AS damane and First Oath Question

[Jagen Sedai]

This is something j have been wondering about for a while--Could a captured Aes Sedai, as a damane, lie as their new damane persona? I was first thinking of this back when Joline and Edesina and Teslyn were discussing Sheraine/Mylen.

 

Now I understand that Mylen--and Pura for that matter--cannot apply to this question, because they think of themselves only as their new identity.

 

However, can an AS who refuses to submit as a damane lie by using her damane name?

 

For example, say Romanda (Yellow Sitter) were to get caught as a damane, and let's say this is after she knows how to cure stilling. Seanchan could possibly want that info in case some of their damane have gotten burned out. So, Romanda under who new sul'dam gets the name Roma, and Roma needs to show/tell her sul'dam any and all useful weaves that she has. If Romanda wanted to keep this one weave secret, could she simply not say after a while, "Roma doesn't know anything else"?

Two things:

1. If Romanda sees herself as such, as an AS, and not as Roma, then she is not Roma--who, by the way, must speak in a third-person viewpoint (big oath loophole?!)

2. Roma is a damane (but still not Romanda!) and damane don't know how to cure stilling, OR Rona simply is a delusion of the sul'dam and doesn't really exist, except that Romanda will play with the sul'dam's mind by pretending to be Roma, while she very well knows she is not.

 

Thoughts? Is my theory too far fetched?

[Evoke]

No, it's been shown that captured Aes Sedai are useless in combat since they are unable to break their Oaths. She would have to use word play in order to get around giving the Seanchan the stilling healing weave.

 

Besides, it'd be fairly useless to them. They only have female channelers and as we know a woman Healed by a woman won't regain all of her strength, she'll in fact be quite weak.

[Magnetic Zero]

If, in your example, Romanda thought of it the way you did, then yes, she would be capable of "lying." You already seem to understand that the truth the Aes Sedai are bound to is the truth as they see it. If Romanda could convince herself that Roma is a separate persona and doesn't know anything, then yes, she would not be lying by saying she doesn't know.

 

However, keep in mind that this would require Romanda to separate the persona of Roma from the persona of Romanda. It would essentially require a split personality. Since a name is not inherently an identity, when someone refers to Romanda as Roma, it is generally understood by all parties that Roma refers to the person who self-identifies as Romanda. The only way your trick would work is if Romanda could disassociate her identity as Romanda from her identity as Roma.

 

Which is probably outside of normal human ability. So while technically what you say is possible, it's also quite improbable.

 

To respond to Evoke:

 

No, it's been shown that captured Aes Sedai are useless in combat since they are unable to break their Oaths.

 

The Third Oath would also be easy to break if the sul'dam handlers simply knew how the Oath worked. All you would need to do is convince the Aes Sedai damane that their life is in immediate danger from anything the sul'dam wants destroyed. Which, I think, is a hell of a lot more reasonable than what is required to break the First Oath.

[Taura-Tierno]

No, it's been shown that captured Aes Sedai are useless in combat since they are unable to break their Oaths.

 

The Third Oath would also be easy to break if the sul'dam handlers simply knew how the Oath worked. All you would need to do is convince the Aes Sedai damane that their life is in immediate danger from anything the sul'dam wants destroyed. Which, I think, is a hell of a lot more reasonable than what is required to break the First Oath.

 

One way could be to say "If you don't use the Power as weapon right now, I'll kill you", or just threaten to kill another Aes Sedai damane. After the first damane is executed, all other former AS damane would know that they have to use the One Power as a weapon, or die. That should work, shouldn't it? If the Seanchan are willing to execute a couple of damane.

[Evoke]

No, it's been shown that captured Aes Sedai are useless in combat since they are unable to break their Oaths.

 

The Third Oath would also be easy to break if the sul'dam handlers simply knew how the Oath worked. All you would need to do is convince the Aes Sedai damane that their life is in immediate danger from anything the sul'dam wants destroyed. Which, I think, is a hell of a lot more reasonable than what is required to break the First Oath.

 

One way could be to say "If you don't use the Power as weapon right now, I'll kill you", or just threaten to kill another Aes Sedai damane. After the first damane is executed, all other former AS damane would know that they have to use the One Power as a weapon, or die. That should work, shouldn't it? If the Seanchan are willing to execute a couple of damane.

 

I believe they have to use the weapon against the actual threat.

[Magnetic Zero]

I believe they have to use the weapon against the actual threat.

 

Yep. Which is why I said that they would have to be convinced (through brainwashing) that everyone a sul'dam even says is a threat is actually a threat.

[Taura-Tierno]

But that's not what the oath says, is it?

 

"Under the Light, I vow not to use the One Power as a weapon, except against Shadowspawn, or in the last defence of my life, the life of my Warder, or that of another Sister."

 

It doesn't say it's got to be against the threat. While that may be implicit, knowing that the only way you could possibly survive, or that another Aes Sedai could possibly survive, is to kill another, wouldn't that enable you to use the Power as a weapon?

 

Although I agree that brainwashing them probably won't be that difficult. The sul'dam seem terrible efficient at it.

[Exy]

"Under the Light, I vow not to use the One Power as a weapon, except against Shadowspawn, or in the last defence of my life, the life of my Warder, or that of another Sister."

 

It doesn't say it's got to be against the threat. While that may be implicit, knowing that the only way you could possibly survive, or that another Aes Sedai could possibly survive, is to kill another, wouldn't that enable you to use the Power as a weapon?

 

Although I agree that brainwashing them probably won't be that difficult. The sul'dam seem terrible efficient at it.

It's an intriguing thought, but I would argue that using the power as a weapon at another person's behest, even if they're threatening death, is not "self-defense". I don't think you can kill the guy who's not holding the gun on you and claim self-defense because someone else told you to. I don't think that would work.

 

At any rate, we've seen that the sul'dam can't use Aes Sedai damane in battle, which suggests that all their oaths still hold. Which makes sense, since there's no reason to think that any amount of training can overcome the Oath Rod. They're stuck with them, unless the Seanchan manage to get a hold of a binder and free them.

[Jagen Sedai]

Mmm one thing I am wondering again; how is it that Aes Sedai can practice battle weaves without going against their oaths? Or do you think the bulk of that training is as an Accepted, and then they can only use certain "weapon weaves" when in danger?

 

Or, the weaves don't count as being used as a weapon unless it's against a living thing?

[Exy]

Mmm one thing I am wondering again; how is it that Aes Sedai can practice battle weaves without going against their oaths? Or do you think the bulk of that training is as an Accepted, and then they can only use certain "weapon weaves" when in danger?

 

Or, the weaves don't count as being used as a weapon unless it's against a living thing?

There's no oath against using the One Power as a weapon -- just against using it as a weapon against people. Practicing the weaves wouldn't violate the oath at all, and obviously one would want the sisters trained up when shadowspawn approach.

[Taura-Tierno]

Mmm one thing I am wondering again; how is it that Aes Sedai can practice battle weaves without going against their oaths? Or do you think the bulk of that training is as an Accepted, and then they can only use certain "weapon weaves" when in danger?

 

Or, the weaves don't count as being used as a weapon unless it's against a living thing?

There's no oath against using the One Power as a weapon -- just against using it as a weapon against people. Practicing the weaves wouldn't violate the oath at all, and obviously one would want the sisters trained up when shadowspawn approach.

 

Actually, the oath says "as a weapon" in general, and only adds a few exception. But I do think that most would interpret it as meaning against people. Making a lightning flash in the skies isn't a weapon; using it against someone is. Throwing a fireball at a stone wall probably wouldn't be classed as a weapon, but using it to hurt someone is.

 

But I do believe it's possible for someone to interpret it in a way that makes it impossible to even practice violent weaves. A tuatha'an, for instance.

[Magnetic Zero]

 

It's an intriguing thought, but I would argue that using the power as a weapon at another person's behest, even if they're threatening death, is not "self-defense". I don't think you can kill the guy who's not holding the gun on you and claim self-defense because someone else told you to. I don't think that would work.

 

Which is where the brainwashing comes in. The sul'dam need only brainwash the damane into considering anyone who the sul'dam orders dead as an immediate threat.

 

 

At any rate, we've seen that the sul'dam can't use Aes Sedai damane in battle, which suggests that all their oaths still hold. Which makes sense, since there's no reason to think that any amount of training can overcome the Oath Rod. They're stuck with them, unless the Seanchan manage to get a hold of a binder and free them.

 

I don't believe anyone has suggested the sul'dam can ever get rid of the Oaths on the Aes Sedai they capture. We've merely been discussing methods those Oaths may be circumvented.

[Jmw1999]

The AS damane would not be able to break the oaths. However, as stated earlier in the thread, an AS can use the OP in last defense of their lives, if the AS is told that they will be killed if they do not comply then there is something to work with. It ALL depends on the AS. She has to believe in her decision that what it is she is doing is in defense of her life. The focus of said 'attack' is not required to be the the threat. The oath never states that. AS twistery yes but do-able. But very difficult to get the AS to comply i think.

[Exy]

Actually, the oath says "as a weapon" in general, and only adds a few exception. But I do think that most would interpret it as meaning against people. Making a lightning flash in the skies isn't a weapon; using it against someone is. Throwing a fireball at a stone wall probably wouldn't be classed as a weapon, but using it to hurt someone is.

Yes, you're right, I was confusing the language of the second and third oaths. But yeah, I think it doesn't change anything substantially, as your examples show. It's not a weapon if it's not being used against something. Presumably it wouldn't stop an Aes Sedai from using the power to hunt or slaughter an animal, either, or at least I would not construe a tool used for hunting as a weapon.

 

At any rate, I would still maintain that it's not defense if I use a weapon against Fred because Joe held a gun on me and told me he'd kill me otherwise. Whether a sul'dam could eventually manage to break down an Aes Sedai's mind enough that she truly believes any threat to the Empire is a threat to her own life I don't know, but that seems like it'd be pretty difficult.

[Taura-Tierno]

Actually, the oath says "as a weapon" in general, and only adds a few exception. But I do think that most would interpret it as meaning against people. Making a lightning flash in the skies isn't a weapon; using it against someone is. Throwing a fireball at a stone wall probably wouldn't be classed as a weapon, but using it to hurt someone is.

Yes, you're right, I was confusing the language of the second and third oaths. But yeah, I think it doesn't change anything substantially, as your examples show. It's not a weapon if it's not being used against something. Presumably it wouldn't stop an Aes Sedai from using the power to hunt or slaughter an animal, either, or at least I would not construe a tool used for hunting as a weapon.

 

At any rate, I would still maintain that it's not defense if I use a weapon against Fred because Joe held a gun on me and told me he'd kill me otherwise. Whether a sul'dam could eventually manage to break down an Aes Sedai's mind enough that she truly believes any threat to the Empire is a threat to her own life I don't know, but that seems like it'd be pretty difficult.

 

I still think it might work, depending on what the Aes Sedai damane in questions feels, and how she interprets the oaths. I'd wager that some Aes Sedai could use the One Power in that situation, because they see it as a last defence of their lives, whereas other believe as you do: that it does not qualify as self defense.