Asmodean

[didymos]

IMO its like the previous poster said, the DO just doesnt want to bring him back as he was the weakest, least reliable, and least useful of the whole lot.

Given there is no support for him being weakest, least reliable or least useful of the whole lot, I'd say that's quite a leap.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

 

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

 

FYI, lots of new info on asmodean in my report on the paris signing here, including info about this quote in particular:

http://theoryland.co...9071#post129071

"He also said that RJ's answer to WSB "The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors." might be interpreted as both factors (each alone) would have prevented the DO from bringing asmo back (and not just one or just the other) OR both factors (each alone) were not sufficient to prevent the DO from bringing asmo back and the combination of both was required. It seemed to me like his vision of it was more the first answer than the second (both factors each alone would have prevented it)." Glad to hear this - I had mentioned the possibility, nice to have some confirmation.

 

I don't know how that makes any sense. RJ's answer specifically says it was a "combination of two factors" and "not one or the other". I don't know how much more definitive he could have been about both being required.

[FarShainMael]

Can't say I liked the reveal in the prologue.

What now? What did I miss?

Everyone is still getting ahead of themselves. All we know is that it was said that she was RESPONSIBLE for the deaths of the Chosen, not that she had killed them! Rand killed Aran'gar, and Eggy got Mesaana. We don't know HOW or WHERE which is most pertinant, or the true Whodunnit yet! Sheesh, People, you got another piece to the puzzle, a little more to go off of but not the outright statement of who did it, just who is responsible for it. For all we know, he stepped into that room and a gateway neatly bisected him. We're being toyed with here, all in the Graendal camp are fired up rubbing it in people's noses, and next book we'll have a turn about with the full reveal. Someone needs to ask Brandon straight up if she killed him or is just responsible for his death. The truth is, it can't be so simple an ending as that, we must be toyed with, we must go through the next stage of agony and suffering and RAFO's.

 

100% agreed with this. Perhaps we had better track back over Graendal's movements at that time to work out exactly how she was 'responsible'.

[grolm]

The Shelock Holmes explanation does a good job giving reasons Graendal could have been in Camylin if the timing assumed there is right.

 

We don't really have a solid way to know how much time has passed since Rahvin bought it.

 

Granny could well have been in town for a scheduled visit, and not been able to travel into the palace directly to Rahvin's quarters because of the defenses he laid down to warn him if Rand came to town. Later after Sammy boy buys it in a later book we learn that Granny went snooping through his belongings looking for items of use to her, so she might also have already learned that Rand had defeated Rahvin - it's not illogical for her to have had spies in place to keep an eye on things - and been there to snoop through his belongings too.

 

I do think it likely she simply took advantage of the opportunity to do a little housekeeping when she stumbled across Asmodean.

[FarShainMael]

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

 

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

 

FYI, lots of new info on asmodean in my report on the paris signing here, including info about this quote in particular:

http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=129071#post129071

 

Very cool. The 'Sherlock Holmes' style thing is probably the deductive breakdown in the FAQ. I still favour the pattern warping explanation, but Caemlyn as a 'where' could be tied to the current shadowspawn invasion.

 

-- dwn

 

(Edit: The 'Sherlock Holmes' version is apparently different than the one I was familiar with. The Signing thread has details.)

 

Possibly it's this:

 

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4975913/1/Sherlock_Holmes_Examines_the_Death_of_Asmodean

[billegoat]

so according to RJ, asmo could not be revived because of how and where he died. i think it's generally accepted that he died to a small weave of balefire by graendal, who ran into him while searching for rahvin's TA stash. but how does the WHERE apply?

[dwn]

so according to RJ, asmo could not be revived because of how and where he died. i think it's generally accepted that he died to a small weave of balefire by graendal, who ran into him while searching for rahvin's TA stash. but how does the WHERE apply?

 

There are a handful of possibilities suggested earlier in this thread.

 

-- dwn

[FarShainMael]

In another thread I posted this, in response to demiandre:

 

In the Glossary, Graendal is said to be 'responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean and for the destruction of Mesaana'. We know that G did not kill Aran'gar, it was Rand's balefire that killed her; however, G was responsible for her death because she left her unable to escape. Similarly, G did not destroy Mesaana, it was Egwene who did that ..

 

So it seems that we are now left with the question - did Graendal kill Asmo with her own hands; or did she put him in someone else's way?

 

Specifically, did she trap him somewhere, because that's what she did to the other two?

[Sharaman]

In another thread I posted this, in response to demiandre:

 

In the Glossary, Graendal is said to be 'responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean and for the destruction of Mesaana'. We know that G did not kill Aran'gar, it was Rand's balefire that killed her; however, G was responsible for her death because she left her unable to escape. Similarly, G did not destroy Mesaana, it was Egwene who did that ..

 

So it seems that we are now left with the question - did Graendal kill Asmo with her own hands; or did she put him in someone else's way?

 

Specifically, did she trap him somewhere, because that's what she did to the other two?

It all happened very quickly.

[FarShainMael]

Traps often do.. but who would a trap actually have been set for, given that Asmo was 'roadkill'? Rand, presumably?

 

And what was that trap?

[Jblaylock]

Okay I'm confused. I've read a few chapters, but I don't remember reading anything about Graendal killing Asmo, but someoone up there said it was revealed in the Prologue. What did I miss?

[FarShainMael]

It's not in the Prologue AFAICS; all that revealed was that Graendal had escaped Rand's nuking of Natrin's Barrow. There's a reference in one of the later chapters about deaths of three Chosen (can't find it right now). And there's that reference in the Glossary. But nowhere in the book does it say that Graendal killed Asmo, only that she was 'responsible for' his death.

[capuga]

Okay I'm confused. I've read a few chapters, but I don't remember reading anything about Graendal killing Asmo, but someoone up there said it was revealed in the Prologue. What did I miss?

 

It's in an early chapter (5 maybe?) and occurs during a conversation between Moridin and Graendal. There is further evidence of this late in the book during a conversation between Graendal and Shaidar Haran.

[moratcorlm]

"Aran'gar is dead, lost to us—and after the Great Lord transmigrated her soul the last time. One might think you are making a habit of this sort of thing, Graendal."

"I live to serve, Nae'blis," she said. Confidence! She had to seem confident.

He hesitated just briefly. Good. "Surely you do not imply that Aran'gar had turned traitor."

"Mesaana has fallen," Shaidar Haran whispered. "Three Chosen, destroyed by your actions. The design builds, a lattice of failure, a framework of incompetence."

[Jblaylock]

"Aran'gar is dead, lost to us—and after the Great Lord transmigrated her soul the last time. One might think you are making a habit of this sort of thing, Graendal."

"I live to serve, Nae'blis," she said. Confidence! She had to seem confident.

He hesitated just briefly. Good. "Surely you do not imply that Aran'gar had turned traitor."

"Mesaana has fallen," Shaidar Haran whispered. "Three Chosen, destroyed by your actions. The design builds, a lattice of failure, a framework of incompetence."

 

 

Ok. Still, might not be Asmo he's talking about. Remember, Sammael died fighting Rand, but the question remains: would he have done the things that led to him fight Rand and die if Graendal had not played mind games with him and manipulated him into doing so? Even if that's not right, and her actions played no part, that was still her goal. She tried to get Sammael to attack Rand so that Rand would kill him, or he would kill Rand, and either way there'd be one less person in her way. Maybe Shaidong Haran was counting that as her actions causing Sammael's death. So in that case it'd be Sammael, Aran'gar, and I now know, Mesaana. Not Asmo. Or maybe I'm wrong.

[Mulk]

it's stated right out in the glossary, is it not? Ergo, this isn't really up for discussion, any more than the Taimandred theory, which RJ debunked flatly. /shrug

 

Not saying you can't argue she had a hand in Sammael's death, but that's not what is referred to.

[moratcorlm]

It would be somewhat odd if Moridin punished her of orchestrating Sammael's death when he took a direct role himself in helping Rand defeat Sammael. And while Graendal also played a role in the death of Rahvin, the "turned traitor" thing pretty much confirms who he's taking about. And, as QuietAiel says, the glossary outright confirms it.

[Oneida]

I remember reading a quote of Brandons where he implied that the DO couldn't get his hands on Verins soul or something. As if her soul walked in the light or whatever.

 

Could it be that Asmodean had begun to earnestly try reform that the DO couldn't bring him back? No mans can be so lost in the shadow that he couldn't return to the light or how ever that saying goes.

[Oneida]

Oh wait nm posted that before I read the how/where thing