The Luckers Official Review.

[waffle]

Could you open a gateway inside someone? pretty sure that's how Deathgates work, but wondering about normal ones?

 

talking about the gholam here? To open it inside him you´d have to direct the weaves inside of him and you can´t to that.

 

you could open one just behind him and then throw a cupboard at him to knock him through though.

 

if i remember correctly, deatgates are just normal gates that move. And open and close at intervals or something. They kill shadowspawn because shadowspawn that go through a gateway die.

[Mr Ares]

How is the logic faulty? Min is infallible, so we are told. Elayne cannot die. The risks of anything happening were minor even without the Viewing, with it she had a cast iron guaranteee that she'd be fine. What risks did she take?

A mental vegetable is entirely capable of giving birth, as are many women with disabilities that would render her incapable of ruling Andor as Queen. That she cannot die is entirely irrelevant - her behavior has displayed incredible ignorance in supposing that the inability to die is the same as invulnerability.

And was she put at serious risk of being brain damaged by appearing as an ally to an unarmed and shielded woman? Not much more so than she would be by walking down the street. So, what risks did she take?

[waffle]

How is the logic faulty? Min is infallible, so we are told. Elayne cannot die.

 

We are told a lot of things. Stilling being impossible to heal for example. People are wrong. Elayne´s blind faith in such a matter is... i just don´t understand.

[Eht Slat Meit]

How is the logic faulty? Min is infallible, so we are told. Elayne cannot die. The risks of anything happening were minor even without the Viewing, with it she had a cast iron guaranteee that she'd be fine. What risks did she take?

A mental vegetable is entirely capable of giving birth, as are many women with disabilities that would render her incapable of ruling Andor as Queen. That she cannot die is entirely irrelevant - her behavior has displayed incredible ignorance in supposing that the inability to die is the same as invulnerability.

And was she put at serious risk of being brain damaged by appearing as an ally to an unarmed and shielded woman? Not much more so than she would be by walking down the street. So, what risks did she take?

 

Posing as a Darkfriend under the assumption that the person poses no threat or no risks isn't inherently risky? I've said it before... for all intents and purposes Elayne is a normal woman who can channel. Treating her as such, there's all manner of harm that can be inflicted on her. Acting as if the woman poses no threat when you have no idea of the extent of the damage she can do or what allies she has is the height of arrogance. For all Elayne knew, she could have been walking into the middle of the woman's execution by her "allies" and gotten herself non-fatally squashed in the process.

[Mr Ares]

How is the logic faulty? Min is infallible, so we are told. Elayne cannot die.

We are told a lot of things. Stilling being impossible to heal for example. People are wrong. Elayne´s blind faith in such a matter is... i just don´t understand.

Min's Viewings always come true. The evidence supports that this Viewing will come true as well.

 

How is the logic faulty? Min is infallible, so we are told. Elayne cannot die. The risks of anything happening were minor even without the Viewing, with it she had a cast iron guaranteee that she'd be fine. What risks did she take?

A mental vegetable is entirely capable of giving birth, as are many women with disabilities that would render her incapable of ruling Andor as Queen. That she cannot die is entirely irrelevant - her behavior has displayed incredible ignorance in supposing that the inability to die is the same as invulnerability.

And was she put at serious risk of being brain damaged by appearing as an ally to an unarmed and shielded woman? Not much more so than she would be by walking down the street. So, what risks did she take?

Posing as a Darkfriend under the assumption that the person poses no threat or no risks isn't inherently risky? I've said it before... for all intents and purposes Elayne is a normal woman who can channel. Treating her as such, there's all manner of harm that can be inflicted on her. Acting as if the woman poses no threat when you have no idea of the extent of the damage she can do or what allies she has is the height of arrogance. For all Elayne knew, she could have been walking into the middle of the woman's execution by her "allies" and gotten herself non-fatally squashed in the process.

What risk is run by posing as a Darkfriend to interogate a prisoner in your own dungeons? I would think it somewhat risky if she had tried on a BA who wasn't a prisoner, for example if that had been her plan to captrue them in KoD. As it is, we are talking about a shielded prisoner, without weapons or back up. What damage can she do? Even if Elayne loses her grip on the Source, and it devolves into a one on one fist fight? A fist fight which is unlikely to go on for any great length of time because Elayne's guards are outside? As for walking in during an execution, that is spectacularly unlikely, and (as has been addressed many times) not worth taking precautions against due to how spectacularly unlikely it is. Seriously, what was the risk?

[AutomatedTeller]

I don't really understand why this is so controversial, so I have to assume this is a battle between Elayne supporters and Elayne haters.

 

The only one in the book who didn't think she was foolish before the fact was Elayne, and after the fact, even she agreed.

 

I still like Elayne and I think she's an effective leader. You can be flawed and still lead - in fact, that seems to be one of the themes of this book. Everyone makes mistakes in this book (except perhaps Rand, and Rand is making up for the mistakes of at least the last book) - the difference between the Light and the Dark is that those of the Light say "hey, let's move forward" while those of the Dark say "time to punish you"

[Fel]

What risk is run by posing as a Darkfriend to interogate a prisoner in your own dungeons? I would think it somewhat risky if she had tried on a BA who wasn't a prisoner, for example if that had been her plan to captrue them in KoD. As it is, we are talking about a shielded prisoner, without weapons or back up. What damage can she do? Even if Elayne loses her grip on the Source, and it devolves into a one on one fist fight? A fist fight which is unlikely to go on for any great length of time because Elayne's guards are outside? As for walking in during an execution, that is spectacularly unlikely, and (as has been addressed many times) not worth taking precautions against due to how spectacularly unlikely it is. Seriously, what was the risk?

People have answered this many times and been ignored, but i'll try again. There are a million things that can go wrong in that situation, ranging from losing the source, tripping and falling, going into labor early, having the darkfriend throw a rock at you that you didn't see, having a mydraal in there too (since they can move in the shadows of a black dungeon), having one of your "guards" feel channeling and come in attacking you with the power because they did not know you were there.....and the list can go on and on...there are many things that can go wrong.

 

In the normal course of events, these things would be miniscule risks (if she fell down in the throne room, no problem, just get back up). But, in a dungeon without any scouting of what was in there already (and you have to admit there could be any number of people in there with travelling and mydraal shadow jumping) with an enemy and with no backup, these risks are magnified. A simple thing like banging your head on the ceiling in the dark could result fairly easily in being knocked unconscious.

 

Are any of these things likely to happen (i.e. > 50% chance)? Of course not. Are they reasonable enough in aggregate that taking small, minimal precautions (as described above) would be warranted? Of course. The fact that she did not take these minimal precautions to handle the unexpected reeks of an impulsive child looking to avoid oversight from her big sister, not a queen leading her people to the last battle.

[Mr Ares]

I don't really understand why this is so controversial,

It's because no-one can come up with a good explanation for how she took a stupid risk here, yet people keep claiming she did.

 

The only one in the book who didn't think she was foolish before the fact was Elayne, and after the fact, even she agreed.

Everyone before was in the needlessly overprotective camp. Afterwards she had just been stabbed, something which could not have been anticipated, but usually something that gives you pause for thought. If anything, her actions in KoD ran a far higher risk, but she defends them. There is no compelling argument that I have yet seen for why her actions in this matter should be considered foolish.

 

What risk is run by posing as a Darkfriend to interogate a prisoner in your own dungeons? I would think it somewhat risky if she had tried on a BA who wasn't a prisoner, for example if that had been her plan to captrue them in KoD. As it is, we are talking about a shielded prisoner, without weapons or back up. What damage can she do? Even if Elayne loses her grip on the Source, and it devolves into a one on one fist fight? A fist fight which is unlikely to go on for any great length of time because Elayne's guards are outside? As for walking in during an execution, that is spectacularly unlikely, and (as has been addressed many times) not worth taking precautions against due to how spectacularly unlikely it is. Seriously, what was the risk?

People have answered this many times and been ignored, but i'll try again.

They have not been ignored. Their points have been addressed, and found lacking. There is a difference.

There are a million things that can go wrong in that situation, ranging from losing the source, tripping and falling, going into labor early, having the darkfriend throw a rock at you that you didn't see, having a mydraal in there too (since they can move in the shadows of a black dungeon), having one of your "guards" feel channeling and come in attacking you with the power because they did not know you were there.....and the list can go on and on...there are many things that can go wrong.

Losing the Source is not a serious risk - she has trouble grasping it, no-one has denied that she has trouble keeping it once grasped. She can trip and fall anywhere, and even if she did, what could happen? Going into labour early (or miscarriage, as it is usually called) is not a risk as the babies will be born healthy. A thrown rock might hurt, but leaving aside the question of where the rock is from, and why it is being thrown at one of the Chosen, what damage is it likely to cause? Anyone, Fade or otherwise, being in there at the same time is spectacularly unlikely - we have an extended priod of captivity, and Elayne is in there for a brief span of time. The guards are surely more likely to see who is there than to attack directly, they cannot kill Elayne (Viewing), and if she drops the disguise the will see who it is - any injury sustained can be Healed. There might be any number of other absurd possiblities, but no-one has put forward any serious risk. The dangers suggested are either minor, just as likely there as anywhere, or very, very unlikely. If someone called me a fool for walking down the street on the grounds that I might stub my toe or be hit by a meteorite, I would not take them very seriously.

 

In the normal course of events, these things would be miniscule risks (if she fell down in the throne room, no problem, just get back up). But, in a dungeon without any scouting of what was in there already (and you have to admit there could be any number of people in there with travelling and mydraal shadow jumping)

No, I have addressed this time and again, I do not have to admit to anything so ridiculous.

with an enemy

Who is shielded, alone and in your bloody dungeon.

and with no backup,

She had backup.

these risks are magnified.

No, they are not. I addressed all the things that magnify the so called risk. So, we go back to it being a miniscule risk, which is what i argued all along.

A simple thing like banging your head on the ceiling in the dark could result fairly easily in being knocked unconscious.

No, it couldn't. You would need a hell of a whack.

 

Are any of these things likely to happen (i.e. > 50% chance)? Of course not.

Given that, there is no reason to act against the possibility.

Are they reasonable enough in aggregate that taking small, minimal precautions (as described above) would be warranted? Of course.

No of course about it. They are wholly unreasonable, massively unlikely, or just not any sort of risk. She did not need to take precautions beyond those she did.

[Fel]

I don't really understand why this is so controversial,

It's because no-one can come up with a good explanation for how she took a stupid risk here, yet people keep claiming she did.

 

The only one in the book who didn't think she was foolish before the fact was Elayne, and after the fact, even she agreed.

Everyone before was in the needlessly overprotective camp. Afterwards she had just been stabbed, something which could not have been anticipated, but usually something that gives you pause for thought. If anything, her actions in KoD ran a far higher risk, but she defends them. There is no compelling argument that I have yet seen for why her actions in this matter should be considered foolish.

 

What risk is run by posing as a Darkfriend to interogate a prisoner in your own dungeons? I would think it somewhat risky if she had tried on a BA who wasn't a prisoner, for example if that had been her plan to captrue them in KoD. As it is, we are talking about a shielded prisoner, without weapons or back up. What damage can she do? Even if Elayne loses her grip on the Source, and it devolves into a one on one fist fight? A fist fight which is unlikely to go on for any great length of time because Elayne's guards are outside? As for walking in during an execution, that is spectacularly unlikely, and (as has been addressed many times) not worth taking precautions against due to how spectacularly unlikely it is. Seriously, what was the risk?

People have answered this many times and been ignored, but i'll try again.

They have not been ignored. Their points have been addressed, and found lacking. There is a difference.

There are a million things that can go wrong in that situation, ranging from losing the source, tripping and falling, going into labor early, having the darkfriend throw a rock at you that you didn't see, having a mydraal in there too (since they can move in the shadows of a black dungeon), having one of your "guards" feel channeling and come in attacking you with the power because they did not know you were there.....and the list can go on and on...there are many things that can go wrong.

Losing the Source is not a serious risk - she has trouble grasping it, no-one has denied that she has trouble keeping it once grasped. She can trip and fall anywhere, and even if she did, what could happen? Going into labour early (or miscarriage, as it is usually called) is not a risk as the babies will be born healthy. A thrown rock might hurt, but leaving aside the question of where the rock is from, and why it is being thrown at one of the Chosen, what damage is it likely to cause? Anyone, Fade or otherwise, being in there at the same time is spectacularly unlikely - we have an extended priod of captivity, and Elayne is in there for a brief span of time. The guards are surely more likely to see who is there than to attack directly, they cannot kill Elayne (Viewing), and if she drops the disguise the will see who it is - any injury sustained can be Healed. There might be any number of other absurd possiblities, but no-one has put forward any serious risk. The dangers suggested are either minor, just as likely there as anywhere, or very, very unlikely. If someone called me a fool for walking down the street on the grounds that I might stub my toe or be hit by a meteorite, I would not take them very seriously.

 

In the normal course of events, these things would be miniscule risks (if she fell down in the throne room, no problem, just get back up). But, in a dungeon without any scouting of what was in there already (and you have to admit there could be any number of people in there with travelling and mydraal shadow jumping)

No, I have addressed this time and again, I do not have to admit to anything so ridiculous.

with an enemy

Who is shielded, alone and in your bloody dungeon.

and with no backup,

She had backup.

these risks are magnified.

No, they are not. I addressed all the things that magnify the so called risk. So, we go back to it being a miniscule risk, which is what i argued all along.

A simple thing like banging your head on the ceiling in the dark could result fairly easily in being knocked unconscious.

No, it couldn't. You would need a hell of a whack.

 

Are any of these things likely to happen (i.e. > 50% chance)? Of course not.

Given that, there is no reason to act against the possibility.

Are they reasonable enough in aggregate that taking small, minimal precautions (as described above) would be warranted? Of course.

No of course about it. They are wholly unreasonable, massively unlikely, or just not any sort of risk. She did not need to take precautions beyond those she did.

I was going to go through another long point by point, but its obvious that you consider charging into an unknown situation with no scouting, no backup, no real plan for what to do if *anything* unusual happens, no information being passed to your allies, and basically no forethought is a good idea. I won't try to psycho-analyze the motives, but I think you'll find that most people would find an impetuous act such as this by a leader as reckless.

 

You dismissed all the real risks as too tiny to worry about and they say its not worth worrying about because there are no risks. It's a strange argument.

 

You have to plan for things to go wrong and HOPE they go right. Not the other way around. Let's agree to disagree, i guess.

[dwn]

I was going to go through another long point by point, but its obvious that you consider charging into an unknown situation with no scouting, no backup, no real plan for what to do if *anything* unusual happens, no information being passed to your allies, and basically no forethought is a good idea. I won't try to psycho-analyze the motives, but I think you'll find that most people would find an impetuous act such as this by a leader as reckless.

 

You dismissed all the real risks as too tiny to worry about and they say its not worth worrying about because there are no risks. It's a strange argument.

 

You have to plan for things to go wrong and HOPE they go right. Not the other way around. Let's agree to disagree, i guess.

 

This is just silly. Elayne going into her dungeon to question a secured and shielded prisoner is about as risky as me going into the basement to do laundry. Sure, I might trip going down the steps, so I take a bit of extra care when carrying a basket of clothing. I don't take precautions for discovering a pit viper in the dryer.

 

Elayne had guards and Kin outside the cell, bodyguards waiting on the other side of her gateway, and Mat's anti-channelling medallion--which she should have been wearing, mind you, but she did have it. She didn't anticipate a jailbreak during the five minutes she was going to be in there.

 

The 'risks' people have come up with have been along the lines of: she might fall and hurt herself; she might bump her head; the prisoner might throw a rock at her. Goodness, whatever would she do if she saw a mouse in the cell!

 

After reading all these posts (on every thread this debate has been waged on), the foremost complaint against Elayne seems to be that she doesn't realize she's a character in a fantasy novel, and thus fails to understand that important plot points are likely to develop when she's in the room.

 

-- dwn

[AutomatedTeller]

I think everyone will agree there is some risk, right? I mean, it's not 100% likely that she will come out of it with no harm at all? Even with the knowledge available to her at the start, right? If there was literally 0% chance of the BA or the forsaken opening a gateway into the dungeon to rescue the captives, then her bluff wouldn't work very well, either, right?

 

So, the only thing we are arguing about is what degree of risk is foolish.

 

To me, it's easy - nearly any degree of risk is foolish in this case, for a couple of reasons:

 

1) The implications of losing a monarch (due to kidnapping or other disabling harm) at this point could be disastrous to the Light. Lose Andor, maybe not get a united Cairhien, not to mention driving Rand loonier - it's a lot to risk.

2) She doesn't have to be the one to run the risk - there are other channelers who could step up and pretend to be a Forsaken - the Kin, the Windfinders, another Aes Sedai. She didn't have to do it

On top of that, she didn't reduce risk as much as she could have - her chief bodyguard wasn't even aware she was going to do it.

 

Now, someone implied that if the chance of bad things happened is < 50%,there's no reason to run the risk - if you truly believe that, there is no chance to persuade you differently. I'll say this - if your car had a 49% chance of crashing everytime you drove, you wouldn't get in it. (I may have misstated the posters point, but I think my summation is correct)

 

I don't know what the actual risk is, but it's not all that low. I mean, in a world with gateways, dungeons are pretty easy to penetrate. And it's not like anyone in this world stays captive very long.

[Fel]

This is just silly. Elayne going into her dungeon to question a secured and shielded prisoner is about as risky as me going into the basement to do laundry. Sure, I might trip going down the steps, so I take a bit of extra care when carrying a basket of clothing. I don't take precautions for discovering a pit viper in the dryer.

 

Elayne had guards and Kin outside the cell, bodyguards waiting on the other side of her gateway, and Mat's anti-channelling medallion--which she should have been wearing, mind you, but she did have it. She didn't anticipate a jailbreak during the five minutes she was going to be in there.

 

The 'risks' people have come up with have been along the lines of: she might fall and hurt herself; she might bump her head; the prisoner might throw a rock at her. Goodness, whatever would she do if she saw a mouse in the cell!

 

After reading all these posts (on every thread this debate has been waged on), the foremost complaint against Elayne seems to be that she doesn't realize she's a character in a fantasy novel, and thus fails to understand that important plot points are likely to develop when she's in the room.

 

-- dwn

Her going into the dungeons alone is a lot more dangerous than you doing laundry (unless, of course, you live in a REAL rough neighborhood...) All of the "silly risks" related were overly silly on purpose and just showed that any of those things could have turned deadly for her or someone else there because she was interrogating a prisoner who was an extreme danger if loose. She did not need to expect a jailbreak, but she should have looked before she leaped and prepared a small contingency in case it went wrong.

 

Any small slip could have put her in a very bad position, which is why a few reasonable precautions were in order. The complaint is that she is too reckless, not that she is expected to be some kind of superhero.

[dwn]

This is just silly. Elayne going into her dungeon to question a secured and shielded prisoner is about as risky as me going into the basement to do laundry. Sure, I might trip going down the steps, so I take a bit of extra care when carrying a basket of clothing. I don't take precautions for discovering a pit viper in the dryer.

 

Elayne had guards and Kin outside the cell, bodyguards waiting on the other side of her gateway, and Mat's anti-channelling medallion--which she should have been wearing, mind you, but she did have it. She didn't anticipate a jailbreak during the five minutes she was going to be in there.

 

The 'risks' people have come up with have been along the lines of: she might fall and hurt herself; she might bump her head; the prisoner might throw a rock at her. Goodness, whatever would she do if she saw a mouse in the cell!

 

After reading all these posts (on every thread this debate has been waged on), the foremost complaint against Elayne seems to be that she doesn't realize she's a character in a fantasy novel, and thus fails to understand that important plot points are likely to develop when she's in the room.

 

-- dwn

Her going into the dungeons alone is a lot more dangerous than you doing laundry (unless, of course, you live in a REAL rough neighborhood...) All of the "silly risks" related were overly silly on purpose and just showed that any of those things could have turned deadly for her or someone else there because she was interrogating a prisoner who was an extreme danger if loose. She did not need to expect a jailbreak, but she should have looked before she leaped and prepared a small contingency in case it went wrong.

 

Any small slip could have put her in a very bad position, which is why a few reasonable precautions were in order. The complaint is that she is too reckless, not that she is expected to be some kind of superhero.

 

Right. Precautions like having guards and Kin outside the cell, like having her bodyguards waiting a few paces away, like having a weave-disrupting ter'angreal ready as a fail-safe. Those are perfectly reasonable precautions. She took them.

 

-- dwn

[Fel]

Right. Precautions like having guards and Kin outside the cell, like having her bodyguards waiting a few paces away, like having a weave-disrupting ter'angreal ready as a fail-safe. Those are perfectly reasonable precautions. She took them.

 

-- dwn

No, she didn't.

 

The guards and Kin had no idea she was there and, as such, were useless as a precaution. With her disguising as another channeler, they were more likely to attack her than help her. The ter'angreal seems to have been at most an afterthought and accident that she had it on her, not some precautionary planning. All i was suggesting was maybe a quick note to the guards saying "I'm going in to interrogate them, keep alert" or having a way out in case it went bad (which she did not have).

 

She did not make any precautions before jumping in with both feet. She just jumped quickly before Birgitte found out.

[AutomatedTeller]

Anyway this could be taken to the Elayne thread? I apologize for my role in highjacking this one...

[dwn]

Right. Precautions like having guards and Kin outside the cell, like having her bodyguards waiting a few paces away, like having a weave-disrupting ter'angreal ready as a fail-safe. Those are perfectly reasonable precautions. She took them.

 

-- dwn

No, she didn't.

 

The guards and Kin had no idea she was there and, as such, were useless as a precaution. With her disguising as another channeler, they were more likely to attack her than help her. The ter'angreal seems to have been at most an afterthought and accident that she had it on her, not some precautionary planning. All i was suggesting was maybe a quick note to the guards saying "I'm going in to interrogate them, keep alert" or having a way out in case it went bad (which she did not have).

 

She did not make any precautions before jumping in with both feet. She just jumped quickly before Birgitte found out.

 

She could have dropped her illusion in a heartbeat and they'd know it was her. She took the ter'angreal out of her purse and held onto it (I maintain she should have put it around her neck). I agree that sending a messenger to those guarding the cells would have been proper.

 

-- dwn

[David Selig]

I think the guards in the dungeon were alerted:

ToM, Chapter 24

 

Smiling to herself, Elayne began giving orders. One of the Guards-women ran off to deliver them, though she looked confused at the strange list of commands.

 

Most probably one of those orders was to alert the guards in the dungeon.

 

2) She doesn't have to be the one to run the risk - there are other channelers who could step up and pretend to be a Forsaken - the Kin, the Windfinders, another Aes Sedai. She didn't have to do it

I really don't see any of the Kin or the Windfinders agreeing to this. The Kin are still too timid (except Alise, but she's not strong enough to open a Gateway IIRC) and the Windfinders wouldn't want to do it, it's not part of the Bargain. There were no other Aes Sedai in the palace.

 

I've said that in the other thread about this - I find it really weird that this particular scene led to so many pages of argument about contingency plans for every eventuality and how even a minimal risk is too much, when there are numerous much more risky things done by all main characters in all books. This is epic fantasy, not real life, the level of risk which is considered reasonable is far higher.

 

Somehow visiting a guarded prisoner is a huge deal and too risky, yet I don't see people complaining about stuff like Mat walking alone at night in Caemlyn in Chapter 8, without any of the Red Arms as bodyguards, despite encountering people trying to kill him everywhere he went in the two previous books, som of them even having portraits of him. Or Egwene sending away all guards and leaving his room protected only by wards, even though she knew people are getting killed in the Tower and Mesaana is mad at her and probably wants to kill/capture her. Just two example from ToM off the top of my head, certainly there are many more.

[Mr Ares]

I don't really understand why this is so controversial,

It's because no-one can come up with a good explanation for how she took a stupid risk here, yet people keep claiming she did.

 

The only one in the book who didn't think she was foolish before the fact was Elayne, and after the fact, even she agreed.

Everyone before was in the needlessly overprotective camp. Afterwards she had just been stabbed, something which could not have been anticipated, but usually something that gives you pause for thought. If anything, her actions in KoD ran a far higher risk, but she defends them. There is no compelling argument that I have yet seen for why her actions in this matter should be considered foolish.

 

What risk is run by posing as a Darkfriend to interogate a prisoner in your own dungeons? I would think it somewhat risky if she had tried on a BA who wasn't a prisoner, for example if that had been her plan to captrue them in KoD. As it is, we are talking about a shielded prisoner, without weapons or back up. What damage can she do? Even if Elayne loses her grip on the Source, and it devolves into a one on one fist fight? A fist fight which is unlikely to go on for any great length of time because Elayne's guards are outside? As for walking in during an execution, that is spectacularly unlikely, and (as has been addressed many times) not worth taking precautions against due to how spectacularly unlikely it is. Seriously, what was the risk?

People have answered this many times and been ignored, but i'll try again.

They have not been ignored. Their points have been addressed, and found lacking. There is a difference.

There are a million things that can go wrong in that situation, ranging from losing the source, tripping and falling, going into labor early, having the darkfriend throw a rock at you that you didn't see, having a mydraal in there too (since they can move in the shadows of a black dungeon), having one of your "guards" feel channeling and come in attacking you with the power because they did not know you were there.....and the list can go on and on...there are many things that can go wrong.

Losing the Source is not a serious risk - she has trouble grasping it, no-one has denied that she has trouble keeping it once grasped. She can trip and fall anywhere, and even if she did, what could happen? Going into labour early (or miscarriage, as it is usually called) is not a risk as the babies will be born healthy. A thrown rock might hurt, but leaving aside the question of where the rock is from, and why it is being thrown at one of the Chosen, what damage is it likely to cause? Anyone, Fade or otherwise, being in there at the same time is spectacularly unlikely - we have an extended priod of captivity, and Elayne is in there for a brief span of time. The guards are surely more likely to see who is there than to attack directly, they cannot kill Elayne (Viewing), and if she drops the disguise the will see who it is - any injury sustained can be Healed. There might be any number of other absurd possiblities, but no-one has put forward any serious risk. The dangers suggested are either minor, just as likely there as anywhere, or very, very unlikely. If someone called me a fool for walking down the street on the grounds that I might stub my toe or be hit by a meteorite, I would not take them very seriously.

 

In the normal course of events, these things would be miniscule risks (if she fell down in the throne room, no problem, just get back up). But, in a dungeon without any scouting of what was in there already (and you have to admit there could be any number of people in there with travelling and mydraal shadow jumping)

No, I have addressed this time and again, I do not have to admit to anything so ridiculous.

with an enemy

Who is shielded, alone and in your bloody dungeon.

and with no backup,

She had backup.

these risks are magnified.

No, they are not. I addressed all the things that magnify the so called risk. So, we go back to it being a miniscule risk, which is what i argued all along.

A simple thing like banging your head on the ceiling in the dark could result fairly easily in being knocked unconscious.

No, it couldn't. You would need a hell of a whack.

 

Are any of these things likely to happen (i.e. > 50% chance)? Of course not.

Given that, there is no reason to act against the possibility.

Are they reasonable enough in aggregate that taking small, minimal precautions (as described above) would be warranted? Of course.

No of course about it. They are wholly unreasonable, massively unlikely, or just not any sort of risk. She did not need to take precautions beyond those she did.

I was going to go through another long point by point, but its obvious that you consider charging into an unknown situation with no scouting, no backup, no real plan for what to do if *anything* unusual happens, no information being passed to your allies, and basically no forethought is a good idea. I won't try to psycho-analyze the motives, but I think you'll find that most people would find an impetuous act such as this by a leader as reckless.

I think you'll find that many wouldn't consider this to be as reckless as you're trying to make out. It was a known situation, and she had backup. She had every advantage in this situation, and if anything went wrong (which is very unlikely) she had all the tools to recover the situation. What happened - a jailbreak when she was in there - was something very unlikely, and not worth protecting against on those grounds.

 

You dismissed all the real risks as too tiny to worry about and they say its not worth worrying about because there are no risks. It's a strange argument.

No, it's quite simple: all the risks presented are either very tiny (stubbed toes - why bother taking extra precautions?) or hugely unlikely (killed by a meteor - why bother protecting against something that almost certainly will not happen?). If I'm out driving, I can plan for the possibility of a crash, but I see no reason to plan for the possibility of me getting caught in a bomb blast. There just aren't that many terrorist atrocities where I live.

 

After reading all these posts (on every thread this debate has been waged on), the foremost complaint against Elayne seems to be that she doesn't realize she's a character in a fantasy novel, and thus fails to understand that important plot points are likely to develop when she's in the room.

 

-- dwn

I think we might have got to the root of the problem.

 

 

I think everyone will agree there is some risk, right? I mean, it's not 100% likely that she will come out of it with no harm at all? Even with the knowledge available to her at the start, right? If there was literally 0% chance of the BA or the forsaken opening a gateway into the dungeon to rescue the captives, then her bluff wouldn't work very well, either, right?

Of course there is not a 0% risk. There never is. If I'm walking down the road, I might be stabbed. I might suffer a fatal heart attack. A car might run across my toes (after I stubbed them), or a meteor might fall from the heavens and kill me. So, according to some here, when I go to get a paper I should where a stab proof vest, a hard hat, steel toe-caps and have an ambulance follow me everywhere. To me, this seems somewhat excessive. One is never without risk.

 

1) The implications of losing a monarch (due to kidnapping or other disabling harm) at this point could be disastrous to the Light. Lose Andor, maybe not get a united Cairhien, not to mention driving Rand loonier - it's a lot to risk.

But virtually no chance of it happening.

2) She doesn't have to be the one to run the risk - there are other channelers who could step up and pretend to be a Forsaken - the Kin, the Windfinders, another Aes Sedai.

But could they have done it as well as she did? Did they have the knowledge or experience? Could they pull of the act? Who was better suited to the job than Elayne who would have agreed to do it?

 

Now, someone implied that if the chance of bad things happened is < 50%,there's no reason to run the risk - if you truly believe that, there is no chance to persuade you differently. I'll say this - if your car had a 49% chance of crashing everytime you drove, you wouldn't get in it. (I may have misstated the posters point, but I think my summation is correct)

How much less than 50% are we talking? A 50/50 chance is quite a high risk. But less than 1%? And that is what we are talking about here, the chances of something serious happening being significantly less than 1%.

 

I don't know what the actual risk is, but it's not all that low. I mean, in a world with gateways, dungeons are pretty easy to penetrate. And it's not like anyone in this world stays captive very long.

Dungeons might be easy to penetrate, but let's say that whoever breaks in to visit/order/jailbreak the prisoners is in with them for less than an hour (which seems likely - they were certainly not in the cell for long in the book). Let us also say that Elayne is in there less than an hour, which also seems very reasonable. Let's say that the captivity lasts 20 days. 24 hours a day times 20 is 480 hours. Now, what are the chances that Elayne and an outsider are both in there at the same time? Quite low. So the odds are that Elayne will interrogate with no interruptions from Chosen/Fades/BA/DFs/etc. So where is the risk?

 

I think the guards in the dungeon were alerted:

ToM, Chapter 24

 

Smiling to herself, Elayne began giving orders. One of the Guards-women ran off to deliver them, though she looked confused at the strange list of commands.

Most probably one of those orders was to alert the guards in the dungeon.

And yet another one of the weak arguments on this point crumbles. Thank you.

 

Somehow visiting a guarded prisoner is a huge deal and too risky, yet I don't see people complaining about stuff like Mat walking alone at night in Caemlyn in Chapter 8, without any of the Red Arms as bodyguards, despite encountering people trying to kill him everywhere he went in the two previous books, som of them even having portraits of him. Or Egwene sending away all guards and leaving his room protected only by wards, even though she knew people are getting killed in the Tower and Mesaana is mad at her and probably wants to kill/capture her. Just two example from ToM off the top of my head, certainly there are many more.

What about the ToG - no backup, poor planning (which did cost them the life of one of them, due to Mat's poorly worded bargain), risk of death for a great general and a ta'veren, who is necessary for the worlds survival. I have to agree, Elayne took a far lesser risk than so many other people in this book, but only she is getting called out for it. Given some of the arguments people are making, about Elayne rushing in blind to a situation with no planning or back up, one might almost think they were still reading KoD - her plan there was far riskier.

[Eht Slat Meit]

What risk is run by posing as a Darkfriend to interogate a prisoner in your own dungeons? I would think it somewhat risky if she had tried on a BA who wasn't a prisoner, for example if that had been her plan to captrue them in KoD. As it is, we are talking about a shielded prisoner, without weapons or back up. What damage can she do? Even if Elayne loses her grip on the Source, and it devolves into a one on one fist fight? A fist fight which is unlikely to go on for any great length of time because Elayne's guards are outside? As for walking in during an execution, that is spectacularly unlikely, and (as has been addressed many times) not worth taking precautions against due to how spectacularly unlikely it is. Seriously, what was the risk?

 

I bet the Black Ajah told themselves the same thing when they were holding Elayne and Nynaeve prisoner at the Fortress of Tear. They're shielded and unarmed. Completely harmless. *sneer contemptuously at the silly girls* Honestly, you keep presenting Elayne as invulnerable in addition to her limited immortality, which she is clearly not. This isn't even the much simpler world of TDR... this is a dozen books later in ToM. What risks? The same risks that have always existed for an Aes Sedai. An arrow through the eye (doesn't have to kill), a smashing blow to the back of the head. She has a ta'veren in the city, knows the full warping effect of luck and the damage he can cause simply by being there. Elayne knows that male channelers exist and that she will never see them coming. She knows there are darkfriends who have infiltrated her guards and her city. Yet it's perfectly rational and reasonable to assume that she's completely safe simply because she "can't die" and has a nifty do-hickey that prevents channeling (directly) at her and that she can discard guards without a thought for her own safety?

 

She knows better, and her behavior is reckless and foolhardy, much reminiscent of Mat, except that unlike Mat she knows and understands the full extent of her responsibility. They're much alike.

[Mr Ares]

Right, let's go over this again. Elayne is in her dungeons, with armed guards as back up, with the Source, against a shielded woman with no backup and no weapons. Elayne can't die, and any harm she comes to can be Healed by the channelers are right outside. Elayne is to be in there for a brief time, she is not on permanent guard duty. There is very little chance of anyone else entering during the very brief period she is in there - no one has got around that. An arrow through the eye? From a woman with neither bows nor arrows? Seriously, that's the risk you come up with?She didn't discard her guards. So this is very unlike the situation in TDR - there, the BA were the guards. So the equivalent here would be the Kinswomen holding the shields being at risk if something happened, which is rather more reasonable, but not something anyone has bothered to argue. So I ask again, what risks existed for Elayne in that situation? That were both serious and likely enough for her to need more backup than the armed guards and Kinswomen she had? How was she reckless? I haven't seen a good explanation for any of this.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Except for the occasional grammatical error, I don't think that Mr. Ares is wrong.

[Luckers]

Why is it that a thread on my review--which did not touch on Elayne at all--is about Elayne?

 

Not that I mind or anything. I'm just curious about the evolution.

[waffle]

So I ask again, what risks existed for Elayne in that situation?

 

The other darkfriends and BA breaking out and blindsiding her :)

 

 

 

That stick up your backside must be massive.

[Ashlyn]

Why is it that a thread on my review--which did not touch on Elayne at all--is about Elayne?

 

Not that I mind or anything. I'm just curious about the evolution.

 

The Elayne thread was not big enough to contain the sheer ridiculousness of all the arguments? And before I get lynched as well, it's been entertaining!

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Why is it that a thread on my review--which did not touch on Elayne at all--is about Elayne?

 

Not that I mind or anything. I'm just curious about the evolution.

 

The Elayne thread was not big enough to contain the sheer ridiculousness of all the arguments? And before I get lynched as well, it's been entertaining!

 

I massively AGREE! I howl at laughter at Mr. Ares' style in rebutting other people's comments. Especially about the meteor-strike.