The Black Tower

[1eejit]

 

Also this is where Damandred is ruling! :D

Heh. However 'my rule is secure' seems rather redundant if taking over a colony of dyed in the wool Dreadlords.

 

You think? most dark friends and channelers are very selfish and they arent really team players. I cant imagine they would of just fallen into line at the drop of a hat.

 

Orders from a Chosen acting at the behest of the Nae'blis..?

[Oliver]

I loved the poarts of the book with the BT in it the scenes reminded me of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. With so few people left under Taims controll or compulsion why not just swoop in and wipe everyone out? There must be a reason? Any thoughts?

[Pertan]

Has anyone considered if the size of the dome created by the dreamspike can be adjusted? It would be kind of annoying if you wanted to use it to stop gateways inside a smaller area, while the dome is still 4 leagues wide. 4 leagues would probably be the maximum in that case, since Slayer would want to stop Perrins channelers from gatewaying inside as large an area as possible.

[Sharaman]

Has anyone considered if the size of the dome created by the dreamspike can be adjusted? It would be kind of annoying if you wanted to use it to stop gateways inside a smaller area, while the dome is still 4 leagues wide. 4 leagues would probably be the maximum in that case, since Slayer would want to stop Perrins channelers from gatewaying inside as large an area as possible.

Or there could be different D-Spikes with different strengths.

We don't know enough here really.

But the D-Spike should definitely have been in use when Nyn Gated to meet Myrelle. So it probably affect only the area inside the BT wall - that's huge anyway going by the WH Prologue and KoD Epilogue.

[Dakota]

Something I just noticed about the dreamspikes, when re-reading Chapter 5. When Moridin gives Graendal her dreamspike, he tells her "I know the key for this one. It will not be used against me, or others of the Chosen."

 

So it seems that each dreamspike has a sort of lock to it, and anyone knowing around the lock, I'm assuming, could still gate in and out of the dreamspike's area of effect. And also let others know how to gate in or out, if he or she decides to do so. Keep that in mind when discussing the dreamspike's effects around the Black Tower. Whoever planted it can still likely get in and out, and possibly other Dark Ashaman as well.

[1eejit]

Pity Moridin didn't think to share the key with Mesaana and actually ensure it wasn't used against other Forsaken ;)

[JSSheridan]

Also this is where Damandred is ruling! :D

 

My guess is Seandar. It makes the Essanik Cycle a bit more ominous if the Dragon is expected to submit to the Crystal Throne, especially if it's corrupted by the Shadow.

[sdelu]

I liked the BT sequences as well. Kind of upset that we didn't get to see Naeff meet with Androl, though, but I suppose we'll get that next book.

 

I loved the poarts of the book with the BT in it the scenes reminded me of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. With so few people left under Taims controll or compulsion why not just swoop in and wipe everyone out? There must be a reason? Any thoughts?

 

I think simply because there are still a large number of Logain's supporters -- large enough that if they found out people were being turned, there would be a battle. Taim's forces might be stronger, but they'd still take a lot of losses. Easier to bide their time for now, turning people slowly, gathering as many as they can.

 

Plus, with that second camp of Aes Sedai out there, it might not be prudent for them to start killing each other. They'll want them to come in as well, so they can be turned.

[miyori]

I'm convinced the people at the Black Tower were Mindtrap victims. The whole "soulless" symptom matches what we know about crushed Mindtraps: the person's soul is basically severed from the body and they end up watching themselves carry out their master's orders. Mog/Semi also commented that they did this to do this to many AoL channelers. I seem to recall Semi saying the threat of it was enough to break the strongest men. The only evidence against this would be the PITA of bringing people to the Bore. However, we only know of 3(?) people turned so far and they did it in the AoL. If anyone has the page numbers for all the Mindtrap stuff, please tell.

 

There are a couple reasons I don't buy the 13x13 theory: we know nothing about the process other than it can turn channelers. We don't know any of the symptoms, side effects, or anything else really. I also think it's a cheesy idea: Aginor didn't even know how the Myrdraal came about, much less what you could do with them using the OP. I feel like you'd have to channel the TP through a Myrdraal to do anything useful with it.

 

 

And the Taim is Moridin theory? Really, people? Has it been that long since we read the rogue Asha'man who differentiated Taim's kill orders from Moridin's take his stuff orders? If that isn't damning evidence of two distinct characters, I don't know what is.

[dwn]

I'm convinced the people at the Black Tower were Mindtrap victims. The whole "soulless" symptom matches what we know about crushed Mindtraps: the person's soul is basically severed from the body and they end up watching themselves carry out their master's orders. Mog/Semi also commented that they did this to do this to many AoL channelers. I seem to recall Semi saying the threat of it was enough to break the strongest men. The only evidence against this would be the PITA of bringing people to the Bore. However, we only know of 3(?) people turned so far and they did it in the AoL. If anyone has the page numbers for all the Mindtrap stuff, please tell.

 

There are a couple reasons I don't buy the 13x13 theory: we know nothing about the process other than it can turn channelers. We don't know any of the symptoms, side effects, or anything else really. I also think it's a cheesy idea: Aginor didn't even know how the Myrdraal came about, much less what you could do with them using the OP. I feel like you'd have to channel the TP through a Myrdraal to do anything useful with it.

 

 

And the Taim is Moridin theory? Really, people? Has it been that long since we read the rogue Asha'man who differentiated Taim's kill orders from Moridin's take his stuff orders? If that isn't damning evidence of two distinct characters, I don't know what is.

 

I too am not completely convinced it's the 13x13 trick, and the mindtrap would be a likely alternative explanation. The description RJ gave of the 13x13 trick twisting someone's personality doesn't seem so likely to change the victim's demeanour so obviously, but there must be a reason the Black Ajah didn't use it extensively before now.

 

The mindtrap sequence starts in ACoS, Mindtrap, 412.

 

-- dwn

[Cut Strand]

I'm convinced the people at the Black Tower were Mindtrap victims. The whole "soulless" symptom matches what we know about crushed Mindtraps: the person's soul is basically severed from the body and they end up watching themselves carry out their master's orders. Mog/Semi also commented that they did this to do this to many AoL channelers. I seem to recall Semi saying the threat of it was enough to break the strongest men. The only evidence against this would be the PITA of bringing people to the Bore. However, we only know of 3(?) people turned so far and they did it in the AoL. If anyone has the page numbers for all the Mindtrap stuff, please tell.

Huh? Outside yourself? I must've zoned out a lot during my readings and re-readings of the series.

 

The view I have gotten of a mindtrap was more of "voodoo doll." If I caress it, you fell it. If I crush it, you die.

 

Mindtrapping good guys seems kind of dumb. The first thing I would do if I weren't a darkfriend after I was mindtrapped is scream that someone dragged me to SG, cut me, scrapped stuff off my tongue, then made a freaky box that hurts me. Can someone please save my freaky box for me!?

 

Cyndane seemed just as free willed as Lanfear, save for the fact that Moridin has her over a barrel.

 

I think it is pretty clear that the turned guys at the black tower had their moral compasses re-aligned to point to "Shadow."

 

And to be honest, I don't think they want to turn every at the black tower (some are fairly weak). As long as there are some unturned guys, the baddies have to pretend (if poorly) to be on the straight and narrow. But once they are all black hats, they have no reason to not be more violent as they jockey for rank.

[dwn]

I'm convinced the people at the Black Tower were Mindtrap victims. The whole "soulless" symptom matches what we know about crushed Mindtraps: the person's soul is basically severed from the body and they end up watching themselves carry out their master's orders. Mog/Semi also commented that they did this to do this to many AoL channelers. I seem to recall Semi saying the threat of it was enough to break the strongest men. The only evidence against this would be the PITA of bringing people to the Bore. However, we only know of 3(?) people turned so far and they did it in the AoL. If anyone has the page numbers for all the Mindtrap stuff, please tell.

Huh? Outside yourself? I must've zoned out a lot during my readings and re-readings of the series.

 

The view I have gotten of a mindtrap was more of "voodoo doll." If I caress it, you fell it. If I crush it, you die.

 

Mindtrapping good guys seems kind of dumb. The first thing I would do if I weren't a darkfriend after I was mindtrapped is scream that someone dragged me to SG, cut me, scrapped stuff off my tongue, then made a freaky box that hurts me. Can someone please save my freaky box for me!?

 

Cyndane seemed just as free willed as Lanfear, save for the fact that Moridin has her over a barrel.

 

I think it is pretty clear that the turned guys at the black tower had their moral compasses re-aligned to point to "Shadow."

 

And to be honest, I don't think they want to turn every at the black tower (some are fairly weak). As long as there are some unturned guys, the baddies have to pretend (if poorly) to be on the straight and narrow. But once they are all black hats, they have no reason to not be more violent as they jockey for rank.

 

There are two stages to the mindtrap. The first is the 'voodoo doll' part, where the victim has free will but an axe over their head. The second destroys the soul leaving the victim basically a puppet. This puppet-ness is what Moghedion is terrified of.

 

-- dwn

[ShadowsFell]

Know what I would like to see? Androl getting bonded by Pevara, then linking and using added strength to break through the dreamspike. If Androl could almost get a weave to form, with him being as weak as he was, what would happen if he was linked with an AS?

[Terez]

It reminded me very much of the scene where Elayne is unweaving her gateway from the Kin's farm to Andor. I get the feeling that if Androl tried hard enough, he could force those weaves to hold together. But yes, I'm sure some extra strength would help, and that seems to be what he is suggesting to Pevara when they meet.

[Crossroad]

I'm convinced the people at the Black Tower were Mindtrap victims. The whole "soulless" symptom matches what we know about crushed Mindtraps: the person's soul is basically severed from the body and they end up watching themselves carry out their master's orders. Mog/Semi also commented that they did this to do this to many AoL channelers. I seem to recall Semi saying the threat of it was enough to break the strongest men. The only evidence against this would be the PITA of bringing people to the Bore. However, we only know of 3(?) people turned so far and they did it in the AoL. If anyone has the page numbers for all the Mindtrap stuff, please tell.

 

There are a couple reasons I don't buy the 13x13 theory: we know nothing about the process other than it can turn channelers. We don't know any of the symptoms, side effects, or anything else really. I also think it's a cheesy idea: Aginor didn't even know how the Myrdraal came about, much less what you could do with them using the OP. I feel like you'd have to channel the TP through a Myrdraal to do anything useful with it.

 

 

And the Taim is Moridin theory? Really, people? Has it been that long since we read the rogue Asha'man who differentiated Taim's kill orders from Moridin's take his stuff orders? If that isn't damning evidence of two distinct characters, I don't know what is.

 

Love the idea, I believe the POV with Rand and Lanfear was to show us what is happening with the people at the BT.

 

This could also be where Rand is saved by Perrin a second time in the Dream world. The only way they can find the Dream spike is in the Dream world. But how long they take to get to that assumption will be up to Brandon. Rand hasn't spoken to his friends for awhile so I'm shivering all over in anticipation.

[Guest JeffreyGardner]

the dream spike also could be use to keep the bt from helping fight in calyum sorry misspelled. then the whole taim being a forsaken. he was in a conversation where he was threaten after rand heal saidan about not needing the dark one protection. then the guy becoming so powerful they might just know trick to help speed the process up men go in leaps and bounds while sisters a steady flow they just might know a jump start

[miyori]

It reminded me very much of the scene where Elayne is unweaving her gateway from the Kin's farm to Andor. I get the feeling that if Androl tried hard enough, he could force those weaves to hold together. But yes, I'm sure some extra strength would help, and that seems to be what he is suggesting to Pevara when they meet.

 

Good catch, I totally missed that. Since

1) We know Saidar+Saidin weaves are more stable, e.g. nobody could slice through Callandor's protection.

2) Someone earlier in the book remarked that simply using saidar to reinforce his saidin weaves made them far more powerful.

3) The book implies Androl is thinking of #1 when he (p.820) says that "Once, long ago, when men and women who worked the Power strove together. They were stronger for it."

 

I can think of two simple solutions:

4) Regardless of whether he weaves harmoniously (#1) or selfishly (#2), Androl is a Gateway God and the dreamspike won't stand a chance against his saidar-reinforced gateway. (´ー`)y-~~

 

From what we saw in TAR, however, I doubt the dreamspike functions like this. Consider the paralyzing effect on Perrin when he passes through the dome: he feels "unreal" when entering the dome. Also consider that the dreamspike ONLY affects gateways and no other weaves. Furthermore, this ignores the "key" that Moridin mentions.

 

5) Plot cops out and Perrin saves the day by killing Slayer and disposing of the last Dreamspike. ＿|￣|○ I will cry if this happens because they set Androl up to be a hero.

 

 

A more loony guess:

6) I suspect the area in the dreamspike is out of phase with the rest of the pattern--i.e. it "phase shifts" everything in the dome. When Perrin and Hopper re-imagine themselves into being, I think they're tuning themselves to the out-of-phase area: they're intuitively using the "key" that Moridin mentioned in passing. Since this makes use of the "key" idea, it makes more sense than a vacuole situation of being "removed" from the pattern. This agrees with the dream protection that Slayer mentions. It also explains why the dreamspike only affects Traveling, since Traveling is the only weave that would require the location of a point inside the dome.

 

So how does something in TAR affect the real world?

The dreamspike affects the Pattern, which stretches across all worlds. Balefiring Rahvin in TAR, for example, affected the real world. Hence, the dreamspike's phase-shifting of a part of the Pattern should affect both the waking world and TAR.

 

To Travel from point A (inside the dreamspike) to B, you need to know both points' locations. Channelers just form an image in their head and the Pattern kind of plugs in the coordinates for them. The dreamspike, however, means the area is phase-shifted. In the waking world, people can't tune themselves to this phase like they can in TAR. And if you're out-of-phase with the area, then you're feeding the gateway weave a starting or ending location outside the Pattern. Hence, the gateway won't form: Androl's failed gateway didn't even get a vertical slash. This is where the key comes into play--the weave has to adjust for the oddball starting/ending location. And if anybody in Randland can figure out how to crack the key, it's probably Androl.

 

 

My explanation is full of holes, but I can't think of anything else that addresses the key issues and contradictions:

1) There's a dome in TAR but not the real world

2) Something in TAR affects the real world

3) Perrin experiences paralysis when walking through the TAR dome

4) The Aes Sedai don't have Perrin's problem when the dreamspike gets moved into the tower (i.e. becoming paralyzed)

5) Inability to Travel within the dome when you can Dreamwalk within the dome

6) That a "key" can be used to bypass the problem (and it sounds like a cryptology key since he implies multiple people can use it)

TLDR:

Post any dreamspike questions we can ask Brandon on Sunday in Cambridge.

[darth_hel]

Just kind of throwing it out there, is it possible Logain is in some sort of trouble in Arafel? Alanna rushed off up in that direction pretty quickly after possibly getting a letter from Verin. Kind of grasping probably, just trying to throw some ideas together and see what might hold.

[Sharaman]

Just kind of throwing it out there, is it possible Logain is in some sort of trouble in Arafel? Alanna rushed off up in that direction pretty quickly after possibly getting a letter from Verin. Kind of grasping probably, just trying to throw some ideas together and see what might hold.

Androl is a strange bird - a leather-worker who's been to truly weird places, knows how to shoot from horseback and actually knows about linking. I think he and

Pevara will link and bond.

Alanna has most likely rushed off to help defend Arafel against trollocs. We know zilch about Logain's location right now.

[brown_hound]

Although it was suspected, knowing (well, as good as knowing) that the BT is where the 13/13 conversion process is occuring makes me even more eager for Logain to tear it up. The way everyone is trapped there is, I agree, very creepy and tense. Seems like there is still plenty to heppen in AMoL.

 

EDIT: Surely a Forsaken has to be very directly overseeing this process? It makes no sense that RJ would lie when he crushed Taimandred, but what other explanation is there? The BT seems to be the heart of Dark channeler operations and I can't see it being left to 'high-ranking' darkfriends.

 

 

It's fairly clear from Moridin's revealing to Graendal of the two dreamspikes, and her use of one through Slayer/Isam/Luc, that the the troubles with gateways being weaved within the BT is that Moridin has his sneaky little fingers at play within the BT- with his spare. With so many Forsaken now dust, I feel Mazrim Taim is Moridin's pawn and is in good standing for one of the 'New Forsaken'. The BT is now going to be one of the DR's biggest headaches.

[Sharaman]

Well, LTT is the one man on the Lightside who can diagnose exactly why Gates won't open from /to the BT and if there's a rootkit to the D-Spike OS, he'll know about it, calling upon his experiences as a general in the War of Power.

He also has an easy way of confirming it via a TAR-shift to see the Dome.

[Shai-tan]

I have to wonder if the strength has to do with the Dark One's influence on them somehow. Like he can tweak their abilities, maybe not raising their max power but allowing them to achieve it a bit more quickly.

 

Makes sense, seeing how Rand channeled when he destroyed the Trollocs, perhaps he has the Light's alternative to channeling on Crystal Meth

[Jeangray]

Do we know that a dreamspike _has_ to be deployed in T'AR? Maybe Slayer only put it there because it is his place of power.

I also doubt that BT's dreamspike is as sloppily deployed as Slayer's. Even if it is in T'AR, it is probably heavily protected. Let's not forget that Ishydin is no slouch in T'AR and he has Landane and Moggy to help him. Also, for the things to be useful during the War of the Shadow, when there were many qualified dreamwalkers, there must be a way to guard them effectively.

 

Re: the question - I'd like to know if a large circle of channelers can reproduce the effect of a dreamspike or protect an area against Travelling in some other way if they know how to do it. Because let's be honest here, if the Shadow forces sensibly used even a fraction of opportunities that Travelling offers, forces of Light would have been toast long since.

[Sharaman]

Do we know that a dreamspike _has_ to be deployed in T'AR? Maybe Slayer only put it there because it is his place of power.

I also doubt that BT's dreamspike is as sloppily deployed as Slayer's. Even if it is in T'AR, it is probably heavily protected. Let's not forget that Ishydin is no slouch in T'AR and he has Landane and Moggy to help him. Also, for the things to be useful during the War of the Shadow, when there were many qualified dreamwalkers, there must be a way to guard them effectively.

 

Re: the question - I'd like to know if a large circle of channelers can reproduce the effect of a dreamspike or protect an area against Travelling in some other way if they know how to do it. Because let's be honest here, if the Shadow forces sensibly used even a fraction of opportunities that Travelling offers, forces of Light would have been toast long since.

 

I think the D-Spike can always be found in both TAR and real-world regardless of where it is deployed. It would have to be present in TAR since it prevents Gating without permission in any domain. Dreamers would have been deployed to guard the D-Spike once place.

I also suspect that Perrin- Hopper's break-in method was unknown in the AoL or impossible except for Wolves. In that case, once it was placed, it would be unapproachable except by people inside the dome or those who knew the key.

According to RJ (and Graendal in PoV) there are ways of warding against Travel -plural. The Dspike is just the most convenient.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Do we know that a dreamspike _has_ to be deployed in T'AR? Maybe Slayer only put it there because it is his place of power.

I also doubt that BT's dreamspike is as sloppily deployed as Slayer's. Even if it is in T'AR, it is probably heavily protected. Let's not forget that Ishydin is no slouch in T'AR and he has Landane and Moggy to help him. Also, for the things to be useful during the War of the Shadow, when there were many qualified dreamwalkers, there must be a way to guard them effectively.

 

Re: the question - I'd like to know if a large circle of channelers can reproduce the effect of a dreamspike or protect an area against Travelling in some other way if they know how to do it. Because let's be honest here, if the Shadow forces sensibly used even a fraction of opportunities that Travelling offers, forces of Light would have been toast long since.

 

to the dreamspike, I am not sure, we dont know much about it. But based on what it has done and its name, i would say it can only be deployed in TAR. It is called a dreamspike, i know thats a little thin, but we have only seen it in TAR and its name = dreaming, so yeah. But I dont know, I have a feeling we havent seen the end of the Dreamspikes.

 

the second question. That is a good one. However, re: the shadow taking advantage, gateways wouldnt really be that great. I would estimate 60-70% of the shadows power is shadowspawn, who cannot pass through gateways. however, I think that is not what you are talking about.

 

Are you saying, why hasnt the Forsaken just travelled witha bunch of DF's to kill everyone etc.?

 

That, I have no idea, I think that it can only be put down to the Shadow not playing the game like we think it is. Its not about killing everyone, or else the DO would have ordered the Forsaken to get together and kill Rand, Mat, Perrin. It would have been easy work for all 11 to smash up any resistance before it started. (not including aginor and balthamael who died before the others were released)

 

I think that the DO needs the last battle to happen. As RJ said, even if the DO "wins" there are different degrees which most end in a draw. I think that means that if the Last Battle doesnt happen and the DO wins before everything happens, he doesnt break free fully. Id say that the DO can only win fully if it happens in the final battle between him and the champion of Light. Like Rand is about to "expose" the world to the DO to seal him away again. Hard to explain, but im trying to say that if they had killed everyone beforehand, the DO would have done well, but not get out. Id say that at the "pinacle" of the Rand v DO, its Light win or Dark win.