Damodred. Mantear. Trakand.

[Moon Sedai]

From what I understand, Andoran noble houses pass the title of High Seat to a hereditary heir (High Seat Bob of house "XYZ" dies, his child/grandchild "Jane" becomes high seat of XYZ.")

 

But, Elayne becomes high seat of Trakand (instead of big brother Gawyn, who is the eldest heir). I guess that is because Elayne was heir to throne, and it looks better if the Queen is High Seat of her house as well as Queen. It helps establish the legitimacy of the claim to be Queen. This I understand.

 

What I don't understand is Galad.

 

Galad is the Mordrellen Mantear, Queen of Andor, High Seat of House Mantear.

 

In part of the Alliance to end the Andor/Cairhein war, Mordrellen married her daughter, Tigraine, to a scion of house Damodred, Taringail.

I understand political marriages. From a discussion in the books that the Cairheinian believe that Tigraine wed into Damodred, but Taringail wed into Trakand. (leaving the last name of the children of the marriages to be Damodred then Trakand).

What's going on here?

 

Presumably, until her sudden disappearance, Tigraine was expected to one day be high seat/Queen of Andor.

Thus, she'd expect her heirs to be high seats/heirs of Andor.

So her son, though not female, would be at least PART of house Mantear, instead of Damodred.

 

Galad is in a situation where is is part of two Andoran noble houses and not really recognized by either, despite his legitimate birth.

Is it possible that Tigraine/Taringail have something like a marriage contract for daughters to be house Mantear?

 

I can't see a possibility that Tigraine and Taringail had a daughter, let's call her "Sue" and her be "Sue Damodred, Daughter Heir of Andor," or "Sue Damodred, High Seat of House Mantear, Queen of Andor."

 

I think it is possible that one of the reasons Galad is so unbearably GOOD is that Galad is part of two [former royal]/noble houses with no recognition from either. He recognizes Morgase as his mother when he attacks Valda. He probably does not have much memory of his true mother.

 

I guess my question is WHY is Galad a Damodred instead of a Mantear? It is highly possible that had he been a Mantear, he would have been high seat of the house because he was the grandson of the previous High Seat. (I know mantear is still around, just not as big).

[Bob T Dwarf]

In dynastic societies, position, power, wealth, and prestige all go with the most politically powerful name.

 

Galad is both a Damodred and a Mantear by birth and a Trakand by adoption. However, being male, he can never succeed to the throne of Andor, but, as a Damodred, he could succeed to the throne of Cairhein.

 

Therefore it is most advantageous for him to style himself as Galadedrid Damodred.

[didymos]

I guess my question is WHY is Galad a Damodred instead of a Mantear? It is highly possible that had he been a Mantear, he would have been high seat of the house because he was the grandson of the previous High Seat. (I know mantear is still around, just not as big).

 

He simply uses the House name Damodred. He's still a Mantear (barring forfeiture or something). Just as Elayne counts as a Damodred and could claim the Sun Throne due to that ancestry and despite going by "Trakand". In fact, in Cairhien, she might officially be named Elayne Damodred if she takes the throne. It's happened in RL history. As to the High Seat of Mantear...who knows? Terms of the marriage contract, maybe. In the event of Tigraine's death, Galad's claim to the seat was nullified or whatever. Maybe he refused it, as he felt his true house was Trakand. BTW, had Gawyn not been born,Galad would have been First-Prince of the Sword.

[yoniy0]

It might be that he's Mogase's son by adoption. The good people of House Mantear might consider it a bit too much to allow him to be raised by her and still claim the title of High Seat. After all, though she was Queen, she shouldn't have meddled in internal matters of House Mantear, should she?

[didymos]

It might be that he's Mogase's son by adoption. The good people of House Mantear might consider it a bit too much to allow him to be raised by her and still claim the title of High Seat. After all, though she was Queen, she shouldn't have meddled in internal matters of House Mantear, should she?

 

Well, as stated, until Gawyn was born, he was, as any potential daughter's half-brother, the presumed First Prince of the Sword. That's not interference, but precedence. Post-Gawyn and Pre-dead Taringail: living with his father's household. As for post-Gawyn, post-dead Taringail: got me. For whatever reason, Galad was disqualified as heir to Mantear.

[WhiskyJack]

Weird that even Rand has genuine claim to Lion throne.

[Durinax]

Rand has no claim, Lion Throne has a special clause in it requiring you be a woman

[didymos]

Weird that even Rand has genuine claim to Lion throne.

 

Not unless he recently got Halima'ed he doesn't.

[WhiskyJack]

Rand has no claim, Lion Throne has a special clause in it requiring you be a woman

 

 

LOL. As proven by Rahvin, all those clauses are meaningless. There is first time for everything.

[Moon Sedai]

That all kind of makes sense. I know he was raised by Trakand, and that might have given Mantear issue had he tried to claim it.

But I just kinda feel that Galad's precarious position in Andoran politics helped drive him into the Children of Light.

He was "Super Good" to have recognition.

 

I just kinda think it's odd that Andor-raised Galad has a Cairhienian last name.

 

On a side note, I don't think he'd fit well in Cairhien. He's Tall, for one. He'd stick out, and get drawn into the Great Game beyond a level that he would find comfortable, due to his Lawful-goodness. I can't see Galad participating in a character assassination to further his own causes. I think the game would be a little too aggravating for him. But, he identifies with Cairhien by use of his father's last name.

 

Or maybe it is just that "Galadedrid Damodred" Sounds better than "Galadedrid Mantear" or "Galadedrid Trakand." Rolls off the tongue better- try saying the three names out loud.

[didymos]

Rand has no claim, Lion Throne has a special clause in it requiring you be a woman

 

 

LOL. As proven by Rahvin, all those clauses are meaningless. There is first time for everything.

 

That's not a legal claim then, now is it? That'd just be Rand saying "Screw the law. I'm King of Andor." Making a claim is a particular legal process, and that process excludes men. Sure he can redefine the law as well, but that won't change the fact that he had no legal right to the throne whatsoever prior to that. His "claim" only comes into existence at the moment the law changes. Which is to say, he currently has no claim.

[didymos]

That all kind of makes sense. I know he was raised by Trakand, and that might have given Mantear issue had he tried to claim it.

But I just kinda feel that Galad's precarious position in Andoran politics helped drive him into the Children of Light.

He was "Super Good" to have recognition.

 

His position wasn't precarious until his father died, and by all accounts he practically came out of the womb glowing with righteousness. And recognition is not what he wants. It's not in his "super good" character. Just look at the Valda thing: he had one interest and one interest only. Avenge Morgase. Do his best to see justice for her was done, even should it cost him his life. He pretty much expected to die even if he won, and he did not want to be Lord Captain Commander, nor had the notion even occurred to him. He only accepted out of duty and was still expecting to die for his actions, and he hoped they'd get over it and realize he shouldn't be LCC.

[Moon Sedai]

Rand has no claim, Lion Throne has a special clause in it requiring you be a woman

 

LOL. As proven by Rahvin, all those clauses are meaningless. There is first time for everything.

 

That's not a legal claim then, now is it? That'd just be Rand saying "Screw the law. I'm King of Andor." Making a claim is a particular legal process, and that process excludes men. Sure he can redefine the law as well, but that won't change the fact that he had no legal right to the throne whatsoever prior to that. His "claim" only comes into existence at the moment the law changes. Which is to say, he currently has no claim.

 

I think that Rand, having his *intimate* connection to Elayne, tried his best to keep Andor whole for Elayne. (the whole argument over Elayne's claim to the lion throne without rand is not my point here). I don't think rand would want to "screw the law" when he hopes to "screw the future queen."

[WhiskyJack]

Rand has no claim, Lion Throne has a special clause in it requiring you be a woman

 

 

LOL. As proven by Rahvin, all those clauses are meaningless. There is first time for everything.

 

That's not a legal claim then, now is it? That'd just be Rand saying "Screw the law. I'm King of Andor." Making a claim is a particular legal process, and that process excludes men. Sure he can redefine the law as well, but that won't change the fact that he had no legal right to the throne whatsoever prior to that. His "claim" only comes into existence at the moment the law changes. Which is to say, he currently has no claim.

 

 

He is son of Tigraine Mantear. It has it's own legality. Is there any law that says that Andor cannot have a King or it simply never had one?

[capuga]

Weird that even Rand has genuine claim to Lion throne.

 

Not unless he recently got Halima'ed he doesn't.

 

[Kaznen]

I think Galad does have memories of Tigrain Mantear. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a flashback to his last meeting with her he was being a mischievous little boy and was brought before his mother and she was having one of those days when she just couldn't deal with him on top of everything else going on.

 

Then she disappears and little Galad thinks she left because of what he did, so he decided to be the "bestest" little boy and she would come back. In time he spent so much time doing the right thing it became ingrained in him.

[didymos]

He is son of Tigraine Mantear.

 

And thus might have become, at most, First-Prince of the Sword had Galad died and there been a Mantear daughter. May have been able to become High Seat. However, having an Aiel father would have not gone very far with many people, I think, so both are rather doubtful. Hell, Taringail was still alive when Tigraine got Dragoned-up. I bet that'd be well-received.

 

Is there any law that says that Andor cannot have a King or it simply never had one?

 

Almost certainly, for the former. Why do you think other laws like always having the eldest daughter go to Tar Valon exist? To tie the throne, the future Queen, to the Tower. Why is the eldest living brother of the Queen always given the title First-Prince of the Sword? Why is it a husband can only ever be titled Prince Consort?

 

There is only one title for an heir in modern use: Daughter-Heir. At one time, there was alternate: Princess.

 

The lines of succession are defined in law, and they are restricted to females based on lines of descent connecting one to Ishara (typically invoked in the case of a capital 's' Succession), and in case of just plain death of a sitting Queen, the throne goes to the nearest female relative of said ex-Queen.

 

The actual throne was designed to only fit women, as was the Rose Crown (and that name is totally female-oriented).

 

Basically, the entire legal structure of the nation is based on the unquestioned assumption that Andor has a Queen. They've had a Queen and only a Queen for one thousand years, uninterrupted. It's the frakkin' law, dude. Break it or change it, Rand does not now have, and has never had, a legitimate claim (and isn't even a legitimate son of Tigraine to boot).

 

Now is "Andor has Queens and only Queens" or whatever actually written down somewhere? No clue. Probably, but irrelevant: historically, a whole hell of a lot of very binding law never got near pen and ink. If you choose to go all "Loophole!", fine by me, but you're arguing against a highly preponderant preponderance of evidence. I'll stick with Ockham's Razor, myself:

 

<soupnazi>No King for you!</soupnazi>

[yoniy0]

It's not Law, yet it IS a very old tradition, which by now holds the authority of law (same as what sometimes happen in the Tower).

When in doubt, search the WoT-Wiki.

[Moon Sedai]

I think Galad does have memories of Tigrain Mantear. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a flashback to his last meeting with her he was being a mischievous little boy and was brought before his mother and she was having one of those days when she just couldn't deal with him on top of everything else going on.

 

Then she disappears and little Galad thinks she left because of what he did, so he decided to be the "bestest" little boy and she would come back. In time he spent so much time doing the right thing it became ingrained in him.

I would ordinarily agree, but the WotWiki Timelinesays that Galad was born in 972, the year Tigraine disappeared. He was too tiny to remember "Mommy." [putting him at 28 in the series, btw, old enough he should not have been living with Morgase any more when Rand met the family].

That's not to say Tigraine's disappearance didn't scar the poor kid.

Also using the Wotwiki, and creative math with birthdates, Morgase took the throne and wed Taringail in 973, when Galad was 1.

Even if Galad was only 1 when Tigraine left, he still would have Mommy issues, I think.

Galad thus grew up with Morgase, for all intents and purposes, as his mother. Which is why he thinks of her as such.

Except everyone in the whole dang world knows he's not her son.

 

Think about this:

Your Mommy abandoned you as a newborn. Whether she disappeared, died, was kidnapped, or whatever, Mommy was gone and you grew up with a stepmother and your father. [i picture Taringail as just the kind of butthead that would tell Galad, 'It's your fault your Mother left.' Not proven, just speculation from what I understand of the man.]

I mean, Mommy left, there was a war about it in your home country, so your family secret, that mommy abandoned you, is known to everyone you know.

Because Mommy left, and it was Your Fault, you act SUPER GOOD in hopes that either she will love you enough to return or that your Stepmother will love you like one of her own children.[The impression I get from Morgase when she's a 'guest' of the Children is that she sees him as a stepson, not as one of her own.]

Your own position in court is tenuous at best, the birth of a baby brother means you won't inherit the position you should have; no First Prince for you. But you don't express jealousy, that would be bad.

Your baby sister is born, which means little, except that your stepmom has an heir. And she still doesn't love you that much. But you're not jealous. Jealousy is not good, and mommy won't return to a jealous little boy.

You love your family, even if you are an outsider in your own family.

When your dad dies, you are 12, and orphaned, and remain with your stepmom and half siblings. Because it is the right thing to do.

And you are painfully good, because the whole time, you hope to get attention, or that mommy will love you and return. Or that your Step mother will love you like her two actual children.

[didymos]

It's not Law, yet it IS a very old tradition, which by now holds the authority of law (same as what sometimes happen in the Tower).

When in doubt, search the WoT-Wiki.

 

Trouble is, being a fan-made wiki, it ain't entirely reliable. I've found stuff there that's flat out wrong or just speculation treated as fact many times. I suspect that ultimately came from the BWB (the WOT wiki's stuff about it is just pasted from Wikipedia, which you can learn from the revision history. That article is poorly sourced, but something very similar appears in the BWB), which has its own reliability issues (as the author of it admitted: she had to guess about some stuff, which is why it's got that weird in-world historian conceit going on. Neatly covers for any lore screw-ups). In any case, I again point to actual laws (i.e., daughter-to-the-tower, who can have what titles). It's at least law by virtue of having been implicitly incorporated into later law.

[didymos]

I would ordinarily agree, but the WotWiki Timelinesays that Galad was born in 972, the year Tigraine disappeared.

 

Love to know where they got that from. It ain't in the books (not explicitly anyway), and I can't find a birth year for him anywhere else.

[didymos]

And she still doesn't love you that much.

 

Depending on your meaning there, that's either wrong or guesswork. We know from her POVs that Morgase loved Galad as much as either of her natural children, and his regard for her and the fact that he has always called her "Mother" in the books certainly suggest that he knew it. We don't know when she started viewing him that way, but given who she is, I rather doubt it took until after Taringail's death or that she was ever cold and uncaring towards him. That's just not her way.

[yoniy0]

I agree that the relevant paragraph probably originated from BWB, but I suggest that its reliability issues don't apply here. This is a matter of current day politics, hardly something a Randlander historian might be confused about.

[Kaznen]

I don't remember it being in the BWB. But when Morgase was trying to wash away the shame of being with Valda she thought about how she gave Galad as much love and attention as she gave her kids, and how he needed it more then Gawyan and Elyane. And while I hear he is super awesome in ToM I always felt bad for him in the series because he had to be the most tramatized of all the characters, except maybe Tam al'Thor who developed Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome during the Blood Snow.

[didymos]

I agree that the relevant paragraph probably originated from BWB, but I suggest that its reliability issues don't apply here. This is a matter of current day politics, hardly something a Randlander historian might be confused about.

 

Uh, well, they don't actually exist. You just had someone pretending to be one to provide a neat excuse for any errors in the book. So, yeah, the reliability issues apply to everything in and derived from it. We have no general method for figuring out what in the book is correct, what in the book is a deliberately inserted error (which was also done), and what in the book was just plain made up because Patterson had been given the leeway to do so. We can only ever be confident about stuff confirmed in the novels or statements by RJ/BS.

 

So, the body of knowledge we might might expect your average hypothetical Randlandian historian to possess is completely irrelevant because there is no such thing. The argument that it is relevant strikes me as exceedingly bizarre: we're supposed to assume that because somebody with a decent education in Randland wouldn't make that mistake (in itself an unjustified assumption, given that it happens all the time in real life, even to historians), neither would the actual real world author of the actual real world book? What reason do we have to think the notes for "current day politics" in Randland in general, and Andoran law in particular, were any more complete than the notes on, say, the Nine Rods of Dominion? According to the BWB, they're actual rods (and, of course, instead of resulting from a deficiency in the notes, that may have been done on purpose). Or for thinking Patterson wasn't allowed to play around with any of the "current day politics" type stuff?