Discuss Logain

[Sharaman]

Meanwhile, Perrin did say that he was going to investigate the BT in TAR, so all we'd need is for Perrin to shift the dreamspike in time to let everyone in.

 

Um, I know that forces of the Shadow are rather idiotic, but I still think that after Graendal's fiasco they are going to make the second dreamspike Perrin-proof.

Yes, I'd love to know what Logain, his remaining Dedicated and their AS are cooking, but there doesn't seem to be any clue.

Also, Mezar had a bonded AS too, didn't he? Wonder what happened to her...

If as one suspects, the wolf ability to come through the dome in TAR is unique to wolves/ wolfbroters and thus new, they can't make it Perrin-proof very easily. It would be down to guarding it and there, in TAR, it boils down to the ability of the guards to stop Perrin.

But I think the narrative won't repeat in this respect (Perrin busts the second Dspike).

We'll probably see a new twist.

[General Tam]

How exactly would they make the Dream Spike Perrin proof?? I believe that Logain is gathering forces to attack the BT, but is also waiting for Rand to give the go ahead. I was also disappointed by the lack of Logain in TOM. He has a lot of catching up to do plot wise and I could see there being several Logain chapters in AMOL.

[dwn]

Also, Mezar had a bonded AS too, didn't he? Wonder what happened to her...

 

Apparently Mezar Kurin bonded Adrielle (Grey Ajah). I just verified it from the Encyclopedia WOT references. Since none of Toveine's group was Black Ajah, I suppose that means Adrielle is dead, imprisoned, turned, trapped or Compelled. It's even remotely possible she could be oblivious to Mezar's transformation, I suppose.

 

-- dwn

[night_day]

Is there a chance that Logain discovers a way to reverse the 13x13 turning? I know we've always been told this can't be done, but there are plenty of things in the book we're told can't be done that end up being done.

[dwn]

Is there a chance that Logain discovers a way to reverse the 13x13 turning? I know we've always been told this can't be done, but there are plenty of things in the book we're told can't be done that end up being done.

 

I wouldn't discard the possibility, or that Nynaeve or Flynn figures it out; RJ never said it was impossible, only that it would be unlikely and difficult. Yet I actually hope they do not recover, or that we never find out for sure. A simple healing--whatever it turns out was done to them--would lessen the tragedy of the situation.

 

-- dwn

[Hatrel]

Yeah, I seem to recall that it was hinted that it might be able to be reversed but would take some significant effort. I agree with dwn that it might cheapen the effect if we could make them "all better". I mean we have healed Gentling/Stilling as if they never happened. The Taint has been removed and the Taint-Flavored Madness has been discovered to be healable.

 

I mean soon Nyn will figure out how to raise someone from the dead at this rate!

[Elan Tedronai]

this man has disappeared from the face of the earth. seems like Sanderson does not hold logain in high esteem compared tpo jordan. Which is a shame coz logain is pretty awesome.

 

sanderson seems to think 4 pages of morgase and tea pouring is more important than Logain

[WhiskyJack]

this man has disappeared from the face of the earth. seems like Sanderson does not hold logain in high esteem compared tpo jordan. Which is a shame coz logain is pretty awesome.

 

sanderson seems to think 4 pages of morgase and tea pouring is more important than Logain

 

 

Ahem ..So how many pages or POV were devoted to Logain when RJ was writing the series? High esteem you say...

[WhiskyJack]

Yeah, I seem to recall that it was hinted that it might be able to be reversed but would take some significant effort. I agree with dwn that it might cheapen the effect if we could make them "all better". I mean we have healed Gentling/Stilling as if they never happened. The Taint has been removed and the Taint-Flavored Madness has been discovered to be healable.

 

I mean soon Nyn will figure out how to raise someone from the dead at this rate!

 

 

Damn and I thought Nyn couldn't give Rand his hand back..So Rand is growing one in next book?

[johthohar]

Meanwhile, Perrin did say that he was going to investigate the BT in TAR, so all we'd need is for Perrin to shift the dreamspike in time to let everyone in.

 

Um, I know that forces of the Shadow are rather idiotic, but I still think that after Graendal's fiasco they are going to make the second dreamspike Perrin-proof.

Yes, I'd love to know what Logain, his remaining Dedicated and their AS are cooking, but there doesn't seem to be any clue.

Also, Mezar had a bonded AS too, didn't he? Wonder what happened to her...

 

I seriously doubt you could "Perrin-proof" the dreamspike. Actually, I think Perrin has surpassed most, if not all, of the Forsaken in Dreamwalking. In terms of TAR ability he's shown himself to be close to equal with Slayer who exists almost exclusively in the dream world and therefore, I think, is probably beyond even Moghedien's talent in manipulating it. In fact, after seeing Perrin's training with Hopper and subsequent battle with Slayer, I would say that the most powerful Dreamwalkers are Slayer, Perrin, Egwene, and the Wise Ones. Slayer being foremost among them.

 

That said... I think Perrin's second Rand-saving act will be at the Last Battle and Logain will be the primary hero in the battle for the Black Tower.

[Jeangray]

I seriously doubt you could "Perrin-proof" the dreamspike. Actually, I think Perrin has surpassed most, if not all, of the Forsaken in Dreamwalking.

 

Mm, change the shield frequencies ;)? We have no clue how dreamspikes work, after all, and what is possible with them. Also, the Slayer just left Graendal's dreamspike unprotected, where the wolves could find it for Perrin. I dare say that the BT one is going to be much better guarded. As to Forsaken, well, Ishydin seemed to be using T'AR extensively in the early books and we didn't see Cynfear's chops there either.

 

In any case, IMHO the BT dreamspike will be dealt with by different characters. Maybe Mat will guess it's "sequence" and they will be able to retrieve and use it?

[f3llyn]

I doubt Logain is being held. He knew there was something badly wrong at BT before he sent Mezar there as his messenger, he would have taken precautions.

Mezar would have been questioned about Logain's plans and defences put in place to stop any attack. I think Logain may well be outside already, wandering why gateways don't work.

Meanwhile, Perrin did say that he was going to investigate the BT in TAR, so all we'd need is for Perrin to shift the dreamspike in time to let everyone in.

As I understand the timelines, there is just under a week available for Logain, Naeff, Androl and the AS to meet up and plan while we catch up with Perrin in TAR in the epilogue.

 

So far Rand has been a puppet leader of the BT, ostensibly in charge but with Taim doing his own thing. Once the Black Tower is "rent in blood and fire, and sisters ... walk its grounds" (as per Elaida), Egwene's vision can come true - the puppet breaks and disappears once Logain is in charge.

You're (and almost everyone else from what I've seen) assuming that the Dreamspike only works in TAR. What's to say it doesn't function the same outside of TAR? Imo the only reason the one Slayer had was in there is because that's where Slayer likes to kill from.

 

Unless I missed something and it's stated somewhere that the dreamspike only works in TAR?

[WhiskyJack]

Meanwhile, Perrin did say that he was going to investigate the BT in TAR, so all we'd need is for Perrin to shift the dreamspike in time to let everyone in.

 

Um, I know that forces of the Shadow are rather idiotic, but I still think that after Graendal's fiasco they are going to make the second dreamspike Perrin-proof.

Yes, I'd love to know what Logain, his remaining Dedicated and their AS are cooking, but there doesn't seem to be any clue.

Also, Mezar had a bonded AS too, didn't he? Wonder what happened to her...

 

I seriously doubt you could "Perrin-proof" the dreamspike. Actually, I think Perrin has surpassed most, if not all, of the Forsaken in Dreamwalking. In terms of TAR ability he's shown himself to be close to equal with Slayer who exists almost exclusively in the dream world and therefore, I think, is probably beyond even Moghedien's talent in manipulating it. In fact, after seeing Perrin's training with Hopper and subsequent battle with Slayer, I would say that the most powerful Dreamwalkers are Slayer, Perrin, Egwene, and the Wise Ones. Slayer being foremost among them.

 

That said... I think Perrin's second Rand-saving act will be at the Last Battle and Logain will be the primary hero in the battle for the Black Tower.

 

Rand killed Ishamel and Rahvin in TAR. Nyn took down Moghy and Egwene , Messana. So Forsaken actually don't have much "skill" in TAR as for as Slayer is concerned.

 

Slayer is not a dreamwalker. He goes to TAR in flesh and he cannot see the future (true dreamwalking).

[WhiskyJack]

I doubt Logain is being held. He knew there was something badly wrong at BT before he sent Mezar there as his messenger, he would have taken precautions.

Mezar would have been questioned about Logain's plans and defences put in place to stop any attack. I think Logain may well be outside already, wandering why gateways don't work.

Meanwhile, Perrin did say that he was going to investigate the BT in TAR, so all we'd need is for Perrin to shift the dreamspike in time to let everyone in.

As I understand the timelines, there is just under a week available for Logain, Naeff, Androl and the AS to meet up and plan while we catch up with Perrin in TAR in the epilogue.

 

So far Rand has been a puppet leader of the BT, ostensibly in charge but with Taim doing his own thing. Once the Black Tower is "rent in blood and fire, and sisters ... walk its grounds" (as per Elaida), Egwene's vision can come true - the puppet breaks and disappears once Logain is in charge.

You're (and almost everyone else from what I've seen) that the Dreamspike only works in TAR. What's to say it doesn't function the same outside of TAR? Imo the only reason the one slayer had was in there is because that's where slayer like to kill from.

 

Unless I missed something and it's stated somewhere that the dreamspike only works in TAR?

 

 

I think it's dreamspike for a good reason. And remember the benefits. Not everyone can enter dreamworld or master it. Placing and moving the pike is also simpler in dreamworld...In real world it will be worthless tool, easily destroyed.

[f3llyn]

Nevermind, I was wrong apparently, from the WoT wikia:

 

A dreamspike's other unique property is its interaction with Tel'aran'rhiod. Though it is a physical object and is inside the waking world when inactive, when triggered it disappears from the waking world and plants itself in Tel'aran'rhiod physically.

[johthohar]

I seriously doubt you could "Perrin-proof" the dreamspike. Actually, I think Perrin has surpassed most, if not all, of the Forsaken in Dreamwalking.

 

Mm, change the shield frequencies ;)? We have no clue how dreamspikes work, after all, and what is possible with them. Also, the Slayer just left Graendal's dreamspike unprotected, where the wolves could find it for Perrin. I dare say that the BT one is going to be much better guarded. As to Forsaken, well, Ishydin seemed to be using T'AR extensively in the early books and we didn't see Cynfear's chops there either.

 

In any case, IMHO the BT dreamspike will be dealt with by different characters. Maybe Mat will guess it's "sequence" and they will be able to retrieve and use it?

 

I wouldn't say Slayer left it unprotected. He was within the dome all or most of the time. And he had no reason to believe they would know to look for some kind of dream ter'angreal. Anyway, part of my reason for believing Perrin has surpassed the Forsaken in TAR prowess is that it is an intrinsic component of his being a Wolfbrother. If I'm not mistaken, none of the Forsaken were born Dreamwalkers of anykind like Egwene and simply use the OP to enter TAR in the flesh like Rand has. Experience doesn't necessarily beat natural ability. And of course it will be better guarded but that doesn't make it impossible for Perrin to get at it.

 

And I was essentially saying the same thing at the end of my last post. I doubt Perrin will have anything to do with removing the BT dreamspike aside from confirming there is one there.

 

ANYWAY.... In the interest of getting back on topic.... I think Logain is somewhere gathering some kind of force to retake the Black Tower. Whether or not this is one of the tasks Rand assigned him is debatable but the division in the BT was his primary concern and I think this will be his main arc in aMoL. All the other main characters seem otherwise occupied so despite his inexperience with dreamspikes I think Logain will obviously be the one to resolve the whole Taim dilemma. I mean dreamspikes only block Traveling as far as we know. That's not much of an obstacle if you're outside of the area of effect with a significant force of channelers.

[rambling]

I seriously doubt you could "Perrin-proof" the dreamspike. Actually, I think Perrin has surpassed most, if not all, of the Forsaken in Dreamwalking.

 

Mm, change the shield frequencies ;)? We have no clue how dreamspikes work, after all, and what is possible with them. Also, the Slayer just left Graendal's dreamspike unprotected, where the wolves could find it for Perrin. I dare say that the BT one is going to be much better guarded. As to Forsaken, well, Ishydin seemed to be using T'AR extensively in the early books and we didn't see Cynfear's chops there either.

 

In any case, IMHO the BT dreamspike will be dealt with by different characters. Maybe Mat will guess it's "sequence" and they will be able to retrieve and use it?

 

Mat hasn't the ability go into TAR to retreive it, and that is where it goes when activated - it disappears from the 'real' world.

I agree about Lanfear/Cyndane though. She considers herself much better than Moggy or anyone else in TAR, even calls it her 'domain' in TDR. Perrin does have the option of going back to get Egwene for backup - they're both at FoM. Maybe she could redeem herself a little, and their earlier meeting at the WT would then become a nice bit of forshadowing.

I don't think Moridin will appear, he's got too much stuff on his plate already.

[WhiskyJack]

I seriously doubt you could "Perrin-proof" the dreamspike. Actually, I think Perrin has surpassed most, if not all, of the Forsaken in Dreamwalking.

 

Mm, change the shield frequencies ;)? We have no clue how dreamspikes work, after all, and what is possible with them. Also, the Slayer just left Graendal's dreamspike unprotected, where the wolves could find it for Perrin. I dare say that the BT one is going to be much better guarded. As to Forsaken, well, Ishydin seemed to be using T'AR extensively in the early books and we didn't see Cynfear's chops there either.

 

In any case, IMHO the BT dreamspike will be dealt with by different characters. Maybe Mat will guess it's "sequence" and they will be able to retrieve and use it?

 

I wouldn't say Slayer left it unprotected. He was within the dome all or most of the time. And he had no reason to believe they would know to look for some kind of dream ter'angreal. Anyway, part of my reason for believing Perrin has surpassed the Forsaken in TAR prowess is that it is an intrinsic component of his being a Wolfbrother. If I'm not mistaken, none of the Forsaken were born Dreamwalkers of anykind like Egwene and simply use the OP to enter TAR in the flesh like Rand has. Experience doesn't necessarily beat natural ability. And of course it will be better guarded but that doesn't make it impossible for Perrin to get at it.

And I was essentially saying the same thing at the end of my last post. I doubt Perrin will have anything to do with removing the BT dreamspike aside from confirming there is one there.

 

ANYWAY.... In the interest of getting back on topic.... I think Logain is somewhere gathering some kind of force to retake the Black Tower. Whether or not this is one of the tasks Rand assigned him is debatable but the division in the BT was his primary concern and I think this will be his main arc in aMoL. All the other main characters seem otherwise occupied so despite his inexperience with dreamspikes I think Logain will obviously be the one to resolve the whole Taim dilemma. I mean dreamspikes only block Traveling as far as we know. That's not much of an obstacle if you're outside of the area of effect with a significant force of channelers.

 

Rand already knows the existence of one (well I am guessing that he does seeing that he failed to make a gateway there) around BT.I think Perrin will save his life in TAR only place he truly can.. Him and Rand vs Slayer and few dreadlords;)

[johthohar]

You're (and almost everyone else from what I've seen) assuming that the Dreamspike only works in TAR. What's to say it doesn't function the same outside of TAR? Imo the only reason the one Slayer had was in there is because that's where Slayer likes to kill from.

 

Unless I missed something and it's stated somewhere that the dreamspike only works in TAR?

But if Taim has it, he wouldn't hide it in TAR where he couldn't keep an eye on it. He'd keep it where it's easily accessible to him.

 

I don't think it's been stated anywhere specifically, but I think it's called a dreamspike because it exists only in the dream. That's the point. If it existed in the real world then anybody could walk by and pick it up and be like "Oh... I think I'll carry this somewhere else. Or maybe toss it into the ocean to avoid the inconveniences that come along with it being here." It's a dreamspike so that only people who can enter TAR can frak with it.

 

I seriously doubt you could "Perrin-proof" the dreamspike. Actually, I think Perrin has surpassed most, if not all, of the Forsaken in Dreamwalking. In terms of TAR ability he's shown himself to be close to equal with Slayer who exists almost exclusively in the dream world and therefore, I think, is probably beyond even Moghedien's talent in manipulating it. In fact, after seeing Perrin's training with Hopper and subsequent battle with Slayer, I would say that the most powerful Dreamwalkers are Slayer, Perrin, Egwene, and the Wise Ones. Slayer being foremost among them.

 

That said... I think Perrin's second Rand-saving act will be at the Last Battle and Logain will be the primary hero in the battle for the Black Tower.

 

Rand killed Ishamel and Rahvin in TAR. Nyn took down Moghy and Egwene , Messana. So Forsaken actually don't have much "skill" in TAR as for as Slayer is concerned.

 

Slayer is not a dreamwalker. He goes to TAR in flesh and he cannot see the future (true dreamwalking).

 

You're kinda making my point for me as far as the Forsaken go. And Slayer lives in the dream. He exists primarily in the dreamworld instead of the real world. Not to mention the fact that he has demonstrated some serious pwnage on known TAR experts. Directly and indirectly. Well... I guess just Perrin and the wolves... But still you can't deny that he's a TAR badass.

[Jeangray]

If it existed in the real world then anybody could walk by and pick it up and be like "Oh... I think I'll carry this somewhere else.

 

On the contrary, in the waking world, it could be protected with lethal wards that nobody would be able to just "disbelieve" away.

 

And Slayer lives in the dream. He exists primarily in the dreamworld instead of the real world.

 

I always thought that Ishydin could touch T'AR even when he wasn't physically free from the Bore... Rand killing him in T'AR means nothing regarding his expertise, IMHO as Rand is the strongest ta'veren ever, had those handy LTT reflexes and instincts even then and was also wielding one of the most powerful sa'angreal ever. I doubt that anybody could have stood against Rand, including Perrin from ToM ;).

 

Anyway, I kinda wish for Androl and Pevara to handle the mess at the BT now. Logain has been away for far too long and it would be nice for not super-powerful characters to do something important once in a while.

[johthohar]

If it existed in the real world then anybody could walk by and pick it up and be like "Oh... I think I'll carry this somewhere else.

 

On the contrary, in the waking world, it could be protected with lethal wards that nobody would be able to just "disbelieve" away.

 

I suppose. But it seems implicit to me that the dreamspike is something meant for the dream world and not the real world. IMO anyway.

 

And Slayer lives in the dream. He exists primarily in the dreamworld instead of the real world.

 

I always thought that Ishydin could touch T'AR even when he wasn't physically free from the Bore... Rand killing him in T'AR means nothing regarding his expertise, IMHO as Rand is the strongest ta'veren ever, had those handy LTT reflexes and instincts even then and was also wielding one of the most powerful sa'angreal ever. I doubt that anybody could have stood against Rand, including Perrin from ToM ;).

 

Anyway, I kinda wish for Androl and Pevara to handle the mess at the BT now. Logain has been away for far too long and it would be nice for not super-powerful characters to do something important once in a while.

 

You're missing my point. I'm saying that Slayer has demonstrated more talent in TAR than any other character we've seen thus far. Again this is only my opinion.

[WhiskyJack]

If it existed in the real world then anybody could walk by and pick it up and be like "Oh... I think I'll carry this somewhere else.

 

On the contrary, in the waking world, it could be protected with lethal wards that nobody would be able to just "disbelieve" away.

 

I suppose. But it seems implicit to me that the dreamspike is something meant for the dream world and not the real world. IMO anyway.

 

And Slayer lives in the dream. He exists primarily in the dreamworld instead of the real world.

 

I always thought that Ishydin could touch T'AR even when he wasn't physically free from the Bore... Rand killing him in T'AR means nothing regarding his expertise, IMHO as Rand is the strongest ta'veren ever, had those handy LTT reflexes and instincts even then and was also wielding one of the most powerful sa'angreal ever. I doubt that anybody could have stood against Rand, including Perrin from ToM ;).

 

Anyway, I kinda wish for Androl and Pevara to handle the mess at the BT now. Logain has been away for far too long and it would be nice for not super-powerful characters to do something important once in a while.

 

You're missing my point. I'm saying that Slayer has demonstrated more talent in TAR than any other character we've seen thus far. Again this is only my opinion.

 

 

1) Dreamspike is meant to be unseen (and the DOME). As proven by Mat example, just because I cannot touch something doesn't mean I cannot blow it away. I wonder what would be the effect of balfire on that dome or dreamspike itself...

 

2) Being a channeler has NO meaning whatsoever in TAR. TAR is not meant for human even though they invade that world from time to time. Perrin can never match Slayer because Slayer is there in flesh but otherwise Perrin can crush anyone else in TAR. So yes, at the moment, Slayer is KING of TAR.

[rambling]

The dremspike exists in the 'real' world until it is activated, at which point it disappears and reappears in TAR.

Once activated you can not affect it in the 'real' world, because it is not there, if you want to balefire it you'd have to do it in TAR.

[Mighty Chin]

You heard it here first. I think Logain is with Myrelle. I think he was in her tent when Nynaeve came to take Lan's bond.

 

There was no indication but I'm going with my gut!

[johthohar]

You heard it here first. I think Logain is with Myrelle. I think he was in her tent when Nynaeve came to take Lan's bond.

 

There was no indication but I'm going with my gut!

 

I kinda like this.... Do you know what chapter the Nynaeve taking Lan's bond is in? I want to reread it now.