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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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Luckers

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Just finished the book. Love the new Rand. It’s a bit jarring to see him expressing a full range of emotions again after all the anger, angst and more anger.

 

Also good to see evidence for my long held beliefs that: 1) Rand and LTT were always meant to merge and he/they weren’t quite complete until the process was completed. 2) Rand and LTT are the same person.

 

I see theories afloat about Rand gaining a new power (Divine Power/Light Power). I believe Rand is just using a pre-existing power he already has: his Ta’verenism. Ta’verens bend threads around them and I think Rand is learning how to exert some form of control over this effect. He threaten to Cadsuane with it in tGS (“Do you think I could stop your heart by willing it?”) and this is what I think he tried on Tuon. Perrin also seems to acknowledge his Ta’veren effect on other people when he mentions to Elayne(?), “You must be tired. I have that effect on people when I’m Ta’verening them.” (I’m paraphrasing of course.)

 

I also see some theories on Rand’s ability to wield the True Power and how he will use it against the Dark One. So I wonder if I am in the minority in thinking, Yes he still has access to the TP because the DO wants him to have it (even now) but it will be the DO who will use the TP against Rand.

 

Yea, I'm not sure how much of this thread you've read but the theories have been all over the place ranging from (my reaction) "Yea, I'm pretty sure that's what's going on." to "What the hell was your mom smoking while you were in the womb?!" You're the first one I've seen articulate so clearly that you think he's directly influencing his ta'veren nature. I like the theory, but I almost feel like this would be cheating. If he could make things happen just by willing them it would take the challenge out of the rest of the battle. Maybe he can control it to an extent but I think its more likely the apples and Far Madding food shipment, etc. were more likely the result of his new positive attitude and reconciliation with LTT persona.

 

I also think it should be assumed that he still has access to the TP as we have no evidence that his link with Moridin is broken and that was most likely the source of it in the first place. The idea that his link with Moridin broke just because he turned all happy-go-lucky is ridiculous IMO.

 

You know, sort of like, “Feel you anger, Luke Rand. Use your hatred to make you powerful. Destroy your father Moridin and take his place by my side.”

 

Haha! Love the Star Wars ref. Made me lol.

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Yea, I'm not sure how much of this thread you've read but the theories have been all over the place ranging from (my reaction) "Yea, I'm pretty sure that's what's going on." to "What the hell was your mom smoking while you were in the womb?!" You're the first one I've seen articulate so clearly that you think he's directly influencing his ta'veren nature. I like the theory, but I almost feel like this would be cheating. If he could make things happen just by willing them it would take the challenge out of the rest of the battle. Maybe he can control it to an extent but I think its more likely the apples and Far Madding food shipment, etc. were more likely the result of his new positive attitude and reconciliation with LTT persona.

 

I also think it should be assumed that he still has access to the TP as we have no evidence that his link with Moridin is broken and that was most likely the source of it in the first place. The idea that his link with Moridin broke just because he turned all happy-go-lucky is ridiculous IMO.

Yeah, I need to backtrack on how he can control the Pattern. Not so much that he can bend the Pattern to his will, rather that he can sense the Pattern at work around him and can use it to his advantage. I don't think he can kill people by willing it. More like, okay, the Wheel's working in my favour; You, you and you, let's fix Bandar Eban. I also apply this to the Borderlanders. He knew they would join him, which is why he took the slaps and blows, even though he was stupefied by why they were doing it.

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I still don't get why neither Min nor Avi had told Rand that Elayne is pregnant, BTW.

 

Maybe Min got so drunk she forgot about the infamous viewing about Elayne's babies, but why didn't Avi told Rand when they were together in Arad Doman? Even Nynaeve could've told him after she learned about in ToM, yet she didn't. You'd have expected her to berate him for having premarital sex and babies out of wedlock against the Two Rivers customs. ;)

 

I guess Jordan has planned for it to be a major surprise for Rand and to affect the plot in some important way.

Well they all know Elayne. They would know she would want to be the one to tell him. And they probably all came to the conclusion that maybe it might not be best for Rand to have that kind of distraction with the fate of the world resting on his shoulders.

 

In his mind, he thinks he's going to die. I think this will allow him to make a risky decision that will result in almost certain death. But if he knows he has children? All of a sudden he might want to see that future and prevent him from making that sort of decision. He's always said he didn't want to think of living beyond TG, because that would give him false hope.

 

Besides that, he always thought he should die because of the actions he has been forced to take as a punishment. At least up until the end of TGS.

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What do you think will happen when rand finds out about elayne being pregnant ? And how do you think he will find out ?

 

Well they are both at Field of M. So I think that he will notice very soon. Hopefully, either Perin or someone will let him know soon so it will not be a surprise.

 

Not a good idea to let his enemies know that he has a potential weakness.

 

It will still be a shock to him, it might make him change his views on the last battle when he finds out. And what of avi? i dont fink she is pregnant yet.

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I think it's possible that Rand could channel the True Power, considering that anyone can that the DO wishes and its possible he thinks Rand still might turn, but I think it is irrelevant as to whether he can. The simple of it is, he won't. To channel the True Power would be to betray the change that he underwent at Dragonmount. He knows what it is and he knows he shouldn't touch it. As Lews Therin said in TGS, "better to kill again than this" or something along those lines.

 

As for his ta'veren, I think he has some measure of control over it, similar to Mat's luck, perhaps. In the WT, all of the Sisters felt a squeezing of their heart so that they couldn't speak, leaving them unable to interfere. That would also be Rand's backup plan to break free in case Egwene didn't let him go. Hence the "Don't make me (ta'veren) you" look. He also seems to know what his ta'veren will do. In Bandar Eban, he first asked if What's His Face had checked all the sacks. When he learned he hadn't, that allowed him to manipulate chance, creating that epic scene.

 

Other than that, Rand's awesome. =D

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What do you think will happen when rand finds out about elayne being pregnant ? And how do you think he will find out ?

 

Well they are both at Field of M. So I think that he will notice very soon. Hopefully, either Perin or someone will let him know soon so it will not be a surprise.

 

Not a good idea to let his enemies know that he has a potential weakness.

 

It will still be a shock to him, it might make him change his views on the last battle when he finds out. And what of avi? i dont fink she is pregnant yet.

She's not. She's always said she would only go to Rand as an equal and not a lesser. That means she wouldn't be with him until she's a full fledged Wise One.

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What do you think will happen when rand finds out about elayne being pregnant ? And how do you think he will find out ?

 

Well they are both at Field of M. So I think that he will notice very soon. Hopefully, either Perin or someone will let him know soon so it will not be a surprise.

 

Not a good idea to let his enemies know that he has a potential weakness.

 

It will still be a shock to him, it might make him change his views on the last battle when he finds out. And what of avi? i dont fink she is pregnant yet.

She's not. She's always said she would only go to Rand as an equal and not a lesser. That means she wouldn't be with him until she's a full fledged Wise One.

 

It will interesting at start of MOL when rand finds out that elayne is pregnant, and when he see's avi again for the first time in a long time. And also when mat and tom arrive with morraine.

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It will interesting at start of MOL when rand finds out that elayne is pregnant, and when he see's avi again for the first time in a long time. And also when mat and tom arrive with morraine.

 

I don't think we should expect too much in concern to Rand finding out about Elayne's pregnancy or meeting with Avi. Rand Sedai will just smile. When he sees Mo'.. oh that's going to be very interesting.

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It will interesting at start of MOL when rand finds out that elayne is pregnant, and when he see's avi again for the first time in a long time. And also when mat and tom arrive with morraine.

 

I don't think we should expect too much in concern to Rand finding out about Elayne's pregnancy or meeting with Avi. Rand Sedai will just smile. When he sees Mo'.. oh that's going to be very interesting.

 

I think he will be very happy when he finds out that elayne is pregnant, and he also will be happy when he see's avi again. I fink the new rand might actually crie when he see's moraine again.

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Guest LarryBarthel

I think it's possible that Rand could channel the True Power, considering that anyone can that the DO wishes and its possible he thinks Rand still might turn, but I think it is irrelevant as to whether he can. The simple of it is, he won't. To channel the True Power would be to betray the change that he underwent at Dragonmount. He knows what it is and he knows he shouldn't touch it. As Lews Therin said in TGS, "better to kill again than this" or something along those lines.

 

As for his ta'veren, I think he has some measure of control over it, similar to Mat's luck, perhaps. In the WT, all of the Sisters felt a squeezing of their heart so that they couldn't speak, leaving them unable to interfere. That would also be Rand's backup plan to break free in case Egwene didn't let him go. Hence the "Don't make me (ta'veren) you" look. He also seems to know what his ta'veren will do. In Bandar Eban, he first asked if What's His Face had checked all the sacks. When he learned he hadn't, that allowed him to manipulate chance, creating that epic scene.

 

Other than that, Rand's awesome. =D

I believe that Rand either CAN channel the TP, or still thinks he can. It would explain his extreme confidence in walking into Tar Valon to face Egwene, with multiple 13's of Aes Sedai around him (i.e. they'd try to shield him and he'd just TP his way out of it). Same with Far Madding. Also, remember what Nynaeve saw when she looked into Rand's mind (that white, liquid power that was coating the black spiny thing that is Rand's madness). So, perhaps Rand used or is using the TP to keep himself sane (or perhaps LTT did it in the moment of their joining). Nynaeve would have commented if it felt like saidin (having been part of the link that channeled an enormous amount of saidin into Shadar Logoth, she should be able to identify it if she's able to see it).

 

To take the loony a step further, perhaps the TP comes from both the DO and the Creator, and Rand, representing the Creator's side, has access to the TP. Just not the DO's TP.

 

As far as ta'veren, I think it's just the common theme that the ta'veren are finally accepting their warping of the Pattern. Perrin references it when Galad agrees to be under his command, even warning Galad that he'll feel weak because he was just affected by a ta'veren. Matt has fully accepted how his dice work in his head, abandoning all pretense that his luck and the dice are anything but useful and extensions of himself. So why can't Rand accept and use his circumstance as the center of a Pattern reweaving? Rand has finally accepted that he's the Dragon, he's got important things to do, and he's got himself together and can stop whining about it. "Why is this happening to me?" has finally turned into "This is happened because I am who I am". I don't think he "controls" the Pattern, but he does seem to be influencing it as an island of "anti-DO".

 

Weather clearing in Caemlyn: It's cuz Rand is bonded to Elayne. Didn't see it too much with Min, cuz she's always with him now, and Avi is in the three-fold land, where it wasn't stormy anyway. Wonder what the weather's like where Alanna is? I'll bet the bond-transmitted anti-DO field is radiating from her too. And I'll bet this becomes key in confining the DO when the last seal is broken... :)

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I think the True Source came from the Creator.

 

That would not surprise me at all. Or rather, it would not surprise me if the DO and Creator are both sources of the "True Source".

 

Or perhaps they can each grant access to their chosen champions.

DO grants to Moridin and enables him to distribute access.

Creator does the same for Rand.

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I think it's possible that Rand could channel the True Power, considering that anyone can that the DO wishes and its possible he thinks Rand still might turn, but I think it is irrelevant as to whether he can. The simple of it is, he won't. To channel the True Power would be to betray the change that he underwent at Dragonmount. He knows what it is and he knows he shouldn't touch it. As Lews Therin said in TGS, "better to kill again than this" or something along those lines.

 

As for his ta'veren, I think he has some measure of control over it, similar to Mat's luck, perhaps. In the WT, all of the Sisters felt a squeezing of their heart so that they couldn't speak, leaving them unable to interfere. That would also be Rand's backup plan to break free in case Egwene didn't let him go. Hence the "Don't make me (ta'veren) you" look. He also seems to know what his ta'veren will do. In Bandar Eban, he first asked if What's His Face had checked all the sacks. When he learned he hadn't, that allowed him to manipulate chance, creating that epic scene.

 

Other than that, Rand's awesome. =D

I believe that Rand either CAN channel the TP, or still thinks he can. It would explain his extreme confidence in walking into Tar Valon to face Egwene, with multiple 13's of Aes Sedai around him (i.e. they'd try to shield him and he'd just TP his way out of it). Same with Far Madding. Also, remember what Nynaeve saw when she looked into Rand's mind (that white, liquid power that was coating the black spiny thing that is Rand's madness). So, perhaps Rand used or is using the TP to keep himself sane (or perhaps LTT did it in the moment of their joining). Nynaeve would have commented if it felt like saidin (having been part of the link that channeled an enormous amount of saidin into Shadar Logoth, she should be able to identify it if she's able to see it).

 

To take the loony a step further, perhaps the TP comes from both the DO and the Creator, and Rand, representing the Creator's side, has access to the TP. Just not the DO's TP.

 

As far as ta'veren, I think it's just the common theme that the ta'veren are finally accepting their warping of the Pattern. Perrin references it when Galad agrees to be under his command, even warning Galad that he'll feel weak because he was just affected by a ta'veren. Matt has fully accepted how his dice work in his head, abandoning all pretense that his luck and the dice are anything but useful and extensions of himself. So why can't Rand accept and use his circumstance as the center of a Pattern reweaving? Rand has finally accepted that he's the Dragon, he's got important things to do, and he's got himself together and can stop whining about it. "Why is this happening to me?" has finally turned into "This is happened because I am who I am". I don't think he "controls" the Pattern, but he does seem to be influencing it as an island of "anti-DO".

 

Weather clearing in Caemlyn: It's cuz Rand is bonded to Elayne. Didn't see it too much with Min, cuz she's always with him now, and Avi is in the three-fold land, where it wasn't stormy anyway. Wonder what the weather's like where Alanna is? I'll bet the bond-transmitted anti-DO field is radiating from her too. And I'll bet this becomes key in confining the DO when the last seal is broken... :)

 

Rand mentioned when he was meeting with the borderlanders in TOM that the gaurdian only prevents the one power, which means that he can channel the true power and he had to use it against SEM

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That was different circumstances. Not only was it one of the Forsaken who had him imprisoned and killing the person he loved, he was also in a far worse state. I don't think he felt threatened by the Borderlanders and Cadsuane was enough of a back-up plan if things somehow did get that ugly. And he had ta'veren.

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Rand mentioned when he was meeting with the borderlanders in TOM that the gaurdian only prevents the one power, which means that he can channel the true power and he had to use it against SEM

 

He says it in the past tense though. So it's still unclear if he can use the True Power or not.

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Rand mentioned when he was meeting with the borderlanders in TOM that the gaurdian only prevents the one power, which means that he can channel the true power and he had to use it against SEM

 

He says it in the past tense though. So it's still unclear if he can use the True Power or not.

 

To clarify what f3llyn is saying, he says that had they done that a week ago he would have used balefire on them, implying that he had access to and was willing to use the TP pre-VoG (aka epiphany on Dragonmount). I agree though that he still has access to it. We have to assume he does until there is some kind of evidence to the contrary.

 

@f3llyn: I fixed your quote fail. :wink: You're welcome.

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Rand mentioned when he was meeting with the borderlanders in TOM that the gaurdian only prevents the one power, which means that he can channel the true power and he had to use it against SEM

 

He says it in the past tense though. So it's still unclear if he can use the True Power or not.

 

To clarify what f3llyn is saying, he says that had they done that a week ago he would have used balefire on them, implying that he had access to and was willing to use the TP pre-VoG (aka epiphany on Dragonmount). I agree though that he still has access to it. We have to assume he does until there is some kind of evidence to the contrary.

 

@f3llyn: I fixed your quote fail. :wink: You're welcome.

Yep, that's what I meant. Thanks. Not sure why that quote broke, must have posted when I was really tired because I don't remember it. :laugh:

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When Rand is in Far Madding and other instances and talking in the past tense, he's simply making the distinction that in the past he wouldn't tolerate people NOT agreeing with him. Rand is remembering how "hard" he was. As for as the True Source, it's already been established that the True Source spins "The Wheel Of Time". The TP can be both light and dark, Rand however will not use it against "Humans/good" just because they don't agree with him.

As in Far Maddening, he can bypass the "block" on saidar/saidin using the TP. Just as if in the Whitetower even if shielded, he could have used the TP to free himself.

 

As far as the Trolloc scene, Rand was using the True Source to power up his channeling. No "regular" human could can the amounts Rand was unaided with Callandor or that other strong one.

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Where has that been established?

 

And again the Ashaman could see his weaves so there was no True Power at work there.

 

And for the record:

 

True Source: Saidar/Saidin

 

True Power: The Dark One's own power.

 

And the True Power has characteristics more akin to chaos and a drug than anything else so why would you think it's connected to anything good and the light?

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Ok ok, it's implied and I didn't mean that dark True Power alone spins The Wheel of Time. It's both light and dark constantly in conflicts that spins The Wheel. It's your basic duality archetype storyline. Rand will never "win" or "kill" the Dark One. Just as the creator is immortal and archetypical, so too is the Dark One. The best that Rand can accomplished is stopping the current "avatar" whether its Rand becoming corrupted or Moridin and cresting "new seals".

 

Once again, I point to the fights between Rand and the Forsaken. rand glimpse thick black wires attached to various Forsaken. This is the figurative description of the Forsaken's attachment to the Dark One and the "True Source". Ergo, much of the Forsaken's power is derived by the True Power. It's telling that something given to them as powerful as the True Power could simply be "cut off" by Rand and Saidin alone. Already Rand had been able to tap the light side of the True Power in those duals.

 

As far as the name "The True Power" that is the name given to the Forsaken by the vessel of the Dark One. If your the dark one wouldn't you want people to think yours in the only "True Power"? This is just basic propaganda on the Dark One's side. Always look at the symbology Robert Jordan and basic philosophies have given. The Aes Sedai and Yiin Yamg symbol both symbolizes a dual nature that is shared. One cannot exist without the other.

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Ok ok, it's implied and I didn't mean that dark True Power alone spins The Wheel of Time. It's both light and dark constantly in conflicts that spins The Wheel. It's your basic duality archetype storyline. Rand will never "win" or "kill" the Dark One. Just as the creator is immortal and archetypical, so too is the Dark One. The best that Rand can accomplished is stopping the current "avatar" whether its Rand becoming corrupted or Moridin and cresting "new seals".

 

Once again, I point to the fights between Rand and the Forsaken. rand glimpse thick black wires attached to various Forsaken. This is the figurative description of the Forsaken's attachment to the Dark One and the "True Source". Ergo, much of the Forsaken's power is derived by the True Power. It's telling that something given to them as powerful as the True Power could simply be "cut off" by Rand and Saidin alone. Already Rand had been able to tap the light side of the True Power in those duals.

 

As far as the name "The True Power" that is the name given to the Forsaken by the vessel of the Dark One. If your the dark one wouldn't you want people to think yours in the only "True Power"? This is just basic propaganda on the Dark One's side. Always look at the symbology Robert Jordan and basic philosophies have given. The Aes Sedai and Yiin Yamg symbol both symbolizes a dual nature that is shared. One cannot exist without the other.

 

One, if your theory is true, than that means that the True Power is on the evil side of the bargain, so Rand using it still equals BAD (and therefore unlikely, considering his present state)

 

Secondly, the black wires attached to the MALE forsaken is the Dark One's protection against the taint on saidin, as established in the books. The True Power is a gift the DO bestows upon his loyal servants, relinquishable at any given time.

 

Finally, the dual forces driving the Wheel of Time are saidin and saidar; the True Power was only discovered when the Bore was drilled through the DO's prison.

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Ok ok, it's implied and I didn't mean that dark True Power alone spins The Wheel of Time. It's both light and dark constantly in conflicts that spins The Wheel. It's your basic duality archetype storyline. Rand will never "win" or "kill" the Dark One. Just as the creator is immortal and archetypical, so too is the Dark One. The best that Rand can accomplished is stopping the current "avatar" whether its Rand becoming corrupted or Moridin and cresting "new seals".

 

Once again, I point to the fights between Rand and the Forsaken. rand glimpse thick black wires attached to various Forsaken. This is the figurative description of the Forsaken's attachment to the Dark One and the "True Source". Ergo, much of the Forsaken's power is derived by the True Power. It's telling that something given to them as powerful as the True Power could simply be "cut off" by Rand and Saidin alone. Already Rand had been able to tap the light side of the True Power in those duals.

 

As far as the name "The True Power" that is the name given to the Forsaken by the vessel of the Dark One. If your the dark one wouldn't you want people to think yours in the only "True Power"? This is just basic propaganda on the Dark One's side. Always look at the symbology Robert Jordan and basic philosophies have given. The Aes Sedai and Yiin Yamg symbol both symbolizes a dual nature that is shared. One cannot exist without the other.

 

Your getting confused between the true source and true power :biggrin:

 

If you arent getting confused, the True Power (that is the DO's essance is in no way "good". it is the essance of chaos. It destroys the pattern. While it can be used for good purposes, ie Rand escaping Semirhage, it is an evil power. Lews Therin would rather have killed Min and been taken to SG before using the TP, and with good reason.

 

The True Source (Saidar and Saidin) is a neutral power. it is the fuel in the proverbial car that is the Wheel of Time. It is not the "Light Power", it has already been established this is so.

 

 

On subject, its probably been discussed to death but I would like to put my opinion in.

 

I am glad to see the new Rand. After the previews before the release, people were going crazy because they thought Rand was too hippy. I didnt think so, and I am glad I was correct. Rand is near perfect in this state. He is 420 years old, has complete knowledge of the greatest man in the Age of Legends and is no hippy humble pushover. He is still arrogant (perhaps not the best word, self-assured in a good way), he admits mistakes and takes advice now, however, he stands up for his beliefs and can be totally Castle Balefire badass without the maddness and well...dangerous amounts of pattern threatening balefire.

 

He is also now one of the few REAL Aes Sedai in the world, along with Nynaeve Moiraine and (dare i say) Cadsuane. He is one cunning SOB without the complete arrogance and self-importance/cold detachment to the world.

 

The best thing he did in ToM, to me in any case, was not the Storm of Light, but the way he totally Aes Sedai-ed Egwene like she was a child. He got her to do exactly what he wanted her to while she thought it was her own idea without knowing she was playing into his "trap" i suppose.

 

He has done some pretty screwed up crap in the past, and was at times a complete idiot, but at the moment, he is completely awesome.

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As far as the Trolloc scene, Rand was using the True Source to power up his channeling. No "regular" human could can the amounts Rand was unaided with Callandor or that other strong one.

 

Rand's integration with his past self of Lews Therin has not changed the volume of the Power he can hold unaided. But it has given him complete unrestricted access to his past skill in using that power. Notice Naef (sp?) didn't mention anything about how much Power Rand held but what he did with it: thousands of weaves all at once; and the use of angreal and sa'angreal doesn't effect ones use of the Power only how much Power one can hold. It's only really now we're seeing the power of Lews Therin.

 

And I've said this before.. Lews Therin was simply that bad ass.

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Ok ok, it's implied and I didn't mean that dark True Power alone spins The Wheel of Time. It's both light and dark constantly in conflicts that spins The Wheel. It's your basic duality archetype storyline. Rand will never "win" or "kill" the Dark One. Just as the creator is immortal and archetypical, so too is the Dark One. The best that Rand can accomplished is stopping the current "avatar" whether its Rand becoming corrupted or Moridin and cresting "new seals".

 

Once again, I point to the fights between Rand and the Forsaken. rand glimpse thick black wires attached to various Forsaken. This is the figurative description of the Forsaken's attachment to the Dark One and the "True Source". Ergo, much of the Forsaken's power is derived by the True Power. It's telling that something given to them as powerful as the True Power could simply be "cut off" by Rand and Saidin alone. Already Rand had been able to tap the light side of the True Power in those duals.

 

As far as the name "The True Power" that is the name given to the Forsaken by the vessel of the Dark One. If your the dark one wouldn't you want people to think yours in the only "True Power"? This is just basic propaganda on the Dark One's side. Always look at the symbology Robert Jordan and basic philosophies have given. The Aes Sedai and Yiin Yamg symbol both symbolizes a dual nature that is shared. One cannot exist without the other.

The black umbilical cords that Rand sees attached to the male Forsaken was their protection against the taint in Saidin. Consider it a new talent that Rand has, or had as there is no more need for it. As for the rest, only Moridin has access to the True Power, and later Graendal, for a short time.

 

While yes, there is good and bad sides as you point out, that has nothing to do with Saidin/Saidar and the True Power. One is clearly evil while the other is neutral only, it's "goodness" is merely determined by the person who wields it. Rand does have some sort of light power in play, as we see by how he blinds Dark Friends, drives them mad, etc, and the light in his mind that protects him from the taint/madness it has nothing to do with a "light sided True Power".

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