Elayne's Arc

[tneva82]

You can make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes nothing to the Two Rivers, and that she has no claim to the Two Rivers.

 

You can make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes somthing to the Two Rivers, and that she has a claim to the Two Rivers.

 

You cannot make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes nothing to the Two Rivers, and that she has a claim to the Two Rivers.

 

It isn't complicated. There are mutual obligations. Since the Andoran throne has not provide protection and other services to the Two Rivers, it has abrogated its claim to the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

 

Stop being deliberately obtuse.

 

So because Andor didn't send troops to face trollocs when Andor didn't even know there WERE trolloc's in two rivers they have no claim for it? It's like "I don't need to pay taxes to Finnish goverment because police weren't there to stop me from being robbed before they were even informed there was robbery going".

 

Need I remind you that Perrin sent Faile specifically to inform Andor that "We need help! There's trollocs here!".

 

The bloody white cloaks made it sure Andor COULDN'T know that there were trollocs. So because white cloaks screwed up by being made to serve shadow indirectly Andor loses claims to two rivers? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

[tneva82]

Andor has no moral claim to sovereignty of the Two Rivers, nor the capacity to hold it without Perrin. Whatever claim Andor had to being the source of law in the Two Rivers, it abrogated long ago.

 

Also, chew on this: Elayne is aware that Perrin is necessary for Rand to succeed. And therefore, for the universe to avoid destruction. And yet she threatens to execute him? And people defend this?

 

 

Unlikely he was dead serious about it. More of a way to say "Look you have put me into difficult spot. Now let's see how we can solve this situation so that everybody benefits".

 

Face it. She lets two rivers go just like that and entire Andor could end up tearing itself apart. Is it really that unreasonable that Elayne would want to save whole Andor from splitting into pieces? Especially with TG on door step...

[tneva82]

Where was Dyelin, who provided Elayne with such good advise during her other ill-fated idiocy (civil war, instead of taking the throne from the silver platter where Rand had left it for her)?

 

Yeah. Causing civil war and ensuring she will never be accepted to throne by accepting throne from rand is such a stupid thing ;)

 

Though then again who in their right mind would even want to be queen so guess it was stupid to not take "get out of queendom" card and ensure Andors won't accept her as a queen.

[tneva82]

I don't see how you can say she's bending over backwards to find a solution for both of them because it's her and her family's fault that the TR isn't really a part of Andor anyways. If they had simply done there jobs as rulers then this wouldn't even be a question, but they didn't and it's because they didn't see the TR as worth anything. Now that it is worth something they want it. Well you know what, I think that's bull! They're your people or they're not. You don't get to choose based on how profitable it is. And anyone who says that "the TR people would just kick the tax collects out" is ridiculous because if the queen had sent guards with the tax collectors(which was common in feudal times) that never would have happened and again we would never be in this situation. Honestly I think Elayne is just lucky that Perrin doesn't want to raise Manetheren because I don't think she could stop him if she wanted. IMO there is no way she could take the TR back if Perrin had chosen to just say "screw you, they're my people". She's lucky he IS honorable and didn't want to do this. She should treat him with respect he deserves.

 

So because PREVIOUS queens messed up she should just accept entire Andor collapsing?-) Lol! That's funny :D So basically Elayne is put into no-win situation out of no fault of hers. Ensure that Andor doesn't collapse and face nerdrage at dragonmount. Or avoid that nerdrage and her kingdom will split apart within few years. That's nice :D

[tneva82]

Neither Elayne nor Morgase can be blamed for Andor's loosing track of the Two Rivers.

 

But Andor abdicated its' responsibilities, and therefore its' claims, long ago.

 

If Elayne were dealing with someone who actually wanted to be King, she would be in some trouble.

 

Not really. Andorran army still outnumbers Two Rivers army big time + is better trained + likely has access to more channelers anyway.

 

If Perrin wanted to be king and do so without Elayne's help good luck! All it results into is that his followers will face death and himself execution.

 

As it is it's Perrin who is in weaker position. He can't really force his claim there. If he tries he gets slauhgtered. So technically Elayne is in no immediate reason to even let two rivers get away. Why she went over this trouble is that she a) is honorable b) recognised that they have valid point c) isn't interested in such senseless slaughter with TG at door step.

 

So instead she figured out smart way that benefits them all.

[waffle]

So because Andor didn't send troops to face trollocs when Andor didn't even know there WERE trolloc's in two rivers they have no claim for it?

 

They have no claim for it because the TR isn´t a part of Andor anymore.

 

Hasn´t been for close to 200 years.

 

If it was a part of Andor one would imagine they would have some sort of control over what goes on. Or at least they would know about it.

 

So you´re pretty much beating your own argument there.

 

Need I remind you that Perrin sent Faile specifically to inform Andor that "We need help! There's trollocs here!".

 

So? It´s flippin´ trollocs. Fighting them should be everyones priority #1.

 

And need i remind you that it was just a ruse to get Faile out of there?

[tneva82]

But even if it was about Elayne, it still doesn't justify the girl not doing her homework and respecting Mat and Perrin for their importance as Ta'veren and as a very important part of the prophecies. Because, unlike Elaida's foretell, the Karaethon Cycle does make clear references to Mat and Perrin, both (the Wolf King, the Fox who shall marry the Raven, etc.)

 

Ummm...Elayne isn't even aware of the fact Perrin is the Wolf King. Last time she met them was back when Rand took Tear. Perrin wasn't exactly going around telling everybody about his connections to wolves back then...Ditto with Fox. Has Mat told Elayne he is "Fox who shall marry the raven"? I don't think so!

 

Those prophecies don't mention Mat or Perrin by name or describe them in any way that would people go "ah! He's the wolf king!" the second they see. How is Elayne supposed to know Perrin is Wolf King when Perrin for example doesn't inform her about his connection to wolves?-)

 

Oh but I forgot! Unless Elayne is omniscient and knows everything she's idiot according to your standards.

[tneva82]

Her pride leads her to refuse taking the Lion Throne from the silver platter in which Rand offered it to her, preferring to split her country apart through civil war that leads to chaos and famine...just what the Dark One wants. She certainly wants no Aiel presence, because they are foreign warriors in Andorian soil. Never mind that their loyalty to Rand would make them loyal to her as few would be. Nah! That doesn't work. Why don't we hire sellswords to form part of the Queensguard, instead? Never mind that those guys aren't loyal to anything or anyone but...coin...real smart move by Her Grace!

 

Yup. It WAS smart move. Otherwise would have created civil war even more certainly and ensure only way she'll ever be ruling Andor is by making damn sure everybody obeys by force. She would need to use Aiel's to subjucate Andor for rest of her reign in constant civil wars.

 

That sure sounds smart! Are you even sure those Aiel's would be there forever as her private army? Cause once they leave she's toast with pretty much entire Andor against her.

[tneva82]

 

Still, let's not forget that Elayne did have warning about a potential attack and, perhaps I'm wrong and need a reread, but as far as I can remember, she didn't even order a thorough investigation and analysis to verify the veracity of this threat and how it could be conducted, so that every possibility could be dealt with to the best of her people's abilities.

 

So, IMO, Elayne was irresponsible, overconfident and failed to do everything within her power to prevent a potential attack on her capital, meaning that she does deserve part of the blame herself, at least.

 

So what she should do? Waygate was locked and dealt by as far as she knew(she didn't know or have reason to suspect it could be forced open). She did order border guards strenghtened. Afterall since by all logic Caemlyn doesn't get attacked inside any assault would come from OUTSIDE. Ie the side whose defences she increased.

 

What more could she do? She strenghtened guards so that if the attack comes they can hold better until reinforcements come via gateways. She took the sensible and reasonable precautions. Again you are assuming she knows stuff very few in Randland knows in a first place. It's sorta hard to expect her to know we as a READERS know!

[tneva82]

At least she didn't kill him, though she did try to bully him into submission. Perrin, at that point, would have none of that, of course. But the mere thought of wanting him dead, before anything else, shows how ruthless and ambitious this girl is.

 

Sheesh. Have you rewritten the book to more your suiting? Because atleast in my copy I bought Elayne does NOT want Perrin dead. So could you stop spreading that LIE!

[tneva82]

It's not prediction, I'm talking about. It's warning. Elayne was warned that an attack was coming. She just decided to dismiss it as the black sister's attempt to unsettle her and buy some time for the Black's colleagues to rescue her.

 

Lol. She took precautions against attacks. Okay sure she didn't go around destroying waygate. She wasn't in possession of knowledge it WASN'T safely secured as she was told and had every reason to believe it was true.

 

She took every precaution that could be expected and strenghtened defences on the areas attack is coming if it's true. But since she isn't omniscient she doesn't know that the waygate ISN'T safe and secured. It was sealed. Elayne doesn't know(nor could he find out in time anyway) that it could be forced open. She has no reason to believe that happens. Therefore only way she can predict attack to come is outside. And guess what? Against that he prepared for.

 

She didn't ignore it. She acted on it. It's just that she isn't all knowing GOD so didn't take into that 0.00000000001% likely event(as far as she knew).

[blazetheearth]

I believe that randsc's point is not that they didn't come AFTER the trollocs arrived in the TR. The troops should have already been in place, remember we see that after Whitebridge the towns along the Camelyn Road have patrols of the QG, but none in Baerlon instead we have a Mayor with town militia that stop the fight between Rand and WC's.

 

The real point is through the entire story the Queen of Andor (Morgase or Elayne take your pick) is consistently unable to defend or support the TR.

 

And according to Morgase in TEoTW when she is talking to Rand in the throne room :

"A loyal Andorman from the Two Rivers. Daughter, the Two Rivers hasn't seen a tax collector in seven generation. I would doubt if many there even remember that they are a part of the realm."

 

So, she as Queen, knew that people from TR would have no reason to support her or Andor.

 

Like Perrin tells Elayne in ToM, "Rebellion isn't the only reason that men might need the attention of the Queen who claims them." And while he cites defense from trollocs, I would add defense from WC's.

And we need to remember that when Perrin goes back to save the TR from Fain and finds trollocs it is the SECOND time in a year that trollocs have attacked the TR. If Andor claimed them, why wasn't something sent after the first attack, but before the second? I am sure Eggy told her best Novice friend Elayne about what happened w/ her leaving the TR if not the entire story, and we can assume not the whole story because Elayne doesn't know about Rand channeling until after Falme (but it makes sense that she would have at least told her the story the way they told Lord Agelmar after coming back from the Eye. So all Elayne would have had to do is send a letter to Morgase asking her to send troops to check out what happened, and this could have easily been done before Lilandrin took them to Falme. But we see no evidence of it.

 

But let's look at Perrin's statement about "men might need the attention of the Queen". Can you not think of any other reason why the TR would need the attention of Andor, besides defense?

 

How about better roads? Would have allowed the TR folk to take their wool and tabac to a market (or markets) in Baerlon instead of having to accept whatever prices the peddlers are willing to pay. And goes hand in hand with the next point.

 

How about access to engineers/city planners to put up a bridge to the south or north instead of having to use a rope ferry to get in or out? And we know bridge building is not a lost art, look at Ebou Dar, but Andor has never cared enough about the TR to have this done that we see.

 

How about educational opportunities, farm subsidies (in lean years), and the list can go on.

 

I DO think that the TR should have been paying taxes for all of this.

 

But you can't have it both ways.

If Andor claims them, then Andor has a responsibility to them. Period!

 

Andor has not lived up to their RESPONSIBILITY for TR for AT LEAST seven generations (i.e. AT LEAST 150 years), and we don't even KNOW that they lived up to it then, just that Andor TAXED them then.

 

And Elayne does not seem (from what we see in her PoV when thinking about TR) to believe that Andor has a responsibility to them as her subjects, just that they should bow down and got back to being a forgotten and neglected portion of the realm.

 

And I agree w/ the earlier post that says she should have investigated the 'rumor of rebellion' as opposed to simply action on them and sending troops to quiet them down.

Notice also that the troops did NOT get sent because of 2 trollocs attack within Andor's borders, but the "RUMOR" of rebellion causes her to dispatch troops. Pretty poor governing, IMHO. Not exactly the kind of behavior to inspire loyalty among her subjects.

[tneva82]

What proof or indication does SHE have (before leaving Salidar) that "finding the Bowl" will FAIL WITHOUT HER, because I cannot find any evidence of it.

 

Sure she doesn't KNOW it will fail without her but odds of finding don't exactly suffer if she comes. Rather opposite and the bowl was vital. World was BOILING to death without it. Andor < bowl. It's find the bowl or die through world boiling itself.

 

Nothing is certain but you can increase odds.

[tneva82]

Here's what annoyed me the most about Elayne...

 

From Elayne's whole impersonating a Forsaken scene, she gained credible intelligence that a MAJOR attack on Andor was coming soon. So what does she do with this intelligence? NOTHING!

 

In fact, she decides to go off to Cairhien to become queen there, so she's not even in Andor to guard it in what could be its greatest time of need. I understand the necessity of her getting crowned in Cairhien, but he should have at least started a major investigation into how Andor could be attacked. I felt her lack of action on the intel that Andor will soon be attacked was a terrible decision!

 

Ummm...Taking precautions against the most realistic source of attacks is doing nothing?

 

Ah well. Guess you can't appeal to people who think book characters should be omniscient gods because we as readers know everything by the virtue of reading a god damn book.

[tneva82]

You're right, she did do something. However, I still think that Elayne leaving Andor in such a dangerous time was a horrible decision. I also think that beefing up the border guards would be completely ineffective for a few reasons:

 

Please. It's not like we are talking she's weeks away from Andor. She can get BACK to Andor in like 5 seconds. She can be INFORMED about attack pretty damn fast.

 

From attack starting to Elayne coming back it's like half an hour, tops. By that time any attackers are still trying to go through border guards and Elayne will be bringing up reinforcements along.

 

Your point would be correct pre-travelling. Now only difference she could make is leave army to capital BUT she had no way to know attack there would even be possible. As far as she COULD know nothing could come to Caemlyn unnoticed.

 

2. The black sister made the attack sound like it was going to be very devastating and very large. By increasing guards on your border you are effectively splitting up your forces more (after all, you have to cover the whole border). So even if the attack came from outside of Andor, there is no way that the guards stationed at one border are going to defeat a huge army of shadowspawn.

 

Not their job. Their job is to find out about army in time and delay them until Elayne can bring main army via travelling. This way she can defend whole country effectively rather than just the capital. Afterall alternative is to camp entire army at one place...Good at THAT place but no good for others. Maybe Elayne is more concerned about WHOLE Andor than just the capital? You know? All those Andorran's OUTSIDE capital? Remember them? Or do you see thm just as sacrificial cattle that can be killed and eaten without concern?

 

Finally it really isn't unreasonable for Elayne to send someone to just check on the way gate. I *think* (not certain) that she knows its there. If I knew a huge attack was coming, I would definitely just want to check that a massive hole in my defenses is definitely secure.

 

So she goes, sees it's sealed. Then what? We don't even know she didn't do that. Book isn't telling everything they do(and then she went to eat dinner. Then she yawned as he felt sleepy. And then readers fell asleep reading this 1000 book serie). Checking that waygate is sealed(which readers already knew) is useless waste of pages. Something that can be done off screen just as well since it doesn't tell readers anything new.

[tneva82]

Well, that's because Perrin was a rebel lol! Never said otherwise. I said that he wasn't a "dangerous rebel" that was threatening Andor in the way that, oh IDK, the Rebel Alliance threatened Palpatine's rule in Star Wars or the Targaryen's threatened Robert Baratheon's rule in ASoIaF, for instance.

 

If he was allowed to split TR from Andor it would almost certainly cause serious unrest for Andor and very likely result in devastating civil war. Right with TG at doorstep.

 

He might not be dangerous rebel as in actively seeking to overthrown goverment and take it's place but he's dangerous rebel by mere fact he is rebel. That needs to be sorted out and as Elayne is reasonable, smart and honourable she figured out legal way to do so ensuring that everybody's interest is followed.

 

Elayne was in no obligation to do so. If she had wanted she could have crushed this rebellion for good by force of arms. But that would be senseless with TG at door and she recognised TR's claim as sensible one. She's too smart and honorable to go around doing such slaughter with TG at door so instead opted for diplomatic solution. What she couldn't do is leave it unattended, let TR split on their own and cause Andor to split up as a result. That would be just horrible(and weaken mankind in TG to boot. Shadow sure would love that!)

[tneva82]

So? It´s flippin´ trollocs. Fighting them should be everyones priority #1.

 

Yes. If they know about them. Kinda hard to fight against trollocs if you don't know there's trollocs to be fought...

 

Oh I forgot. Andor should just know magically whenever there's trollocs at TR. Nevermind at that point trollocs were exceedingly rare outside borderlands. Lol!

 

Why people assume characters in books are omniscient just because we as a reader know everything. Last time I checked books should atleast follow some logic and part of being logical is that characters don't know more than they realistically would. Magically knowing that "oh damn now there's trollocs at two rivers" without anybody telling them is NOT realistic.

[blazetheearth]

Andorran army still outnumbers Two Rivers army big time + is better trained + likely has access to more channelers anyway.

 

 

I'll address each point

 

"Andoran army still outnumbers TR army big time" - maybe, but not Perrin's army. The Wolf Guard masses over 80,000 troops.

Perrin

Perrin is the overall commander, with Tam al'Thor his second in command.

 

Commanding the Winged Guards (Mayene) is Bertain Gallene

Commanding the Legion of the Wall (Ghealdan) is Gerard Arganda

Commanding the Two Rivers bowmen is most likely Wil al'Seen, with Ban al'Seen also having a leadership role

Commanding the Cha'Faile is of course Faile

 

 

 

Army size and makeup:

 

Calvary

Winged Guards--1000

Legion of the Wall--1,000

White Cloaks--5-7,000

 

 

Channelers

2 Asha'men (Grady and Neal)

3 Aes Sedai (Seonid, Masuri, Annoura)

6 Wise Ones (Nevarin, Edarra, . . .)

 

Infantry

70,000 to 85,000

Whitecloaks--10 to 15,000

Perrin's Army--60 to 80,000

 

Infantry includes quarterstaff, swords, as well as crossbowmen. Probably pikes as well though we're not specifically shown that.

 

Longbowmen

1,000 to 1,500 Two Rivers men

500 to 1,000 "outlanders"

 

Total forces

7,000 to 9,000 calvary

2,000 to 3,000 archers

70,000 to 85,000 infantry

 

 

As of the battle of Malden there were 200 Two Rivers longbowmen. I imagine they suffered some losses there and also gained new recruits as well.

 

Anyone remember or can find how many of the Mayeners (Ghealdans) there are? Am I missing anyone else? Anybody got a better name for Perrin's army than "Perrin's Army"?

 

Edit 1: 1,000 Ghealdans (2,000 total calvary at the battle of Jehanna road. We know for sure that the Winged Guard is 1,000, so by subtraction that leaves a 1,000 for the Legion of the Wall)

 

Edit 2: 3,000 bowmen at Malden. 2,000 Two Rivers and 1,000 outlanders with shorter bows. Figuring losses since then (which don't seem to be heavy amongst the archers) and I figure there's somewhere between 2000 and 2500 bowmen in the Two Rivers command.

 

Edit 3: Total forces. 79,000 to 97,000 (Other than the Seanchan this may be the largest army in Randland as of the end of ToM)

 

Andor (and just Andor because Elayne had not taken the Sun Throne yet, and w/o the Band because Mat would not fight Perrin for Elayne)

 

Elayne defended Caemlyn with 10,000 men against Arymilla's 30,000; after that battle, most of Arymilla's forces went to Elayne; all in all I would say that that's about 25,000-30,000 add in approximately 50-60,000 soldiers brought up from the rest of the nobles Comes out to about 75-90,000 troops total at most 100k. Sure there are merc outside Camelyn but they are not Elayne's anymore. She holds them there in the 'hope' of getting a new contract. Perrin could just as easily purchase their services.

 

Looks about even to me.

 

Training - As we see during the Civil War that at least half of Andor are badly trained levies who at most know how to hold a spear.

While in Perrin's camp - Faile has a conversation with Perrin where she remarks on the high percentage of the refugees who decide to follow Perrin and how fast they learn their weapons and how many of them turn out to have a knack for it. It's the ta'veren affect on these people that helps them learn quickly.

 

To me the Ta'veren effect gives the edge in training here to the Wolf Gaurd + all of the experience that Perrins troops have against Shaido and trollocs, Where as Elayne's have ONLY fought other Andormen, when they have fought at all.

 

Channelers. Since you were including them when talking about forces for battle, I have to assume that you mean Battle Capable Channelers.

 

Elayne = 0

Perrin = 8

 

Yes, she has more for Traveling and Healing, but that is ALL the Kin will do for her. That will not help when the 2 Asha'man start "Rolling Waves of Fire and Earth" through her ranks while linked in a circle w/ 3 WO's each.

 

And since Elayne would be the attacking force, she would not have the walls of Camelyn to hide behind and w/o the Band, no cannons...er, dragons.

 

The reason the I say Elayne would be the attacking force is because if Perrin did raise Manetheren's banner and try to reform that kingdom, Manetheren did NOT include the land where Camelyn stands. So she would have to attack to "put down a rebellion" in a part of the realm she has no moral claim to anyway.

[blazetheearth]

I am going to stop arguing with Morde...er, I mean tneva82 now. Almost everything I am seeing from him/her is based on "In the End, Everything that Elayne did is for the best." And that is way to close to "Do Anything to Forward the Cause of The Light" no matter if it hurts others. The EXACT same reasoning that caused Aridhol to become Shadar Logoth.

 

Some people simply cannot understand that supporting the Light is making the correct MORAL choices. At the time she made the EB decision, based on facts known to her, it was not the correct MORAL choice. She was NOT weighing "SAVING THE WORLD" vs "ANDOR", because she could NOT have been certain that it was "SAVING THE WORLD" but "ANDOR" is her home, her people, and her RESPONSIBILITY. The Bowl was NOT her RESPONSIBILITY.

[waffle]

Oh I forgot. Andor should just know magically whenever there's trollocs at TR. Nevermind at that point trollocs were exceedingly rare outside borderlands. Lol!

 

Well, if they claim that the TR is part of Andor then they should have some clue about what goes on there.

 

It´s not just about trollocs. Andor has no bloody idea what´s up in the TR and they don´t care. Only when it looks like the people there are standing up for themselves do they start moving.

 

And that wasn´t my point at all anyway. From your post i read out that you thought the TR has no place in sending to caemlyn for help agaisnt trollocs when they don´t want to be a part of Andor. But like i said, it was just a ruse, he wasn´t expecting any help to arrive on time anyway. And fighting trollocs should be everyones #1 priority

[waffle]

He might not be dangerous rebel as in actively seeking to overthrown goverment and take it's place but he's dangerous rebel by mere fact he is rebel.

 

He´s not a rebel. TR is not a part of Andor.

 

If she had wanted she could have crushed this rebellion for good by force of arms.

 

Yeah. We´re just going to have to disagree on that one.

[Mystraka]

Neither Elayne nor Morgase can be blamed for Andor's loosing track of the Two Rivers.

 

But Andor abdicated its' responsibilities, and therefore its' claims, long ago.

 

If Elayne were dealing with someone who actually wanted to be King, she would be in some trouble.

 

Not really. Andorran army still outnumbers Two Rivers army big time + is better trained + likely has access to more channelers anyway.

 

If Perrin wanted to be king and do so without Elayne's help good luck! All it results into is that his followers will face death and himself execution.

 

As it is it's Perrin who is in weaker position. He can't really force his claim there. If he tries he gets slauhgtered. So technically Elayne is in no immediate reason to even let two rivers get away. Why she went over this trouble is that she a) is honorable b) recognised that they have valid point c) isn't interested in such senseless slaughter with TG at door step.

 

So instead she figured out smart way that benefits them all.

 

Perrin's army is pretty massive, but as listed above I'm not sure you could count the whitecloaks amongst those that would fight Elayne as Galad leads them. That being said, Perrin is Ta'veren, and Rand's close personal friend. If he had a burning desire to raise Manetheren and declare himself king, There would be no way to stop him, the pattern swirls around him and Rand has given thrones to people he trusts much less than Perrin. There is no way he would need Elayne's help for that under any circumstances.

 

A couple things about Elaynes POV I didn't like with regards to Perrin:

1.) As she was negotiating with Mat over the use of the belfounders, she tried to con Mat into swearing his army into a position to be forced to fight Perrin/TR. Elayne admits her ploy in her POV when Mat refuses to be tied to Andor. If Elayne's intentions were as honorable as you suggest, this POV needed to be written differently, as that was as underhanded an attempt as ever to get two close friends fighting.

 

2.) Elayne did a great job at the public portion of her meeting with Perrin, and conducted herself with the regal aire of authority one would expect. However, after Faile suggests they make it a tad more private, Elayne tries to strongarm Perrin. In the confines of her own sitting room, she has no need to put on a show for everyone, and should have greeted Perrin with more respect (more like a friend than an enemy, like she did with Mat). I got the feeling she was set on using force with him until Morgase warned her that "dancing with Ta'veren" might not be the wisest of choices.

[waffle]

However, after Faile suggests they make it a tad more private, Elayne tries to strongarm Perrin. In the confines of her own sitting room, she has no need to put on a show for everyone, and should have greeted Perrin with more respect (more like a friend than an enemy, like she did with Mat).

 

To be honest, Elayne and Perrin are not friends. They have a lot of mutual friends (Rand, Min, Mat etc), but they themselves are not friends.

 

 

Still a dumb move trying to bully someone like Perrin though.

[Mystraka]

However, after Faile suggests they make it a tad more private, Elayne tries to strongarm Perrin. In the confines of her own sitting room, she has no need to put on a show for everyone, and should have greeted Perrin with more respect (more like a friend than an enemy, like she did with Mat).

 

To be honest, Elayne and Perrin are not friends. They have a lot of mutual friends (Rand, Min, Mat etc), but they themselves are not friends.

 

 

Still a dumb move trying to bully someone like Perrin though.

 

 

I don't recall ever saying they were actual friends, I simply said her treatment towards Perrin should have been more along the lines of how she would treat a friend rather than enemy, especially in private where no pretenses need be maintained. (much the same way I treat my wife's family/friends :) )

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

To the people who think Elayne wouldn't think that an attack could come from within Caemlyn...

 

Did she not think the nobles would attack her from one particular outside area during the sucession? and yet the Hire-swords rebelled WITHIN the gates against her. would this not constitute an attack within the city?

 

The BA said an attack against Andor right?

 

Surely inside her own city constitutes part of andor? what if BT attacked? thats what easily covered distance to Caemlyn right?

 

Elayne Left without sufficient thought about the probable sorts of attacks and therefore the consequences of the attack are in large part her fault