The Black Tower

[Shard]

I remember the personality twisting quote being from the Question a Week thing that Tor did.

[dwn]

Thanks, Shard. It seems I was searching for the wrong terms.

 

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

That just sounds a lot more subtle than the description we have of Tarna and Mezar.

 

-- dwn

[Danny7185]

It reminded me very much of the scene where Elayne is unweaving her gateway from the Kin's farm to Andor. I get the feeling that if Androl tried hard enough, he could force those weaves to hold together. But yes, I'm sure some extra strength would help, and that seems to be what he is suggesting to Pevara when they meet.

 

Good catch, I totally missed that. Since

1) We know Saidar+Saidin weaves are more stable, e.g. nobody could slice through Callandor's protection.

2) Someone earlier in the book remarked that simply using saidar to reinforce his saidin weaves made them far more powerful.

3) The book implies Androl is thinking of #1 when he (p.820) says that "Once, long ago, when men and women who worked the Power strove together. They were stronger for it."

 

I can think of two simple solutions:

4) Regardless of whether he weaves harmoniously (#1) or selfishly (#2), Androl is a Gateway God and the dreamspike won't stand a chance against his saidar-reinforced gateway. (´ー`)y-~~

 

From what we saw in TAR, however, I doubt the dreamspike functions like this. Consider the paralyzing effect on Perrin when he passes through the dome: he feels "unreal" when entering the dome. Also consider that the dreamspike ONLY affects gateways and no other weaves. Furthermore, this ignores the "key" that Moridin mentions.

 

5) Plot cops out and Perrin saves the day by killing Slayer and disposing of the last Dreamspike. ＿|￣|○ I will cry if this happens because they set Androl up to be a hero.

 

 

A more loony guess:

6) I suspect the area in the dreamspike is out of phase with the rest of the pattern--i.e. it "phase shifts" everything in the dome. When Perrin and Hopper re-imagine themselves into being, I think they're tuning themselves to the out-of-phase area: they're intuitively using the "key" that Moridin mentioned in passing. Since this makes use of the "key" idea, it makes more sense than a vacuole situation of being "removed" from the pattern. This agrees with the dream protection that Slayer mentions. It also explains why the dreamspike only affects Traveling, since Traveling is the only weave that would require the location of a point inside the dome.

 

So how does something in TAR affect the real world?

The dreamspike affects the Pattern, which stretches across all worlds. Balefiring Rahvin in TAR, for example, affected the real world. Hence, the dreamspike's phase-shifting of a part of the Pattern should affect both the waking world and TAR.

 

To Travel from point A (inside the dreamspike) to B, you need to know both points' locations. Channelers just form an image in their head and the Pattern kind of plugs in the coordinates for them. The dreamspike, however, means the area is phase-shifted. In the waking world, people can't tune themselves to this phase like they can in TAR. And if you're out-of-phase with the area, then you're feeding the gateway weave a starting or ending location outside the Pattern. Hence, the gateway won't form: Androl's failed gateway didn't even get a vertical slash. This is where the key comes into play--the weave has to adjust for the oddball starting/ending location. And if anybody in Randland can figure out how to crack the key, it's probably Androl.

 

 

My explanation is full of holes, but I can't think of anything else that addresses the key issues and contradictions:

1) There's a dome in TAR but not the real world

2) Something in TAR affects the real world

3) Perrin experiences paralysis when walking through the TAR dome

4) The Aes Sedai don't have Perrin's problem when the dreamspike gets moved into the tower (i.e. becoming paralyzed)

5) Inability to Travel within the dome when you can Dreamwalk within the dome

6) That a "key" can be used to bypass the problem (and it sounds like a cryptology key since he implies multiple people can use it)

TLDR:

Post any dreamspike questions we can ask Brandon on Sunday in Cambridge.

 

 

The fact that Dreamspike's placed in TAR effect gateways in the real world suggest to me that Traveling uses TAR in order to work. I know Traveling is bending the Pattern to move from Point A to Point B. But couldn't using TAR be the bending of the Pattern?

 

And why would every other weave besides Gateways work? If making a Gateway is the only weave that they've tried that incorporates TAR, then that is why it is the only one failing.

 

If you have the key to the Dreamspike then you can access TAR and create a Gateway in the "spiked" area.

 

If this made any sense, then Androl's skill with Gateways could mean he would do very well TAR. Since his strength in the One Power doesn't make him much use in the real world this could lead to him being very powerful in TAR. He is obviously a quick/clever guy since he has been able to learn so many trades in real life. I would love to see him dominate everyone stronger in the One Power in TAR.

 

 

As a reference, I was thinking about when Egwene opened a Gateway directly to TAR in LOC; she was only opening up point A. If she wanted to come out in the real world then she would need to pick a Point B.

[Guest]

For me it is evidence that Taim IS Demandred. Pretty conclusive evidence.

 

How?

 

We know from the cleansing that he is not - Demandred POV, he doesn't recognize Damer Flinn. Taim would that, since he deposited Flinn with Rand in the first place.

 

We know from RJ that he is not.

 

We also have a POV from a rogue Asha'man claiming to recieve orders from both Demmy and Taim to kill Rand.

 

Oops, I mistyped. No sleep from reading the book! Tain = Moridin. I fixed my post.

 

He's using the TP to get in through the dreamspike, plus access to apparently all sort of cool stuff that even Graendal (who was using the TP) didn't have access to (the vacuole).

 

We know he's got access to Moridin's stash (which even Graendal didn't have until this book), and can probably also use the TP. Pretty rare air. More access to cool stuff and the TP than Graendal? i think only one fits the bill.

 

I am starting to think this as well, what i thought was the most give-away clues, was that when Graendal visited Moridins "castle" she notices the black structure/stone iirc, and dont we know that the black tower is made of black stone and the OP ?

 

edit: on a sidenote, im really disappointed at the lack of/amount of time we hear about the BT in ToM. No action for the golden three (Flinn, Narishma, Logain) i might have to expand this to a quintet (spelling) to include Neaff? (the dude Nynaeve cleans madness out of) and Androl though. Narishma went to the BT to check whats going on did he not?

[analyticalkeys]

For me it is evidence that Taim IS Demandred. Pretty conclusive evidence.

 

How?

 

We know from the cleansing that he is not - Demandred POV, he doesn't recognize Damer Flinn. Taim would that, since he deposited Flinn with Rand in the first place.

 

We know from RJ that he is not.

 

We also have a POV from a rogue Asha'man claiming to recieve orders from both Demmy and Taim to kill Rand.

 

Oops, I mistyped. No sleep from reading the book! Tain = Moridin. I fixed my post.

 

He's using the TP to get in through the dreamspike, plus access to apparently all sort of cool stuff that even Graendal (who was using the TP) didn't have access to (the vacuole).

 

We know he's got access to Moridin's stash (which even Graendal didn't have until this book), and can probably also use the TP. Pretty rare air. More access to cool stuff and the TP than Graendal? i think only one fits the bill.

 

I am starting to think this as well, what i thought was the most give-away clues, was that when Graendal visited Moridins "castle" she notices the black structure/stone iirc, and dont we know that the black tower is made of black stone and the OP ?

 

edit: on a sidenote, im really disappointed at the lack of/amount of time we hear about the BT in ToM. No action for the golden three (Flinn, Narishma, Logain) i might have to expand this to a quintet (spelling) to include Neaff? (the dude Nynaeve cleans madness out of) and Androl though. Narishma went to the BT to check whats going on did he not?

 

This just means that the BT plays an important role in the Last Battle if the details of that arc are being saved for AMOL. I did want to hear more about it in this book, but I didn't, so I guess there's nothing we can do about that.

[Sharaman]

Guesses as to resolution:

1) Pevara and Androl will formulate a cunning plan and, and ?

2) Rand/ Perrin will check out BT in TAR and then jump in with all six feet.

3) Myrelle will bond Taim with her special warder-friending weaves and thus send him into ecstasies previously-undreamt of, thus luring him back to the Light.

4) Logain will arrive, righteous in his wrath

5) All of the above --

[Guest]

Guesses as to resolution:

1) Pevara and Androl will formulate a cunning plan and, and ?

2) Rand/ Perrin will check out BT in TAR and then jump in with all six feet.

3) Myrelle will bond Taim with her special warder-friending weaves and thus send him into ecstasies previously-undreamt of, thus luring him back to the Light.

4) Logain will arrive, righteous in his wrath

5) All of the above --

 

4 defo! My homeboy L to the ogain with aid from Flinn and Nasishma will be too much for Taim to handle aiit

[TheAngryDruid]

The differences from RJ's description and what was observed in Tarna and Mezar makes me wonder if something else is indeed going on. I jumped on 13x13 immediately, but maybe not?

 

RJ's comment also gives me hope for those turned. He said someone turned by 13x13 probably couldn't turn back to the Light UNAIDED. With aid, perhaps they could. This could be a huge boon for the Light, and a blow to the Shadow, if it could be accomplished.

 

I haven't done the re-read, but is there any indication if a dreamspike blocks the ability of someone who enters T'A'R physically? I'm thinking Slayer and Perrin, obviously could get in, but could Rand or Egwene? Shouldn't they be able to enter T'A'R physically, got to/through the spike, and take care of it?

 

Of course, getting in is one thing, out another.

 

I'll have to do a re-read, am I off here?

[Mulk]

The differences from RJ's description and what was observed in Tarna and Mezar makes me wonder if something else is indeed going on. I jumped on 13x13 immediately, but maybe not?

 

RJ's comment also gives me hope for those turned. He said someone turned by 13x13 probably couldn't turn back to the Light UNAIDED. With aid, perhaps they could. This could be a huge boon for the Light, and a blow to the Shadow, if it could be accomplished.

 

Your comment intrigues me. I haven't gone back to check anything so I may be off base as well, but as soon as I read your remark I thought what if 13x13 is a sort of induced madness - the darkness of the Dark One pressing on the brain like the madness does to a male channeler? That would imply (though it would probably take a circle or someone with a really powerful sa'angreal to do it) that it is in fact undoable.

[Sharaman]

The differences from RJ's description and what was observed in Tarna and Mezar makes me wonder if something else is indeed going on. I jumped on 13x13 immediately, but maybe not?

 

RJ's comment also gives me hope for those turned. He said someone turned by 13x13 probably couldn't turn back to the Light UNAIDED. With aid, perhaps they could. This could be a huge boon for the Light, and a blow to the Shadow, if it could be accomplished.

 

I haven't done the re-read, but is there any indication if a dreamspike blocks the ability of someone who enters T'A'R physically? I'm thinking Slayer and Perrin, obviously could get in, but could Rand or Egwene? Shouldn't they be able to enter T'A'R physically, got to/through the spike, and take care of it?

 

Of course, getting in is one thing, out another.

 

I'll have to do a re-read, am I off here?

Do you mean would somebody be able to enter TAR while physically present under the Dome?

If you're not using a Gate, it should be easy enough.

Other weaves don't get affected so ter'angreal should work. So will natural dream ability.

Entering in the flesh using a channeled Gate won't work under the dome.

Open question whether Rand or any non-wolfman would be able to use Perinn-Hopper's method to get in under the dome from outside.

I've asked several times whether this is a new/ unique ability? Nobody knows enough to have a definite answer.

[Cut Strand]

So during the War of Power, mindtrapping was apparently a fairly common tool the Shadow used to turn men and women. We have never seen the 13x13 trick in action, but it's apparently not something that can be pulled off at a moment's notice, else everyone in the BT would have been quickly turned. Perhaps it's simply exhausting, and others have speculated that the 13 myrddraal die in the process.

 

The main problem I have with the 13x13 trick in this case is the cold and lifeless description we have of Tarna and Mezar, which just doesn't seem to fit the effect that RJ described. I've dug around on Theoryland and 13th Depository for that quote but can't find it (it's awfully hard to navigate those sites, BTW). Here's one relevant quote, but I'd really like to find the one describing the personality twisting.

 

RJ: I have not abandoned this notion about a circle of thirteen Aes Sedai and thirteen Myrddraal can convert someone to the Shadow. It is not an easy situation to set up, in fact it's a very difficult situation to set up. It has to be worth the effort, you don't go to all of this effort to just convert anyone. In fact it might be better for your plans to manipulate someone against their will than as a willing ally.

 

-- dwn

On being cold and lifeless:

 

If being turned by 13x13 recalibrates your moral compass to "ass hole", and you are still asked to pretend to be yourself pre-turning, it may mean hiding extra selfishness and hatred of those that aren't also darkfriends.

 

It might be easier to try to show no emotion than to try to pretend at being friendly.

[JDJ]

So during the War of Power, mindtrapping was apparently a fairly common tool the Shadow used to turn men and women. We have never seen the 13x13 trick in action, but it's apparently not something that can be pulled off at a moment's notice, else everyone in the BT would have been quickly turned. Perhaps it's simply exhausting, and others have speculated that the 13 myrddraal die in the process.

 

The main problem I have with the 13x13 trick in this case is the cold and lifeless description we have of Tarna and Mezar, which just doesn't seem to fit the effect that RJ described. I've dug around on Theoryland and 13th Depository for that quote but can't find it (it's awfully hard to navigate those sites, BTW). Here's one relevant quote, but I'd really like to find the one describing the personality twisting.

 

RJ: I have not abandoned this notion about a circle of thirteen Aes Sedai and thirteen Myrddraal can convert someone to the Shadow. It is not an easy situation to set up, in fact it's a very difficult situation to set up. It has to be worth the effort, you don't go to all of this effort to just convert anyone. In fact it might be better for your plans to manipulate someone against their will than as a willing ally.

 

-- dwn

On being cold and lifeless:

 

If being turned by 13x13 recalibrates your moral compass to "ass hole", and you are still asked to pretend to be yourself pre-turning, it may mean hiding extra selfishness and hatred of those that aren't also darkfriends.

 

It might be easier to try to show no emotion than to try to pretend at being friendly.

 

I just wonder if compulsion might just not be a tad easier to do... and still end up with potentially somewhat same results in the end.

[Sharaman]

So during the War of Power, mindtrapping was apparently a fairly common tool the Shadow used to turn men and women. We have never seen the 13x13 trick in action, but it's apparently not something that can be pulled off at a moment's notice, else everyone in the BT would have been quickly turned. Perhaps it's simply exhausting, and others have speculated that the 13 myrddraal die in the process.

 

The main problem I have with the 13x13 trick in this case is the cold and lifeless description we have of Tarna and Mezar, which just doesn't seem to fit the effect that RJ described. I've dug around on Theoryland and 13th Depository for that quote but can't find it (it's awfully hard to navigate those sites, BTW). Here's one relevant quote, but I'd really like to find the one describing the personality twisting.

 

RJ: I have not abandoned this notion about a circle of thirteen Aes Sedai and thirteen Myrddraal can convert someone to the Shadow. It is not an easy situation to set up, in fact it's a very difficult situation to set up. It has to be worth the effort, you don't go to all of this effort to just convert anyone. In fact it might be better for your plans to manipulate someone against their will than as a willing ally.

 

-- dwn

On being cold and lifeless:

 

If being turned by 13x13 recalibrates your moral compass to "ass hole", and you are still asked to pretend to be yourself pre-turning, it may mean hiding extra selfishness and hatred of those that aren't also darkfriends.

 

It might be easier to try to show no emotion than to try to pretend at being friendly.

 

I just wonder if compulsion might just not be a tad easier to do... and still end up with potentially somewhat same results in the end.

The only issue is that it might turned them into mazed idiots.

Which they don't appear to be. Just lifeless and cold.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Interesting dicusion for sure. Not much to add accpet on the point of Ishy being Taim, I find this so very unlikely or immpossible i just laugh when i see it. People seem to want to tag Taim alot of things, why can he not just be what he is? A person who is drunk on power and a giant ego to match? not like that is strech in this world!! :)

 

I was goanna say no way mind traps were used, but the people for this theory made some grand points that have me thinking they may be right. The thing i think back to is Moraines letter to Rand on the what if's. and one of the what if's were Rand coming back looking evil? and answering only to Lews Therrin, and the description fits what i felt when i read about Tarna.

 

What is with the Tarna love here anyways, this is still a person who followed Elidia.

[SheriLevisay]

Is it possible that Logain is Enaril (sp? the nobleman who everyone wonders where he came from)? That way he's checking on the BT without announcing his presence. I agree that it's unlike Rand to have his fingers touching on so many different issues and paying no attention at all to the BT.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Is it possible that Logain is Enaril (sp? the nobleman who everyone wonders where he came from)? That way he's checking on the BT without announcing his presence. I agree that it's unlike Rand to have his fingers touching on so many different issues and paying no attention at all to the BT.

 

 

Pretty sure he was the lord of the manor where the trollocs attacked Rand and company, do not have book handy, but he sure fits that profile.

[everetc]

I think this has come up once or twice before in this discussion, but after reading ToM, I am more inclined to believe Taim is Moridin. He is using the other Dreamspike at the BT that Moridin mentions, for one. Taim has used phrases that only the Forsaken use such as "so called Aiel" and "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." In a chapter in ToM while at the BT, the Aes Sedai he is speaking with specifically notice he is holding his hand behind his back. Could this not be because of the damage that hand has suffered via the link from Rand and Moridin? Furthermore, at some point in the books there is a point about how there seems a darkness around Taim that someone noticed, thus indicating a possible ability to use the TP. Bashere also doesn't recognize him when they meet. Just many indications that Taim is not who he is accepted to be (proxy or up-and-coming Forsaken) and there are some hints that he is Moridin.

[Sharaman]

Is it possible that Logain is Enaril (sp? the nobleman who everyone wonders where he came from)? That way he's checking on the BT without announcing his presence. I agree that it's unlike Rand to have his fingers touching on so many different issues and paying no attention at all to the BT.

 

 

Pretty sure he was the lord of the manor where the trollocs attacked Rand and company, do not have book handy, but he sure fits that profile.

 

IIRC Agiarin's nephew Emarin was gentled courtesy Cadsuane and Algiarin was grateful she had been err, gentle, while doing it and he wanted to try his hand at channeling. "Emarin" may be a family name or he's using it to prove a point.

[Cazajay]

I really don't see how Taim and Moridin can be the same person.

 

#1: They look nothing alike. Moridin is blond and looks rather like Rand. Taim is dark. Way too many people are in close contact with Taim for him to get away with Mask of Mirrors. He's not aloof the way Semirhage's alter ego was.

 

#2: Their personalities are nothing alike. Moridin is an intellectual, quite cool-headed, and we've never seen evidence of a Taim-sized ego in him either.

 

So, working for Moridin, pretty obvious. IS Moridin, unlikely.

 

 

Ishamael was presumably resurrected by the Great Lord into a new body with a new name, Moridin (Old Tongue for death). He is now very tall and broad-shouldered, he has very blue eyes and a deep voice and looks to be in his mid 20's with black hair. He has a square chin.

 

As you can see from the above discription you are WRONG about #1 in fact Moridin has been described on numerous occasions as being dark haired in the books.

[Cazajay]

I have a theory, perhaps the body aquired by the DO for Ishmaels soul did previously belong to Mazrim Taim. He didn't escape but was kidnapped by BA and used as fresh meat for a Chosen soul. It fits the timeline Ishmael died in Tear just before the captured BA told Moiraine and the girl wonders that there was a plan to free Mazrim.

This would explain why Bashere didn't recognize Taim the mannerisms and personality of the new soul would cause slight physical changes in the body.

Moridin and Taim are similiar in appearance and personality they love the same colours and as others have pointed out Taim seems to suffer the same problem with

his hand.

Pevara in her PoV at the BT thought she saw flames in the depths of Taim's eyes.

 

Don't you wonder who the bodies used to belong to? Apparently the DO needs a certain body to properly fit a specific soul not just any body works. RJ explained a little about Transmigration in his interviews. Mazrim would have been a perfect body for a male channeller perhaps he was intended for Aginor or the other one but when Ishmael died he got Mazrim's body as he is favoured above the others.

[griz]

Taim was just turned or was already a DF from the beginning. I think he takes orders from Moridin and Demandred. Having the dream spike and having the same colors does not make him either one. He just follows orders.

[Cazajay]

Taim was just turned or was already a DF from the beginning. I think he takes orders from Moridin and Demandred. Having the dream spike and having the same colors does not make him either one. He just follows orders.

 

He is hardly just a DF, I feel a little insulted that you cannot at least discuss my theory.

[analyticalkeys]

I'm pretty sure that RJ said Taim = Taim.

[Terez]

He did not.

[Cazajay]

I'm only aware of RJ saying Taim was not Demandred he has not to my knowledge said Taim is just Taim. Otherwise I wouldn't be speculating.