Mat's Memories

[EvilSocrates]

What, exactly, is the deal with Matt's memories? I always kind of enjoyed the idea that they were at least partly from his past heroic incarnations. Mat himself seems to think they are all from people who went into Finnland. But why would so many crazy good generals go there? Why would the Finns give him exclusively awesome soldier/general/hero memories if they just picked random memories from people they bargained with in the past?

 

Also, didn't Artur Hawkwing recognize him somehow--I don't really remember that interaction and don't have that book anymore.

[WhiteJoker]

What, exactly, is the deal with Matt's memories? I always kind of enjoyed the idea that they were at least partly from his past heroic incarnations. Mat himself seems to think they are all from people who went into Finnland. But why would so many crazy good generals go there? Why would the Finns give him exclusively awesome soldier/general/hero memories if they just picked random memories from people they bargained with in the past?

 

Also, didn't Artur Hawkwing recognize him somehow--I don't really remember that interaction and don't have that book anymore.

Artur recognizes Rand, not Mat. As for Mat's memories, they can't be his soul's past memories because he recalls being somebody in one memory and then he recalls seeing the same person in different periods of their life from different memories. The implication is that the memories he has aren't linear in progression and that there's overlap.

 

As for the door, why wouldn't they? So far as we saw there was no noticable price to be paid for the answers to any three questions you wanted answered (and I suspect the price was just a copy of your memories). Who wouldn't take that deal? We as the readers know that the Finn can't be trusted because they twist things but that knowledge we only have through Mat's experiences. Everybody else just has a half-remembered legend of a door that gives you the answer to three questions no matter what those questions are.

 

Also, we don't know if the memories Mat has are all from prominent people. We get memories from the prominent because they tend to crop up only when Mat's in a situation which requires that knowledge, but for all we know, when Mat's out drinking, he also has memories of sketchy bums getting trashed. That said, consider where the door that led to the Alfinn was; hidden away in a storeroom of the Stone of Tear. It stands to reason that for however long Stone's had the door only nobles have gone through it and we don't know the circumstances of that door before it fell into Tear's hands however I'd wager that it was fairly tightly controlled which implies that only people of prominence would have had access to it in the first place.

[EvilSocrates]

Thanks for the reply. Makes sense. I have a few further thoughts:

 

1) I have heard it discussed that while most of Mat's memories come from the Finns, that he is still the reincarnation of the guy who was captain of the guard during the fall of Mantharen, because of things he says or does or remembers before the Finns. If so, he may still be some guy who typically ends up in leadership or general type roles in the pattern, and now is just complemented with other memories. His instincts, after all, seem solid. He doesn't just have knowledge, he is quite capable of applying it, and does so intuitively. What do you think about that; you seem to remember the earlier books better than I?

 

2) A possible explanation for why he ends up with all those handy awesome general and hero memories by chance. I know that if I were getting RANDOM memories from people who visited the Finns, then I would consider myself LUCKY if they were all handy ones! Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more.

[Majsju]

All memories come from people who have visited the finns. As to why there are so many from generals, soldiers, adventurers etc, it takes a certain kind of person to enter the Tower of Ghenjei.

[username13]

All memories come from people who have visited the finns. As to why there are so many from generals, soldiers, adventurers etc, it takes a certain kind of person to enter the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

It would be kinda funny if Mat came out of it with the memories of milk maids, clerks and stuff.

[buckeyebull64]

Actually, the doorway for the snakes was in Mayene for most of the third age. As for whos memories he got, I think he got general's memories because of who he was. Remember, the snakes refered to him as "Son of Battles" BEFORE the foxes gave him his memories. They likely threw in some extras, but i think there was a selection going on, either by the fox-finn or the pattern.

[Colonel_Sanders]

Isn't there a passage where Mat states he remembers dieing previously, how could the finns have gotten those memories from dead people?

[WhiteJoker]

1) I have heard it discussed that while most of Mat's memories come from the Finns, that he is still the reincarnation of the guy who was captain of the guard during the fall of Mantharen, because of things he says or does or remembers before the Finns. If so, he may still be some guy who typically ends up in leadership or general type roles in the pattern, and now is just complemented with other memories. His instincts, after all, seem solid. He doesn't just have knowledge, he is quite capable of applying it, and does so intuitively. What do you think about that; you seem to remember the earlier books better than I?

Mat's pure Two Rivers stock and as has been repeatedly mentioned, the old blood runs thick in the Two Rivers, more strongly in Mat then many others because, as you have noted, prior to gaining the memories from the Finn Mat's been known to utter entire sentences in the Old Tongue when in duress. However, the mechanics of the Old Blood is.... vague at best, and downright unhelpful at worst.

 

That said, Mat's ta'avaran long before he got those memories and ta'avaran are always people who change the world to some degree or another (not only through alteration of probability, chance, and reality, but also through great feats) so yeah, it stands to reason that the basic cloth which Mat is cut from is exceptional. The memories just make him more capable of pulling his natural talents out.

 

Isn't there a passage where Mat states he remembers dieing previously, how could the finns have gotten those memories from dead people?

The Finn don't adhere to logic and conventions as we know it. Also, if Mat's theory that the Finn are constantly watching through his eyes and hearing through his ears then it's also likely that they're "recording" all of those memories up until the person dies.

[Whatsie]

Actually, the doorway for the snakes was in Mayene for most of the third age. As for whos memories he got, I think he got general's memories because of who he was. Remember, the snakes refered to him as "Son of Battles" BEFORE the foxes gave him his memories. They likely threw in some extras, but i think there was a selection going on, either by the fox-finn or the pattern.

[That said, consider where the door that led to the Alfinn was; hidden away in a storeroom of the Stone of Tear. It stands to reason that for however long Stone's had the door only nobles have gone through it and we don't know the circumstances of that door before it fell into Tear's hands however I'd wager that it was fairly tightly controlled which implies that only people of prominence would have had access to it in the first place.

Not quite true. Mayene didn't exist until well after Artur Hawkwing. I would guess that they've been around, at most, about 800 years. They gave Tear the doorframe under 300 years ago, and that's irrelevant to Mat's case anyway... see below. This is courtesy of SevenSpokes.net's chronology:

The Breaking Happens.

~1,000 years After the Breaking (AB), the Trolloc Wars start

~350 years after that, they end. (PS Holy crap. Trolloc Wars last longer than the US has been a country. Think about that.)

~950 years after that, Hawkwing dies, starting the War of the Hundred Years.

It gradually ends somewhere around a century later.

We are now ~2,485 years Post-Breaking, and we enter the time referred to as the New Era (NE) (I know I skipped the Free Years system. Deal.)

 

~700 NE (~3,185 AB), Mayene gives the doorframe to Tear.

In 978 NE, Mat is born.... somewhere around 3,463 years after the breaking of the world.

 

In response to something else I read here (but it's 2 AM and I can't remember what) Mat's memories are from the period between the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing, I think. So in my opinion, they could all be from his ancestors. That's over a thousand years of history, starting over two thousand years ago. Plenty of time for all those bloodlines to meet up and get passed down.. It makes the "Son of Battles" title more appropriate too. As for why he's got 'em.... Racial Memory? The wolves remember everything other wolves know. Why can't it be true on some level for humans (or at least ta'veren?) He asked for memories. If racial memory exists, what's easier than just grabbing his ancestors' memories and throwing 'em in his head?

[dovien]

Isn't there a passage where Mat states he remembers dieing previously, how could the finns have gotten those memories from dead people?

Ah, so you think time flows that way.

[dscott8]

IMHO, Mat is a direct descendant of Manetheren's greatest general, and he comes by some memories that way. He got more when he visited the Finns -- remember, Finns feed on emotions, and they must have a huge collection by now. I suspect that many great generals over the years have visited the Finns to get answers on strategy, and the Finns harvested all their battle memories. When Mat showed up and asked for the holes in his memory to be filled, they just matched memories from their collection to Mat's own predisposition for battle.

[Majsju]

Hopefully this might clear up some of the confusion in this thread,

 

Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?

RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

 

Week 12 Question: You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'Finns have obtained these memories?

Robert Jordan Answers: A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.

[Colonel_Sanders]

Isn't there a passage where Mat states he remembers dieing previously, how could the finns have gotten those memories from dead people?

Ah, so you think time flows that way.

 

Yes, unless you are implying a total lack of freewill?

[EvilSocrates]

Thanks for the definitive answer Majsju. That's what I feared, alas. I think it would be cooler the other way around. Then again, it is fiction, so perhaps I shall just choose to alter that detail in my own mind to make the books better! After all, any good literary critic would tell you what the author thinks doesn't matter ^^.

[dovien]

Ah, so you think time flows that way.

Yes, unless you are implying a total lack of freewill?

No, unless you are implying the 'past' is fixed?

 

But seriously, the point i'm making here is that the lands of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn have significantly different uiniversal constants than we're used to and don't necessarily have to abide by the same rules. While it may be that causation works differently for them, I'm not offering a solution to the problems that could create for people of our perspective.

[EvilSocrates]

Sorry to dredge up an old topic, but I was re-reading the Dragon Reborn, and I came up with some additional evidence that Mat is the descendant (reincarnation?) of a general of Manetheren: the scene where he is healed by the tower and gets rid of the dagger. He seems to clearly remember on some level fighting in a particular battle and commanding troops of Manetheren. Did that general end up going to the Finns too later? Possible, I guess, but it seems more likely Mat is operating with some remnant of the past that was enhanced by the Finns adding the "other men's lives" stuff in his noggin. I think his ability to battle is like his ability to speak the old tongue. It is in his "Old Blood" (the blood of a Mantheren general), but increased by access to other relevant memories.

 

It's not just the healing, by the way, but the way he is written in TDR in general. For example, the way he answers "Manetheren" at first when Hammar asks him where he is from strikes me as him slipping between two identities, one new, one old. Just a thought.

[moratcorlm]

That's widely assumed to be Aemon, the last king of Manetheren, and the specific memories seem to point to reincarnation rather than just descent. The dagger and healing probably partially tore the barrier separating the memories of a past life from this one, like the taint did to Rand.