Discuss The Seanchan/Fortuona

[shaiel]

I've just found this post, that is a good example of "compare randaland/seanchan to America/candada/real world"

It is a little old, but it is a perfect example.

 

The Seekers are a constant terror to every citizen of Seanchan.

Nonsense. The Seekers concern themselves with enemies of the state, and lacking the kind of total surveillance any modern government (democratic or otherwise) can bring into play, they would practically concern themselves only with the plots of those with the means to plot. That is not everyone in Seanchan. That is a tiny, tiny minority.

 

You missed the key distinction. American (and as I understand it, Canadian) intelligence is bifurcated between foreign intelligence and domestic so that we can protect our own citizens from them. And of course the 4th Amendment, et al. are for much the same purpose. That is why your supposed "enemy of the state" distinction is a bit silly. It is made clear that "enemy of the state" is defined at the Seeker of the Truth's discretion. One need only re-read Egeanin's POVs from her encounter with the Seeker to feel the raw terror they produce. They are free to spread that anywhere they choose with no restraints. And as we saw from the Seeker who visited Egeanin, they are not immune to wild conspiracy theories. You seems to have a strange reliance on the benevolence of the Seanchan--you operate under the assumption that they will use their power for good. This flies in the face of A) human history and B) the actual actions of the Seanchan in the books. I'm unsurprised that B doesn't move you, because you've demonstrated a complete inability to remember much at all about the Seanchan. Given that your amnesia extends beyond every bad behavior ever demonstrated by the Seanchan to any number of facts about the Randland societies (while retaining a mysterious retention of bad behavior), I suspect it is less due to lack of familiarity with the books and more due to design. I frankly don't have time to play your game and dig through 12 books to provide citations to the behavior you claim not to remember. Between your selective memory and refusal to admit to a characterization of any society to a realworld equivalent, it's no wonder you find attempts to refute your positions inadequate.

 

Ok so what's the point? Can we please stop doing these comparison? Randland is an imaginary world, an imaginary medieval/ reinassance/ whatever society. Why are we comparing it to our moder society? (that sometimes is not so much better, IMO) They simply are living a different, previous, phase of their evolution. Furthermore, during our millenary story, humanity ( = people who lived/ are living in the real world) did things that are equal (and worst) to randland's most horrible facts, sometimes I think Wot society is too "good".

What im trying to say is, stop trying to explain Randland using modern standars. Everything becomes more understandble

[Exy]

Indeed. What I see here is a bunch of feudalists and monarchists who dislike anyone who goes up against Rand, then seek out reasons to rationalize their dislike. For a reader of fantasy fiction series set in premodern times to get the vapors when encountering premodern political philosophy is kind of laughable, people. Just say you don't like X and leave it at that.

That's an ad hominem argument and it's just another example of your defective reasoning. I don't know why you find the Seanchan so thrilling, but you can certainly trust that I'm fine with people going against Rand. Find the big Egwene threads and see wher I defend her.

 

 

Oh' date=' genetically they're of homo sapiens, but they are so far outside the human experience – our human experience, for all of our human history – that they cannot be considered to be of like kind.[/quote']

I don't even know what to say to that. That's so ridiculous it's hard to even address it. Channelers are living, reasoning human beings who have the same experiences, emotions, physical sensations, and so forth as anyone else.

 

Watching you flail like this to try to justify something that's clearly and intentionally depicted as disgusting is really disturbing. RJ didn't spare the reader anything in depicting Seanchan society as brutally fascist -- murdering people freely and openly, maintaining secret police forces that are not really answerable to anyone, and even routinely practicing slavery. If you look at that as a positive, sympathetic thing, I don't know what to say.

 

 

Come on now; the uniqueness of Seanchan violence been disproved pages back.

You said it pages back' date=' but you couldn't even begin to justify your claims. All you did was make specious claims that modern real-life societies have police forces comparable to the Seekers of Truth, and draw comparisons to Tear that made it pretty obvious that the most oppressive nation in the Westlands was at worst comparable to Seanchan.

 

 

What would you do?

Realistically, I'd probably think it was good and right, the way ordinary folks in this country tended to back when we practiced chattel slavery.

 

 

Its too hard to view the Seanchan with any objectivity. The simple fact that they collar channelers makes them "evil" in the eyes of the reader.

So obviously you also want to ignore the dozen other points that people have brought up that also make the Seanchan look like brutal' date=' fascist tyrants.

 

 

I am more than sure that when Rand brought the Aiel into the continent to conquer and unleashed the Shaido into the world through his actions that the terror eclipsed nigh anything less than a shadowspawn invasion.

Absolutely. The Shaido manage to be worse by far than the Seanchan. But, then, no one's sitting here defending what they did. The fact that North Korea would be worse to live in than Saudi Arabia doesn't make the actions of the Saudis okay. And whether or not it was Rand's fault that the Shaido did what they did (I would tend to assign the blame to Asmodean and Sevanna), he certainly wasn't trying to do it, so it's hardly comparable to what Turak, Suroth, and now Tuon have presided over.

 

 

So far as I am aware there is as of yet no nation build upon free democratic' date=' federalist or republican values. Even Caemlyn is ruled with an iron-fist where the regent Elayne speaks non-nonchalantly of executing those who disobey her in matters of rule and forcefully keeping individuals kidnapped to keep their families in line.[/quote']

It was weird when you tried to justify what the Seanchan are doing by comparing them to an even worse society. It's doubly weird that you try to do it by comparing the Seanchan to a vastly freer society. I mean, of course we haven't seen any open, democratic societies. It would pretty much kill all the conventions of the genre if we did, but that dosen't mean that the fascist military dictatorship ruled by an absolute monarch isn't at least quite a bit worse than monarchies like Andor or Saldaea in which the nobles share a culture in respecting the law and at least trying to do right by their people.

 

The citizen is clearly subordinate to the State in Seanchan, and that's true of the people who are lucky enough not to be damane or hereditary chattel slaves. At least Elayne (and Morgase) and people like King Easar and Queen Tenobia have some notion of responsibility to their citizens that isn't limited to controlling them.

 

 

Furthermore in a Hegelian dialectic it is easy to point out that fascism was the great anti-movement: it was anti-liberal' date=' anti-communist, anti-capitalist, and anti-bourgeois. This does not seem to correlate in the slightest to any plane of society existing in Randland or Seanchan. So again with all due respect, can you please bother to explain to me what you're smoking to imply that the Seanchan are in the slightest fascists? [/quote']

I'm talking political science, you're just spewing meaningless critical theory jargon. It's a simple and fundamental thing here -- the Seanchan are depicted constantly as placing the rights of citizens as subordinate to the needs of the State. Elevation of the State above all else is the meaning fascism.

 

 

Randland is an imaginary world' date=' an imaginary medieval/ reinassance/ whatever society. Why are we comparing it to our moder society?[/quote']

In this case, we're doing it because one of the Seanchan apologists made the absolutely absurd claim that modern democratic societies have police forces comparable to the Seekers of Truth.

 

But yes, I would rather compare them to other Randland societies. They may not be worse than Shara (judging only from the BWB) and they're not worse than the Shaido, but they do seem to be categorically worse than most countries in the Westlands. I would certainly rather live in Seanchan-controlled Tarabon than in (pre-Seanchan) Amadicia, and maybe it would be a draw compared to Tear, but pretty much anywhere in the Westlands outside of Seanchan control would be a better place to live.

[quietstormrico]

I think the real question in regards to the Seanchan is this: Is the future Aviendha saw inevitable, or can it be changed? Personally, I think it can, or else why show it to her? Plus, I think most readers are hoping for a happy ending, and that future seemed anything but happy. To change it, issues like the damane Wise Ones will have to be resolved in a way that is satisfactory for both the Seanchan and the Aiel. Ideas?

[quietstormrico]

Its too hard to view the Seanchan with any objectivity. The simple fact that they collar channelers makes them "evil" in the eyes of the reader.

 

I dont condone slavery at all, obviously, but i believe the Seanchan are getting the hard end of the bargain.

 

Remember the whole scene with Aviendha in ToM was THE AIEL'S FAULT. They decieved everyone to break the Dragon's Peace. The Seanchan respected the compact. Their rule, aside from the whole collaring channelers, Rand admits is better than his own. the Seanchan bring peace, for all of their military rule, the average person lives in peace.

 

So while I do not particularly like the idea of the Raven Empire taking over the world and collaring every channeler, i dont have any sympathy for the Aiel. They got what they deserved in that future viewing thing. They started the war, and dragged everyone else into it with deception.

 

Hmm. Couldn't it be argued that by not releasing Aiel damane after the Last Battle, the Seanchan actually started the war? Can the Seanchan really enslave thousands and expect no repercussions?

[Guest osnowyo]

Elevation of the State above all else is the meaning fascism.

 

Not necessarily, state socialism also promotes the state above all else, but regardless Seanchan is not a fascist state but a hereditary monarchy that holds the same sort of views that comparable hereditary monarchies such as Tang dynasty China, which I believe their society is modeled on to an extent.

 

absolutely absurd claim that modern democratic societies have police forces comparable to the Seekers of Truth.

 

As well, this is a matter of opinion. What do you think about the CIA, or MI5? People claim that they do liquidate internal enemies of the state, how true or not that is I don't know, although the CIA do routinely torture people they only expect of 'terrorism' whether that is true or not. However if we can compare the Seeker's of Truth to Jinyi Wei of the Ming dynasty. A very similar organization in a very similar empire.

[Nygma7]

That struck me as pretty odd as well. Damane are greatly effective in pitched battle, but only because of their training and discipline. Any other organized group of channellers would do as well. Indeed, the Asha'man more than hold their own against the damane. Add in linking--even in small circles--and you get a force that individual damane cannot possibly stand against. The major Seanchan victories have been against non-channellers and a pathologically dysfunctional and underpopulated White Tower.

The problem is that the Seanchan have channelers integrated with the military. Their attacks have been against other Seanchan (in Seanchan), who have the same limitations they do; against Randland armies which don't have channelers; against channelers which don't have armies (the White Tower has the Tower Guard and Warders, but that's kinda like sending the police and bodyguards out against an army. Their major defeat has been against Rand, who had Davram Bashere leading a trained army with Asha'man.

 

We have yet to see an army with both Asha'man and Aes Sedai integrated in for circles. And any army with Aes Sedai is going to be handicapped by the Three Oaths.

[sylathis]

I suppose that Galgan will learn from the damane captured in the raid on the White Tower that sul'dam can channel: then he will seize the throne and leash Fortuona. Beslan will then revolt and free her.

 

Interesting idea. Certainly gets around the who submits to whom scenario.

 

Personally, I thought we'd see more of that kind of thing by now. There do need to be a series of Light setbacks before the Big Dustup if there is ever going to be any suspense about the outcome. I figured this book would be "The Empire Strikes Back" volume, and it wasn't, so...

 

The thing about writing a whole new series of books is, we dont know a whole lot if where Jordan wanted it to go, Sanderson is doing great with what he was left with and such, i think it would be a mistake to go in another direction like that. I think i speak for alot of people when i say that i wanna see how it ends. i hate the year and a half wait between books to see what is gonna happen. I have been reading them for 21 years now or so. im 33, but i feel like im gonna be dead before they are finished.

[sylathis]

Its too hard to view the Seanchan with any objectivity. The simple fact that they collar channelers makes them "evil" in the eyes of the reader.

 

I dont condone slavery at all, obviously, but i believe the Seanchan are getting the hard end of the bargain.

 

Remember the whole scene with Aviendha in ToM was THE AIEL'S FAULT. They decieved everyone to break the Dragon's Peace. The Seanchan respected the compact. Their rule, aside from the whole collaring channelers, Rand admits is better than his own. the Seanchan bring peace, for all of their military rule, the average person lives in peace.

 

So while I do not particularly like the idea of the Raven Empire taking over the world and collaring every channeler, i dont have any sympathy for the Aiel. They got what they deserved in that future viewing thing. They started the war, and dragged everyone else into it with deception.

 

This is true, my friend. I have just despised the Seanchan since the beginning. i think they are blind to a whole lot. I think they need to open their eyes to the Suldam being able to channel as well. I would like to see Tuon get collared and then see what happens. Would see then right.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Its too hard to view the Seanchan with any objectivity. The simple fact that they collar channelers makes them "evil" in the eyes of the reader.

 

I dont condone slavery at all, obviously, but i believe the Seanchan are getting the hard end of the bargain.

 

Remember the whole scene with Aviendha in ToM was THE AIEL'S FAULT. They decieved everyone to break the Dragon's Peace. The Seanchan respected the compact. Their rule, aside from the whole collaring channelers, Rand admits is better than his own. the Seanchan bring peace, for all of their military rule, the average person lives in peace.

 

So while I do not particularly like the idea of the Raven Empire taking over the world and collaring every channeler, i dont have any sympathy for the Aiel. They got what they deserved in that future viewing thing. They started the war, and dragged everyone else into it with deception.

 

This is true, my friend. I have just despised the Seanchan since the beginning. i think they are blind to a whole lot. I think they need to open their eyes to the Suldam being able to channel as well. I would like to see Tuon get collared and then see what happens. Would see then right.

 

 

Collaring Tuon will not happen or it might but she will not be Empress post-act. Be realistic. Indoctrination and an orthodox belief in a strict set of values tends to leave a certain imprint on an individual. If Tuon would be collared the psychological impact of such would leave her unfit for rule and might even drive her to suicidal depressions/mania. A small trivia question for you perhaps, which is rather relevant. Which year in the 20th century had the highest recorded amount of suicides by a horrifyingly large margin? Peruse on that for a few moments and when the logical answer comes to you, you will also understand as to how this pertains to the impossibility of the situation you're proposing.

[Suttree]

Its too hard to view the Seanchan with any objectivity. The simple fact that they collar channelers makes them "evil" in the eyes of the reader.

 

I dont condone slavery at all, obviously, but i believe the Seanchan are getting the hard end of the bargain.

 

Remember the whole scene with Aviendha in ToM was THE AIEL'S FAULT. They decieved everyone to break the Dragon's Peace. The Seanchan respected the compact. Their rule, aside from the whole collaring channelers, Rand admits is better than his own. the Seanchan bring peace, for all of their military rule, the average person lives in peace.

 

So while I do not particularly like the idea of the Raven Empire taking over the world and collaring every channeler, i dont have any sympathy for the Aiel. They got what they deserved in that future viewing thing. They started the war, and dragged everyone else into it with deception.

 

This is true, my friend. I have just despised the Seanchan since the beginning. i think they are blind to a whole lot. I think they need to open their eyes to the Suldam being able to channel as well. I would like to see Tuon get collared and then see what happens. Would see then right.

 

When people talk about Fortuona being collared they have to remember as of now it would not work. She either would have to spend much longer working with Damane or make a conscious decision to channel first. There is not really time for the first and the second would take a seachange in her current belief system.

[moratcorlm]

When people talk about Fortuona being collared they have to remember as of now it would not work. She either would have to spend much longer working with Damane or make a conscious decision to channel first. There is not really time for the first and the second would take a seachange in her current belief system.

There's a third option: she takes up one of the bracelets of a male a'dam, and the reverse flow begins to force her to embrace saidar. That she and Egwene will collar Rand is my theory, which fulfills three of Egwene's dreams, one of Min's viewings, and a couple of lines of the Prophecies of the Dragon, and I'm sticking with it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Its too hard to view the Seanchan with any objectivity. The simple fact that they collar channelers makes them "evil" in the eyes of the reader.

 

I dont condone slavery at all, obviously, but i believe the Seanchan are getting the hard end of the bargain.

 

Remember the whole scene with Aviendha in ToM was THE AIEL'S FAULT. They decieved everyone to break the Dragon's Peace. The Seanchan respected the compact. Their rule, aside from the whole collaring channelers, Rand admits is better than his own. the Seanchan bring peace, for all of their military rule, the average person lives in peace.

 

So while I do not particularly like the idea of the Raven Empire taking over the world and collaring every channeler, i dont have any sympathy for the Aiel. They got what they deserved in that future viewing thing. They started the war, and dragged everyone else into it with deception.

 

Hmm. Couldn't it be argued that by not releasing Aiel damane after the Last Battle, the Seanchan actually started the war? Can the Seanchan really enslave thousands and expect no repercussions?

By your logic you can argue that it was Perrin's fault for telling the Seanchan to enslave the Shaido. YOu could also say that it was the Shaido's fault for doing the exact same thing. Enslaving people, which made Perrin pissed and go to seanchan for help. Further, you could blame Sammael for sending the Shaido where he did. Then you could blame the Shaido for defecting from the other Aiel. Or the Seanchan for just existing.

 

No, it was the Aiel's choice to start the war. But they didnt just fight 1 v 1, they decieved Andor, forcing them into war, thus the Dragon's peace was broken and the Seanchan dominated the world. The Aiel started the war, peace was held until they broke it.

[moratcorlm]

The Aiel claim that there are non-Shaido Wise One damane. How that happened is somewhat um... let's be kind and call it mysterious, since there have been no battles described in the books between Rand's Aiel and the Seanchan. Or the Aiel could just be lying. In any case, ordinary soldiers might sometimes be repatriated in a time of peace, though we don't know whether that's the common practice in the WOT or not, but it's hardly uncommon for certain classes to be kept prisoner or killed – spies, or high-ranking officers, or what we now call war criminals.

[quietstormrico]

When people talk about Fortuona being collared they have to remember as of now it would not work. She either would have to spend much longer working with Damane or make a conscious decision to channel first. There is not really time for the first and the second would take a seachange in her current belief system.

There's a third option: she takes up one of the bracelets of a male a'dam, and the reverse flow begins to force her to embrace saidar. That she and Egwene will collar Rand is my theory, which fulfills three of Egwene's dreams, one of Min's viewings, and a couple of lines of the Prophecies of the Dragon, and I'm sticking with it.

I don't think an Aes Sedai who has sworn on the Oath Rod could collar a channeler who was not a Darkfriend unless her life was threatened. Also, given Egwene's history with the Seanchan, (being collared, their attack on the Tower) I definitely can't see her teaming up with Tuon, no matter how desperate.

[quietstormrico]

Its too hard to view the Seanchan with any objectivity. The simple fact that they collar channelers makes them "evil" in the eyes of the reader.

 

I dont condone slavery at all, obviously, but i believe the Seanchan are getting the hard end of the bargain.

 

Remember the whole scene with Aviendha in ToM was THE AIEL'S FAULT. They decieved everyone to break the Dragon's Peace. The Seanchan respected the compact. Their rule, aside from the whole collaring channelers, Rand admits is better than his own. the Seanchan bring peace, for all of their military rule, the average person lives in peace.

 

So while I do not particularly like the idea of the Raven Empire taking over the world and collaring every channeler, i dont have any sympathy for the Aiel. They got what they deserved in that future viewing thing. They started the war, and dragged everyone else into it with deception.

 

Hmm. Couldn't it be argued that by not releasing Aiel damane after the Last Battle, the Seanchan actually started the war? Can the Seanchan really enslave thousands and expect no repercussions?

By your logic you can argue that it was Perrin's fault for telling the Seanchan to enslave the Shaido. YOu could also say that it was the Shaido's fault for doing the exact same thing. Enslaving people, which made Perrin pissed and go to seanchan for help. Further, you could blame Sammael for sending the Shaido where he did. Then you could blame the Shaido for defecting from the other Aiel. Or the Seanchan for just existing.

 

No, it was the Aiel's choice to start the war. But they didnt just fight 1 v 1, they decieved Andor, forcing them into war, thus the Dragon's peace was broken and the Seanchan dominated the world. The Aiel started the war, peace was held until they broke it.

Meh, "peace" is all relative. Nazi Germany was peaceful too, unless you were Jewish...

[quietstormrico]

Its too hard to view the Seanchan with any objectivity. The simple fact that they collar channelers makes them "evil" in the eyes of the reader.

 

I dont condone slavery at all, obviously, but i believe the Seanchan are getting the hard end of the bargain.

 

Remember the whole scene with Aviendha in ToM was THE AIEL'S FAULT. They decieved everyone to break the Dragon's Peace. The Seanchan respected the compact. Their rule, aside from the whole collaring channelers, Rand admits is better than his own. the Seanchan bring peace, for all of their military rule, the average person lives in peace.

 

So while I do not particularly like the idea of the Raven Empire taking over the world and collaring every channeler, i dont have any sympathy for the Aiel. They got what they deserved in that future viewing thing. They started the war, and dragged everyone else into it with deception.

 

This is true, my friend. I have just despised the Seanchan since the beginning. i think they are blind to a whole lot. I think they need to open their eyes to the Suldam being able to channel as well. I would like to see Tuon get collared and then see what happens. Would see then right.

 

When people talk about Fortuona being collared they have to remember as of now it would not work. She either would have to spend much longer working with Damane or make a conscious decision to channel first. There is not really time for the first and the second would take a seachange in her current belief system.

I'm not sure about this, might have to go back and check, but hadn't Tuon already spent at least a few years training damane prior to meeting Mat? Also, I don't think it matters if she has tried to channel in terms of whether the a'dam would work on her. Renna and Seta hadn't tried at the time when they were both collared and left to be discovered in that basement.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Absolutely. The Shaido manage to be worse by far than the Seanchan. But, then, no one's sitting here defending what they did. The fact that North Korea would be worse to live in than Saudi Arabia doesn't make the actions of the Saudis okay. And whether or not it was Rand's fault that the Shaido did what they did (I would tend to assign the blame to Asmodean and Sevanna), he certainly wasn't trying to do it, so it's hardly comparable to what Turak, Suroth, and now Tuon have presided over.

 

 

It is rather curious at how you wish to avoid any blame falling on Rand. The Aiel would have stayed on their side of the wall had it not been for him, Shaido included.

 

 

 

It was weird when you tried to justify what the Seanchan are doing by comparing them to an even worse society. It's doubly weird that you try to do it by comparing the Seanchan to a vastly freer society. I mean, of course we haven't seen any open, democratic societies. It would pretty much kill all the conventions of the genre if we did, but that dosen't mean that the fascist military dictatorship ruled by an absolute monarch isn't at least quite a bit worse than monarchies like Andor or Saldaea in which the nobles share a culture in respecting the law and at least trying to do right by their people.

 

The citizen is clearly subordinate to the State in Seanchan, and that's true of the people who are lucky enough not to be damane or hereditary chattel slaves. At least Elayne (and Morgase) and people like King Easar and Queen Tenobia have some notion of responsibility to their citizens that isn't limited to controlling them.

 

 

Vastly "freer?" Seeing the world through tinted glasses now aren't we? Precisely how is Andor more free when it's society is so strictly rooted in classism that it's nigh impossible to forward oneself in life. Among the Seanchan at least it's possible and compared to other nations more commonplace to raise commoners to the blood. In Cairhien this would be an anathema and even in Andor it's unheard of prior to Perrin, who also only managed it through force of arms.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm talking political science, you're just spewing meaningless critical theory jargon. It's a simple and fundamental thing here -- the Seanchan are depicted constantly as placing the rights of citizens as subordinate to the needs of the State. Elevation of the State above all else is the meaning fascism.

 

 

Quite not. The Seanchan don't fulfill any principle of fascism. They're a monarchy for crying out loud. I am really starting to doubt that you even know what exactly entails fascism, because it's certainly not a hereditary monarchy. Also on the second point you're not quite right either. What you're referring to is collectivism which is a hallmark of communist, nationalist, fascist, socialist and feudal thought. Individualism and the "pursuit for happiness" to name an example are rooted in libertarianism and find their roots in the liberal revolutions that raged through the European continent between the Imperial and Industrial age. The concept of the welfare of all being superior to the welfare of the individual, what you're referring to, is much more ancient then fascism. Even more interesting is that this elevation of the State didn't even find its apex in the fascist movement. If one had to choose a nation which most zealously lived out such ideals it would have to be the bolshevist communists under the USSR.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In this case, we're doing it because one of the Seanchan apologists made the absolutely absurd claim that modern democratic societies have police forces comparable to the Seekers of Truth.

 

But yes, I would rather compare them to other Randland societies. They may not be worse than Shara (judging only from the BWB) and they're not worse than the Shaido, but they do seem to be categorically worse than most countries in the Westlands. I would certainly rather live in Seanchan-controlled Tarabon than in (pre-Seanchan) Amadicia, and maybe it would be a draw compared to Tear, but pretty much anywhere in the Westlands outside of Seanchan control would be a better place to live.

 

Really now? You would rather live in the anarchy of Murandy, the famine of Illian, the religious fanaticism of Amadicia, the feudalistic nightmare that is Cairhien, the apartheid state that is Far Madding or the crime haven that is Ebou Dar? You see, I personally would rather live in a stable and safe society where I can ensure the safety and welfare of my family. But that's just me and my definition of better place to live.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Its too hard to view the Seanchan with any objectivity. The simple fact that they collar channelers makes them "evil" in the eyes of the reader.

 

I dont condone slavery at all, obviously, but i believe the Seanchan are getting the hard end of the bargain.

 

Remember the whole scene with Aviendha in ToM was THE AIEL'S FAULT. They decieved everyone to break the Dragon's Peace. The Seanchan respected the compact. Their rule, aside from the whole collaring channelers, Rand admits is better than his own. the Seanchan bring peace, for all of their military rule, the average person lives in peace.

 

So while I do not particularly like the idea of the Raven Empire taking over the world and collaring every channeler, i dont have any sympathy for the Aiel. They got what they deserved in that future viewing thing. They started the war, and dragged everyone else into it with deception.

 

Hmm. Couldn't it be argued that by not releasing Aiel damane after the Last Battle, the Seanchan actually started the war? Can the Seanchan really enslave thousands and expect no repercussions?

By your logic you can argue that it was Perrin's fault for telling the Seanchan to enslave the Shaido. YOu could also say that it was the Shaido's fault for doing the exact same thing. Enslaving people, which made Perrin pissed and go to seanchan for help. Further, you could blame Sammael for sending the Shaido where he did. Then you could blame the Shaido for defecting from the other Aiel. Or the Seanchan for just existing.

 

No, it was the Aiel's choice to start the war. But they didnt just fight 1 v 1, they decieved Andor, forcing them into war, thus the Dragon's peace was broken and the Seanchan dominated the world. The Aiel started the war, peace was held until they broke it.

Meh, "peace" is all relative. Nazi Germany was peaceful too, unless you were Jewish...

 

Mankind has grown strong in eternal struggles and it will only perish through eternal peace. - Adolf Hitler

 

Any alliance whose purpose is not the intention to wage war is senseless and useless. - Adolf Hitler

 

It is not truth that matters, but victory. - Adolf Hitler

 

The very first essential for success is a perpetually constant and regular employment of violence. - Adolf Hitler

 

 

 

RIIIIIIIIIIGHT. Peaceful. Gotcha bro.

[David Selig]

Vastly "freer?" Seeing the world through tinted glasses now aren't we? Precisely how is Andor more free when it's society is so strictly rooted in classism that it's nigh impossible to forward oneself in life. Among the Seanchan at least it's possible and compared to other nations more commonplace to raise commoners to the blood. In Cairhien this would be an anathema and even in Andor it's unheard of prior to Perrin, who also only managed it through force of arms.

Not really, Birgitte was given a title and estate by Elayne, and that didn't merit any comment by Dyelin or the other Andoran nobles and Elayne offered the same thing to Mat, who refused.

 

Not sure on what you base the conclusion that in Andor "it's nigh impossible to forward yourself in life". We've seen that quite a few of the officers in the Queen's Guards (Tallanvor, Mellar, probably Guybon too) were not nobles, Norry the highest ranking administrator in the realm also seem to be a commoner. It's even possible for a commoner to marry the Queen.

 

On the other hand, this is what the Guide says about the Seanchan:

Since Luthair's conquest, Seanchan has evolved into a nation that is stratified and has very little movement between the ranks. That is not to say that there are no power struggles, only that almost all of them are between members of the same class. The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place.

[fatima]

Registered to these forums for the sole purpose of making my thoughts on the Seanchan known: I hate them. I'd rather see the shadow win than see them in control of more than an empty barn.

 

I was hoping Rand would fall to the shadow (I knew it wouldn't happen, but I can hope) just to see him send trollocs to eat the high lords.

same here only registered to say i hate avis future. i had a hard time finishing the book after that. i think i will burn all of my WOT books if that is the case.

[Greka]

At least we got confirmation that, despite Egwene's best efforts in tGS, the Seanchan consider the raid on the WT to be a complete success. So they must have seriously over-estimated how much resistance they would encounter and thought it would be far harder than it was. On their next attack, that might make them think they're facing an even weaker Tower than before, if they're assuming the same level of resistance, taking into account that the Tower now know some of their tactics just as they know much more about Tower layout and defences (or lack of them). And they would only know (if they know which questions to ask) that they have The Amyrlin and assume that with the head off the snake, the WT is in chaos - when the opposite is true.

 

Which is kind of the Seanchan's one weakness. They've fought the southerner armies of the countries that were barely countries to begin with, rather than the far better trained and united Borderlanders, they've fought the Shaido, not the main Aiel forces, they've raided a broken and bleeding WT under a fool Amyrlin. The only real bloody nose they've had was vs Rand and the Asha'man, which is now highly dependent on what happens at BT. They've been handed their victories - what would happen if they were to go up against an equal force or someone using their own tactics?

 

They certainly have won most of their victories by surprise

- Ebou Dar, but it would have fallen anyway

- White Tower, in the middle of a civil war

- Arguably Amadacia, as they conquered the fortress of light at night through air tactics.

 

The only real resistance they faced has been Rand and to a lesser extent Aviendha/Elaynes exploding travelling gate. Illian holds its fortifications but the Seanchan they have the largest standing army (not considering all the aiel nations combined) and now that they have Travelling.

 

This is why in Memory of Light, Rand will kneel to Fortuona in order to get her to sign a peace treaty to fight against the common threat.

I really hope Rand does not kneel to Fortuona. Not without it being clear that Sul'dam can channel, the taint is gone, and they cannot simply conquer the lands owned by a man who died a thousand years previously. It frustrates me to read the book and hear the mentallity of using an a'dam when their is a clear arguement that none of the characters have made.

A.) Giving the sul'dam the power over damane gives them the same power in a nearly just as direct manner. The only difference is that a different women is controlling saidar.

B.) If they were so worried about the damane going wild and ripping everyone apart why not use the oath rod. If someone in the book could please explain that the oath rod makes aes sedai harmless if not attacked I would really appreciate it; moreover, unable to lie.

C.) Sul'dam can channel. Every channaler should be used in the last battle: what a waste.

Anyway, thats my rant, I hope I am not alone in being frustrated reading about the seanchan and then Advieda's visions in the glass pillars.

[Suttree]

When people talk about Fortuona being collared they have to remember as of now it would not work. She either would have to spend much longer working with Damane or make a conscious decision to channel first. There is not really time for the first and the second would take a seachange in her current belief system.

I'm not sure about this, might have to go back and check, but hadn't Tuon already spent at least a few years training damane prior to meeting Mat? Also, I don't think it matters if she has tried to channel in terms of whether the a'dam would work on her. Renna and Seta hadn't tried at the time when they were both collared and left to be discovered in that basement.

 

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something [Winter's Heart Ch. 8].

 

Why it matters is Fortuona is a learner and hasn't spent enough time working with the A'Dam, hence the only way she could be collared is if she consciously decides to learn how to channel. Training damane was a hobby for Tuon, Renna and Seta as Suldam did it for a career working almost constantly.

RJ has stated that as of KoD she hasn't worked enough with the power.

[fatima]

It was wrong to treat blacks terribly in North America, but blacks were not superhuman. It was wrong to treat Jews terribly in Eastern Europe, but Jews were not superhuman. Name any gender, ethnic, religious, or otherwise-based persecution and you'll find that in none of those cases were the persecuted in fact superhuman. There is no analogy. There is no pertinent allegory. This is new, and the fears of the masses cannot be so cavalierly dismissed.

with this reasoning if humanity evolves a super gene today [not magical but say hundred time our intelligence] they will be super humans who can potentially harm us, so they should immediately be given a life sentence.

[Muad Cheade]

At least we got confirmation that, despite Egwene's best efforts in tGS, the Seanchan consider the raid on the WT to be a complete success. So they must have seriously over-estimated how much resistance they would encounter and thought it would be far harder than it was. On their next attack, that might make them think they're facing an even weaker Tower than before, if they're assuming the same level of resistance, taking into account that the Tower now know some of their tactics just as they know much more about Tower layout and defences (or lack of them). And they would only know (if they know which questions to ask) that they have The Amyrlin and assume that with the head off the snake, the WT is in chaos - when the opposite is true.

They still have the element of surprise on the Aes Sedai, as it is not known they have Traveling. It is easier to prepare and defend against an attack via raken and to'raken than one via gateways. Also, the hierarchy of the Tower is currently at the Field of Merrilor.

 

Which is kind of the Seanchan's one weakness. They've fought the southerner armies of the countries that were barely countries to begin with, rather than the far better trained and united Borderlanders, they've fought the Shaido, not the main Aiel forces, they've raided a broken and bleeding WT under a fool Amyrlin. The only real bloody nose they've had was vs Rand and the Asha'man, which is now highly dependent on what happens at BT. They've been handed their victories - what would happen if they were to go up against an equal force or someone using their own tactics?

They have defeated one of the most discipline forces, the Children of the Light. They also fought Rand and Bashere to a standstill. Don't underestimate them; they have the most capable and efficient force in the Westlands. That's why they are called the Ever Victorious Army. Also, the Shaido are still Aiel which says something. hey always react and adapt quickly. We see this with Rand's battle with them in tPoD, with Ituralde's skirmishes and battles in Tarabon, Almoth Plain and Arad Doman, and also with Mat's plan to escape from Altara.

 

When Rand, Perrin, Mat, Verin and the Shienarans used the Portal Stone to get to Almoth Plain, Rand saw an alternate life in which he did not leave the Two Rivers and declare himself Dragon Reborn. In that alternate reality, the Seanchan conquered the world, razed Tar Valon and sowed the ground with salt. Another one of his lives as a soldier in the Queen's Guard implied they were going to do the same. And finally, they do conquer the wold in Avendha's visions.

 

They certainly have won most of their victories by surprise

- Ebou Dar, but it would have fallen anyway

- White Tower, in the middle of a civil war

- Arguably Amadacia, as they conquered the fortress of light at night through air tactics

Since when has utilizing surprise been a bad tactical move?

 

The only real resistance they faced has been Rand and to a lesser extent Aviendha/Elaynes exploding travelling gate. Illian holds its fortifications but the Seanchan they have the largest standing army (not considering all the aiel nations combined) and now that they have Travelling.

They have also faced three/four of the greatest captains of the Westlands in Mat, Ituralde, Bashere and possibly Rand. In each case they adapted quickly. It's what they're known for.

 

This is why in Memory of Light, Rand will kneel to Fortuona in order to get her to sign a peace treaty to fight against the common threat.

I believe so. He can't afford to fight both the Shadow and the Seanchan. One alone is enough to destroy him. Also to enforce a somewhat lasting peace after his death. How this plays out as the Seanchan are about to attack Tar Valon is a mystery to me.

 

I really hope Rand does not kneel to Fortuona. Not without it being clear that Sul'dam can channel, the taint is gone, and they cannot simply conquer the lands owned by a man who died a thousand years previously. It frustrates me to read the book and hear the mentallity of using an a'dam when their is a clear arguement that none of the characters have made.

It is unlikely that fact will ever be told. As for their territorial claims, nations have a hard time giving up land they believe is rightfully theirs. That was one of the causes of World War II.

 

A.) Giving the sul'dam the power over damane gives them the same power in a nearly just as direct manner. The only difference is that a different women is controlling saidar.

A different woman who is not tainted. a gun in the hand of a madman is dangerous. A gun in the hand of a trained police officer is another thing.

 

B.) If they were so worried about the damane going wild and ripping everyone apart why not use the oath rod. If someone in the book could please explain that the oath rod makes aes sedai harmless if not attacked I would really appreciate it; moreover, unable to lie.

They most likely don't have binders.

 

C.) Sul'dam can channel. Every channaler should be used in the last battle: what a waste.

Anyway, thats my rant, I hope I am not alone in being frustrated reading about the seanchan and then Advieda's visions in the glass pillars.

Technically, all of the Seanchan's channelers are being used as it takes two to make an a'dam work. Also, it takes too long time to train a channeler, specifically a "learner." Just look at Bethamin and Seta.

[fatima]

i dont understand the reasoning of a good slavery vs bad serfdom. All systems are open to abuse. There have been tyrants who led their nations to greatness and democracies that are totally dysfunctional but i would still rather have democracy.Similarly people comparing seanchan to westlands are throwing all the grey area into a single category rather than accepting that there are shades in it. in my mind it goes like

SLAVERY

SERFDOM

FEUDALISM

REPRESENTATION

and although none of the countries are great going back to slavery is definite regression specially when seanchan/Tuon are so closed to other views and Rand is trying atleast to bring reforms to areas controlled by him specially Tear. Elayne too even if she is not representative of the whole andoran nobility is a monarch with the right ideas so we can expect andor and cairhein to improve under her rule. I also agree that borderlands can never be too oppressed definitely not to seanchan level so in comparison the seanchan look even worse. Rand vs Tuon is progress vs regression.

but that said i do accept i am biased i have hated seanchan since the beginning and am not likely to change my mind.