

 

 

I thought DF Aiel (like Melindhra) stabbed Demira, in an effort to drive a wedge between Rand and the SAS. I figured it was done on orders from one of the Forsaken. But I do like the idea that Janduin is one of the Red-Veils, it would certainly shock and astound any of the Aiel with or around Rand. And that doesn't even cover what that revelation would have on Rand. Good thought!

 

The Aiel who stabbed Demira had black eyes. It was major proof that the killer's were not Aiel. Plus Janduin is dead by Luc's hand, as the maidens who went with him claimed. But I'll take credit for it if you think it was good.

 

What I actually meant is that if there is an Aiel-oid clan in the Blight, reared from mad male Aiel, and maybe other Borderlander stock, this would explain why these Aiel have black eyes, were red veils, and unveil before killing. (In my head I call them anti-Aiel.) Red veils vs Black veils, both being Aiel blood would certainly change that prophecy for me.

 

It also clears up Taim's 'These so-called Aiel' comment for me. These anti-Aiel must consider themselves the only true Aiel.

 

1 red Aiel clan will wipe out the entire Aiel. Epic fight!

 

Mmmm, I like this theory alot. They HAVE to be some kind of faction of Aiel. I mean, why the hell would they be dressed like aiel, vieled, carry the same weapons if they arent in some way related. Just coz they have black eyes, doesnt mean they have nothing to do with Aiel. I like your interpretation. Shadow-bred Aiel from the Male Channelers who went to the Blight etc..

 

We know that Isam was "raised" in the Blight, its possible, most likely that these Red-veils are the "Blank". A whole clan of Darkfriend Aiel.

 

Anyway, sorry bout hte sidetrack, back to the Lan etc...

 

I agree again, of course main character death is suppoosed to be dramatic. thats hwo you know you have a good series. Readers connect with characters as if they were friends. Is that so hard?

[Darth Krewl]

If the passing of a major character isn't supposed to be dramatic, then the things that can be dramatic would be zilch. People like drama.

 

Perhaps you meant you don't understand why others are making such a fuss about the drama? I don't either, but I let it pass. Perhaps something good will come out of it.

 

Exactly. This is what I meant to say. I mean, I understand how people would hate to see their fave character(s) killed off, but IMO, WoT does lack drama and a good sense of danger in this sense.

 

Also, since AMoL is the last book in the series (or next to last, in case Sanderson decided that another book was needed to close this out properly), it's not like we're gonna see these characters in the future anymore. so, IMO, no harm killing off 2 or 3 of them, but only for dramatic purposes that suit the narrative and not just for the sake of it, I'd say.

 

I could be wrong of course, but IMO, Lan is one of the ideal candidates for that.

[Val Mickey]

 

Exactly. This is what I meant to say.

 

It seems to me that a lot of the debates you're involved in could've been avoided if you phrased your sentences correctly.

 

 

BBM, The Anti-Aiel clan theory has already been here before. (Someone beat me to it.) I've given it some flesh, that's all. I don't think anyone else has posted the Demira or the Taim connections. I can see Taim being trained there. It would fit in with his disdain for swords, his experience in the Blight (Saldaeans are mostly a cavalry force, especially their Blight expeditions - Taim has no bowlegs, so he was never a Saldaean soldier. Who would go into the Blight otherwise?) his 'so-called Aiel' comment, his knowledge in weaves, and his ability at war strategy. And it isn't just the male Aiel channelers.

 

What if Ishamael has been luring other channelers into the Blight? He kept telling the Ta'veren that the Eye of the World would never serve them. If he has done the same to other Randland channelers/ta'veren, they would go into the Blight - seeking glory and the Eye - where they can be 'picked up.' Yes, I can see this happening. It might not be a very successful method, but any channeler they gain is worth the effort.

 

Well off topic, hmm, Al'Lan, he has a horse does he not?