poor verin, question

[Demiandre]

They have to have a sign to recognize themselves when needed. When two have to meet, you have to be sure it is the good one you're about to talk to.

 

I stumbled across a possible foreshadowing, but I'm sure I'm just reading too much into words.

Moiraine's advice was in the front of his head. Trust no woman who wore the shawl on the day she died

 

That was Rand thinking about what Verin just said about the possibility of the Salidar Aes Sedai meeting him. He was thinking about her. And that happened just before Alanna bonded him. So. Could this be to indicate, under cover of a incongruous warning from Moiraine, that Verin was not to be trusted even the day she died? I strongly believe that Verin was honnest when speaking about the Black Ajah, but maybe she lied about Tomas, as Luckers seems to think. And me as well, for that matter. A bit odd that he shall die too, in my humble opinion.

It's hard to tell without the direct quote from Moiraine, but it seems more logical (and simple *waves the razor*) that Moi meant to not trust any woman that "wore the shawl" i.e. were Aes Sedai, on the day Moiraine died. To give any sort of veiled warning about the BA death and lieing even then, Moi would have to know of that oath, and the only reasonable way she would know this would be if she was BA - which we know for a fact that she wasn't - don't we?.

Oh, yes. But I was thinking about a foreshadowing, which doesn't imply a precise knowledge of the character, but the Author's sense of humor. Other incongruous sentences that could be foreshadowing : "Nynaeve won't be satisfied until she healed someone three days dead". From what we know, it is impossible de facto, but she could manage it. Even if she doesn't have the knowledge yet.

[Sharaman]

@ Didymos - Persuasive. But both Verin and Tomas are strongly driven by s sense of duty/ converts' zeal/ call it what you will. Verin has proved she can do very nasty things in pursuit of her life's mission.

 

So here's the alternative scenario. V does have several plans in progress. She wasn't intending to kill herself if she had managed an alternative release of the oaths and so, the decision to off herself was reluctant and hurried (not hasty but hurried). She may well ask Tomas to hang on and follow through while faking his own death and lie about it.

I guess this is a RAFO. If T appears again in the story line (even retrospectively as in, we learn what plans exactly V set in motion), we'll know. Else if he doesn't appear again, it doesn't matter.

[Luckers]

Another option is that Tomas really did die at the same time, but not the way Verin suggested--I maybe he pulls off some kind of suicide attack.

 

Maybe he climbed dragonmount.

[Demiandre]

Maybe he will have a mission like Verin. Gather Darkfriend Warder, tell them Verin sent him, that they have to go back to the White Tower, and since they maybe don't know Verin is dead, they will fall in the trap and all be executed by Egwene hehe! And Tomas will be executed too, because he asked it.

 

The Death Rage would be a bad end after all the talks about looking a way out. Even if a way out can be understood as a way to die. But he could accomplish some things after Verin's death. A follow up of her plans, other plans to set in motion, Accompany Mat to the Tower of Ghenjei, because Verin had knowledge to pass to Moiraine, or what else? She dedicated herself to the track of the Black Ajah. But also to the Dragon Reborn. So she has a double/triple agenda. And she also was one of the two person knowing the location of the Horn.

[FarShainMael]

Let's look at Verin's actual words about Tomas.. recalling that she is Aes Sedai, and therefore accustomed to playing games with the truth, even though not bound by the 3 Oaths.

 

'We made our farewells. He is spending his last hour with family.'

 

That sentence could be taken another way.. literally; meaning that's the last hour he will ever spend with family, because Verin has a mission for him, as Demi suggests.

 

Perhaps Verin has arranged matters so that the bond will dissolve peacefully on her death, sparing him the rage, but releasing him for that task.. or perhaps she has done a Moiraine and transferred the bond to someone else. Not sure who that would be.. conceivably, Alanna.

[Demiandre]

Or just release it, without transfer. I'm disappointed you didn't put a link to wikipedia^^

 

The way you read Verin's word is pretty good. I didn't took it that way

[FarShainMael]

Anything to oblige..

 

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Bonding#Releasing_the_bond

 

[Demiandre]

Thanks a lot. Great link! I've never crossed it before, and it change some things I thought false or unproven, and even tells me some things that can be used for a sweet theory

[FarShainMael]

Hmm, interesting. When you're ready, do let us know!

[dwn]

Regarding Tomas:

 

As a DF, Tomas swore the same oaths that Verin did--he simply wasn't compelled to follow them. If Tomas was truly seeking redemption I tend to think that he wouldn't betray those oaths. After all, 'the ends justify the means' is usually regarded in an evil-ish light. I'll actually be a bit disappointed if it turns out otherwise. IMO Tomas was with Verin until just before she met with Egwene. Upon failing to find the oath rod, Verin opened a gateway to send him back to his family to die.

 

 

Regarding Corianin Nedeal:

 

I've always taken Verin's actions regarding the notes to mean that Corianin discovered some rather dark uses for the dream ter'angreal (not that she was necessarily BA). Verin considered destroying them because they were nasty. She considered giving them to Egwene because they could be useful. She ultimately kept them secret because she didn't want to scare Egwene off T'A'R. Perhaps Egwene will find those notes now that Verin is dead.

 

-- dwn

[TheAngryDruid]

Regarding Tomas:

 

As a DF, Tomas swore the same oaths that Verin did--he simply wasn't compelled to follow them. If Tomas was truly seeking redemption I tend to think that he wouldn't betray those oaths. After all, 'the ends justify the means' is usually regarded in an evil-ish light. I'll actually be a bit disappointed if it turns out otherwise. IMO Tomas was with Verin until just before she met with Egwene. Upon failing to find the oath rod, Verin opened a gateway to send him back to his family to die.

 

 

This was my take. Didn't Verin say something about when a channeler takes the oaths the are all but unbreakable, in her chat with Egwene in tGS? I forget the wording, but always took it as you have. That Tomas wasn't bound the way Verin was (he could disclose if he chose before the hour of death), but that the consequences would be horrific, so he chose to die on his terms now, rather on the DO's later.

[Moon Sedai]

Man, I liked Verin. Her scene in tGS had me bawling.

[Ozzie_aiel]

I picked up on Verins lie, but I thought she may have simply studied the oath Rod, found out you can remove Oaths, and took one or more of them off.

 

 

 

I love the idea that Verin spent her time in the BA trying to undermine it and bring it down.

[Guest Phigment]

All of you seem to be a lot more trusting of Verin's comments about Tomas than I'm inclined to be.

 

Look at her first statement in the chapter about him: "He was a Darkfriend himself, child," Verin said. "Wanting a way out. Well, there really isn't a way out, not once the Great Lord has his claws in you. But there was a way to fight, to make up for a little bit of what you've done. I offered that chance to Tomas, and I believe he was quite grateful to me for it."

 

She lays it out pretty clearly. Tomas was a Darkfriend. There's no way out for Darkfriends, not really, and explicitly in regard to Tomas.

 

And, she says that she "believes" Tomas was grateful to her for the chance to fight back. Not that she's sure of it, not a simple statement that he was grateful, just an expressed belief.

 

Add to that Verin's established history of sneakiness and justified habitual distrust of almost everyone, along with her general ruthless efficiency...

 

I figure Tomas was never a candidate to get released from the warder bond, because Verin would never really trust him that far. She might believe that he's reformed, as much as she herself has, but she can't really know. And she won't risk her life's work on the chance that a known Darkfriend will stay on the right side of the line, so she's not going to release him, even if she could. It's too bad, but that's how things fall out. Tough luck for Tomas, but he's dying for a good reason.

 

Actually, that line about "He's spending his last hour with family" always seemed very carefully phrased, too. I think there's a reasonable chance that the "family" in question is a group of darkfriends Tomas knows about and the last hour he's spending involves a lot more sword use than most family gatherings, but that's speculation, not provable and not particularly important.

 

In the same way, I consider it highly likely that Verin has been influencing Tomas with either her compulsion weave, the warder bond, or both. It seems very convenient that the one double agent in the Black Ajah would happen to have a repentant darkfriend as her warder.

[yoniy0]

I've never given much thought to the interactions between Verin and Ingtar but knowing now that they are both Dark, I see their interactions in a new ... um ... light.

Right? Especially when he refuses to believe Barthanes's a Darkfriend, and she assures him that DF are found among the high as well as the low.

 

I probably missed something but how do we know that Tomas didn't take an oath to serve the DO?

He did--he was a darkfriend. He did not however take an a bound Oath upon a binder (the Oath Rod), thus him betraying his oath did not require the 'hour of death' issue that Verin betraying her Oath did. Thus Verin's suggestion that it did is very peculiar.

Well, the truth is we just don't know how the Shadow keeps its DF in line. Ingtar didn't swear on the OR as well, yet he lived multiple lives, and according to him he could never escape his oaths, try as he might. The only way out was to die when the Shadow wasn't looking (and I should mention that we don't actually know if he managed to escape the DO in death, but that's a different story). It could be that Tomas chose to let go when Verin reveals herself, since the Shadow would know what he did, then. And perhaps, they'll send enforcers after him (such as the SHv.5 that Carridin met).