What's up with Taim

[Bob T Dwarf]

Robert, you seem to be a fairly well educated and reasonably intelligent man. So, explain something to me...

 

How do you jump from, "Before we can consider anyone else, we first need to eliminate those who are proven to be in the palace.", to me insisting it could only have been one of those six? What convoluted logic leads you to the conclusion that I ever said it could only be them. All I said was that before we go jumping after any of the potentially endless people it could have been, it makes sense to eliminate those we can prove were there.

 

The "Who is we?" is entirely unspecified. It obviously refers to the two they see before them. How many more does it refer to as well? We don't know yet when those words are spoken. Subsequent events reveal that Semirhage, at the very least, had to have been active at that time as well. How many more? No way to tell.

 

Like the characters, you continue to take everything at face value, despite Jordan beating us all over the head for eleven books now with how unproductive that is.

[RobertAlexWillis]

First of all ... for Semirhage to have been released before Aginor and Balthamel, she would have had to have been bound closer to the "surface" than they were. Meaning she would have emerged with her body ravaged, as theirs were. She didn't, so she wasn't.

 

Second, I'm assuming you're basing that "proof" on the fact that Anath Dorje is Tuon's truthspeaker, and she is actually Semirhage. But Semirhage had been in that position for less than two years (Winter's Heart, What A Veil Hides) at the time Tuon entered Ebou Dar. That was in late winter, 1000 NE (probably early in the month of Saban, the third month of the year). The events at the Eye took place in spring of 998 NE, almost two full years earlier (in the month of Adar, the fifth month). Assuming that Semirhage was released within a few weeks after the events at the Eye, she would have plenty of time to go to Seanchan, and with a little judicious use of Compulsion or other "persuasion", get herself put in place as Tuon's truthspeaker. Tuon's POV (in the chapter refenced above) makes it plain that she was a last minute replacement, imposed from above. The sort of thing you would expect from a newly concealed Forsaken. And that puts her timeframe at "less than two years". So it is not necessary for Semirhage to have been free before the events at the Eye.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Again you make the assumption that Aginor and Balthamel just awoke, maybe even that day for all I know... and miraculously Traveled straight to the Eye.

 

Let's look at a few things for a moment.

 

A&B were closest to the world and had the best "view" of the intervening years. Does that mean that they had complete knowledge of everything? Certainly not.

 

The Eye was a pretty big secret. It didn't exist when they were sealed away. Over 3000 years, many people had stumbled upon the place the Green Man inhabited, but none of them had the least idea what the Eye was, or what it contained. The only ones who knew that were Someshta and the 100 AS who constructed it, filled it with the Horn, the Banner, and all the untainted saidin they could gather... and sacrificed themselves in that process.

 

In order to come up with the idea that something like the Eye existed would have taken very good detective work on their part. Beginning to figure out where it might be would have taken even more. That requires time. Time to gather the info. Time to process it and draw conclusions. Such information could not have come from Ishy. His knowledge is less complete than theirs. Had he known where the saidin and the Horn were, he would have retrieved and used them long since.

 

So, if they are newly woken when we meet them, where did they get all that time? Their circustances probably permitted them to have learned about The Green Man's place, but how did they get from that to the Eye and what it contained?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Their ability to "view" included the ability to "zoom in". And Moiraine knew the Eye was at the Green Man's place. How many others knew? Plus, the Nym were unique, and Aginor knew constructs better than anyone. If anyone could find Someshta in short order, it would be him.

 

In short, there is nothing in the text or outside comments that even suggest the other Forsaken were free. There are things in the text that are, at a bare minimum, suggestive that they weren't. So, what it boils down to, is we'll just have to agree to disagree. You're entitled to your wrong opinion. :D

[Thor]

Not to hijack the thread or anything, but I have always wondered; from where did Aginor and Balthamal know Mat?

 

They called him an old friend or acquaintance or something. Huh?

[Luckers]

Moiraine has stated that those that are deep in the Shadow can sense the Shadar Logoth taint, and we've seen the way they resonate with each other.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Thor -

 

The passage you're referring to reads:

"He guided us." The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope. Mat took a step back, eyes widening. "An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy. But he is not the one we seek," the green cloaked man finished...

 

How Mat could be thought of as, "an old friend, an old enemy," is just one of the unanswered mysteries of the series.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Robert -

 

We can even agree that my opinion is wrong, just as soon as you can demonstrate how many "some" is. I can demonstrate that some is NOT 2.

 

Dictionary.com defines "some" thusly: ( I've bolded the meanings most relevant to this discussion. )

some:

 

–adjective

1. being an undetermined or unspecified one: Some person may object.

2. (used with plural nouns) certain: Some days I stay home.

3. of a certain unspecified number, amount, degree, etc.: to some extent.

4. unspecified but considerable in number, amount, degree, etc.: We talked for some time. He was here some weeks.

5. Informal. of impressive or remarkable quality, consequence, extent, etc.: That was some storm.

–pronoun 6. certain persons, individuals, instances, etc., not specified: Some think he is dead.

7. an unspecified number, amount, etc., as distinguished from the rest or in addition: He paid a thousand dollars and then some.

–adverb 8. (used with numerals and with words expressing degree, extent, etc.) approximately; about: Some 300 were present.

9. Informal. to some degree or extent; somewhat: I like baseball some. She is feeling some better today.

10. Informal. to a great degree or extent; considerably: That's going some.

[Cybertrolloc]

The passage you're referring to reads: "He guided us..." How Mat could be thought of as' date=' "an old friend, an old enemy," is just one of the unanswered mysteries of the series.[/quote']

First, read the Question of the Week archive at wotmania. What RJ considers as what happened RE Forsaken waking up is there, along with who we see in tGH, etc...

 

Second, polish up that Bashere-dunnit theory ;)

 

Third, I think the quote above is a slight retconn, or a throwaway line that Jordan didn't decide to go with when he expanded the storyline and possibly history. At least I can't recall anything regarding Mordeith in AoL offhand. Anyway, Aginor doesn't refer to Mat but the SL taint on him and the dagger. (Oh, noticed you ignored it when Luckers brought it up, never mind then.)

[kruss2828]

Taim obviously has motives' date=' wheater that is because he is Chosen or he's compelled I don't know. He's had chances to kill Rand but hasn't, and then tries other ways? Most of the black tower is behind him but there are still those who follow the Dragon. I think we need to remember that the power does wierd things to men...like turn good people to Darkfriends.

[Simple Gleeman]

Again you make the assumption that Aginor and Balthamel just awoke' date=' maybe even that day for all I know... and miraculously Traveled straight to the Eye.

[/quote']

 

I find it highly doubtful that any Forsaken was free during a signifigant part book 1's timeline.

 

It is known that Ishmael was the most free of the Forsaken or closest to the surface of the Seal.

 

Based on that we can safely assume that if ANY other Forsaken are free, then so is Ishmael.

 

We have strong evidence that Ishmael was not entirely free when Padan Fain was searching Shadar Logath for the Emonds Fielders.

 

pg 716, The Eye of the World (paperback)

"Fain spoke the truth as he saw it," Moiraine said. "He could not lie to me, though he his much. His words. 'Ba'alzamon appeared like a flickering candel flame, vanishing and reappearing, never in the same place twice. His eyes seared the Myrddraal, and the fires of his mouth scourged us."

 

Taking that into account, Ishmael wasn't free during Shadar Logath events.

 

Then consider that after Whitebridge Rand and Mat were very thoroughly tracked. Mat's stupid dagger acting like a beacon to Myrddraal and all the Darkfriends. If Ishmael were free then, he'd certainly consider himself infinetly more capable of bringing Rand and Mat in himself instead of trying to pinpoint him with tel'aran'rhiod for his minions - especially after failure after failure - especially when Moiraine was absent.

 

So.. maybe during Caemlyn events Forsaken were finally "waking up', since there was only the one encounter with Fain, and that didn't leave much time for Fain to report back since they left through the Ways soon after.

[Bob T Dwarf]

First off, I didn't ignore Luckers' post. He merely stated a fact presented in the books. Since his post was accurate, there was no need to reference or reply to it.

 

Second, I don't have a Bashere dunnit theory. I have a hypothesis. To wit: If Bashere can be shown to have been placed by the author inside the palace in Caemlyn at the time of the murder, then he must be considered a serious suspect.

 

Third, I too suspect that much about how Mat developed as a charcter got changed from the original plan once the decision was made to expand the series beyond a trilogy.

 

That doesn't make Aginor pointing to Mat and then referencing, "an old friend, an old enemy.", any less mysterious. Since Mordeth hadn't been born when Aginor was sealed away, it's unlikely they knew one another. It's even less likely that Aginor was either friends or enemies with Mordeth's dagger. Since Mordeth hadn't been born yet, the evil of the hate he spawned couldn't have been manifest yet when Aginor was sealed away. So that evil can't be what he means is an old friend, an old enemy either. Like I said, an unsolved mystery.

[Thor]

That is true, Mordeth was only around during the 10 Nations, so that can't be it. :(

 

So what is the reason??

[Luckers]

An evil that resonates with the Shadow, and yet came into existence to fight it? And one that has been around for two thousand years.

 

Fulfills my standards for 'an old enemy, an old friend'.

 

Recall too that Aginor and Balthamel have been aware of the world around them, and the passage of time. Shadar Logoth has existed for a majority of their living memory...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Recall too that Aginor and Balthamel have been aware of the world around them, and the passage of time. Shadar Logoth has existed for a majority of their living memory...

 

Yes, but neither of them interacted with Shadar Logoth or Mordeth personally in any way, at any time before awakening.

 

When I initially read that passage, I thought that Aginor was referring to the Green Man. Lan had just asked if they were seeking the Green Man. Pointing at Mat seemed to be more of a sort of dramatic entrance. Involved as Aginor was with biology and the Power during the Age of Legends, it is possible, even likely that he knew Someshta, possibly even helped create him. I've always thought of the Green Man as the link which Aginor used to find the Eye.

 

Now, re-reading the passage, it does seem that Aginor is indicating that they followed Mat. And the only things we know of that the Forsaken could use to trace Mat are his ta'veren-ness and, at that time, the Shadar Logoth taint, neither of which seems to fit the "old thing, and old friend, an old enemy" description ...

 

Very, very, odd ... and I have no real explanation.

 

However, whatever the reason, whether it is the Shadar Logoth taint or something else, it explains how Aginor and Balthamel would be able to go essentially straight from wherever they were freed to the Eye, but not arrive ahead of Rand and co. They could track Mat. Since whatever method they used to track Mat could almost certainly be applied by the other Forsaken, and none of the others showed up, it's corrolary evidence that none of the others were out.

 

We can even agree that my opinion is wrong, just as soon as you can demonstrate how many "some" is.

 

The demonstration is in the context. When a word has multiple definitions (as almost all words do) then meaning in a particular instance is defined by usage. In this case, the succeeding sentences in which he refers only to himself, Balthamel, and Ishamael, provide the context with which to define "some" as 1)Ishamael, 2)Aginor, and 3)Balthamel.

[Cybertrolloc]

So everyone agrees, and it's just a misunderstanding? How boring...

 

I'm changing my stance to Aginor was really pointing at Bela when he delivers his off-the-cuff portentous line ;) "Ah, Bela, an old friend, an old enemy...at last we meet again, for the first time. You killed my father..."

 

I'll throw some points to Luckers last post too, though I find it a bit distasteful to have that level of supernatural stuff in the world when say channeling has a well developed "mechanics" to it. I mean in the sense that after some 7000 pages, there's still so much basic stuff that's arbitrarily unknown about how the world works.

 

Language isn't a problem for the Forsaken, they speak a more nuanced version of what's commonly used (dumb as that idea strikes us). I think even Lanfear mentioned that she was vaguely aware of the passage of time--the dream of a dream thing (even though she said it was a dreamless sleep for her)? Ag and Beth can get anywhere they want in the world near instantly, that's not a problem. All they really need is a 5 minute pep talk and some quick info about what's going on...

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't think being ta'veren has anything to do with how the Dark tracks any of the three.

 

Too many times throughout the books, we've seen the Dark's main protagonists desperate to find them and having no idea where they are.

 

Shaidar Haran is still killing off Carridin's family because Carridin has been unable to locate Rand as ordered.

 

Moridin now has all of the remaining Forsaken acting as bloodhounds to find Mat and Perrin because he has no idea where they are. The hopeful implication of that is that nobody currently with either Mat or Perrin is a DF whose reports are getting passed along to either Moridin or the DO. ( which, unfortuantely is not the same as saying they don't have any DFs planted on them )

 

I think ( and this is just a guess, so far ) that in Book 1, they were being tracked via their dreams. Since, either from Rand's deliberate action or as a side effect of Mat's Medallion, or Perrin's Wolfdreams, the three have acquired the ability to shield their dreams, they seem to have dropped off the DO Radar.

 

As far as A&B knowing exactly where they were, I think that may be as much the dagger as anything. Jordan has described the two evils as polar opposites that attract each other.

[Oregon]

I could be speaking utter nonsense, since my memory isn't so grand at the moment, but I seem to recall Moiraine almost jumping out of her skin at the sight of Mat and his goofy dagger. She was absolutely able to detect Mordeth's taint. I'm operating under the (probably safe) assumption that she was able to detect this taint because of her status as a Channeler. If this is correct, then I'd wager our two Forsaken were able to do exactly the same thing (given their greater strength and skill with the power when compared with Moiraine) - and probably at a greater distance.

[Luckers]

The Forsaken CAN track the three lads through their ta'verenism, but it is not easy, despite Moridin's attempts to imply that it is. Graendal herself states this directly to Moridin's face, and the fact that they do indeed fail to find Perrin and Mat proves this... although an argument can be made that they did, as attempts were made on both Mat's and Perrin's lives, though they seemed to be attempts of convenience, not plan.

 

Yes, but neither of them interacted with Shadar Logoth or Mordeth personally in any way, at any time before awakening.

 

Which isn't actually required for the statement to work. We know that those deep in the Shadow can sense the taint of Shadair Logoth, and we know that Aginor and Balthamel would have been able to sense that taint from their prison for two thousand years, long enough for them to grow familiar with the feel of it. It was the feel of it that they tracked. The friend/enemy comment refers to its nature as a like evil, but one whose soul purpose was originally opossing the Shadow. That dichotomy is not merely philosophical... Rand senses it in the two wounds, and in the taint on saidin and SL, and finally utilizes it in destroying the taint on saidin... it does not seem strange to me that the Forsaken would recognize that taint.

[Oregon]

The friend/enemy comment refers to its nature as a like evil, but one whose soul purpose was originally opossing the Shadow. That dichotomy is not merely philosophical... Rand senses it in the two wounds, and in the taint on saidin and SL, and finally utilizes it in destroying the taint on saidin.

 

Putting 'em together is evidently like combining something acid and something alkaline: you end up canceling both of them out.

 

Okay. That's a lame analogy, I admit.

 

Maybe like McCarthyism and Communism...? Blast, that's not right either. Maybe old Joseph McCarthy is analogous to Mordeth, but the U.S.S.R as the Dark One...? Not quite the right fit.

 

Blast. This post is getting stupider by the second. My apologies to all.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't have a problem with the Forsaken being able to detect the taint, or use it to track Mat. That seems entirely possible, likely in fact. I just don't see how "friend" ever enters the picture, in Aginor's relationship with Aridhol, Shadar Logoth, Mordeth, Mat, or the Shadar Logoth taint. The Shadow has always regarded Shadar Logoth as an enemy, and vice versa.

[Luckers]

Yet nevertheless they do resonate with each other. Alike and yet mutually exclusive.

 

You are question the nature of how something which is an enemy could also be a friend, yet is that not exactly the nature of the dichotomy that Aginor states openly? It is a friend in the sense that there is a similarity present... anyone can see it. Yet their purposes are utterly divulged. Did not the evil of Aridhol not arise from the Light using the Shadow's own methods against them... it is an evil modelled off the shadow, yet created for the purpose of fighting the shadow.

 

From a purely thematic point of view it not only works, but it works in a way that shows a keen insight into the nature of evil. Two evils, alike in nature yet utterly opposed in purpose. Look at the real world and tell me that such does not come to be... look at America, using the tactics of terrorists against them... alike in nature yet opposed in reality.

[Guest Majsju]

How did Aginor manage to sense the Shadar Logoth dagger in the eotw?

 

RJ:That has to do with the end of Winters Heart. How many of you have read it?

(everyone but one raising hand, well at least after asking who has not read it)

It’s an effect of resonance. The dagger is the same evil as the evil of Shadar Logoth. You can say it’s diametrically opposite to the taint, that’s the evil on saidin. Rand, in one point in Shadar Logoth feels it repulsing with each other. And especially in the wounds on his side. There is a resonance created. A positive and negative pulse of evil, you might say.

 

Me: So it doesn’t require actual channeling?

RJ: no, but you have to be close to it. It’s not something you can sense from a close distance use to track Padan Fain down.

 

http://p079.ezboard.com/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=3.topic

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm questioning why Aginor would call an enemy a friend. To use your example (which I do not wholly agree with) if America and the terrorists are alike and yet different, they're still not calling each other "friend". Something like "so similar, yet so different" would be a more accurate way to phrase the relationship. "Friend" is indicative of alleigance or loyalty, of intent, not similarity. Despite what I freely admit are the similarities that cause an eminently traceable resonance (none of which I challenge) between Aginor and the dagger, and Mat, while he is infected, the word "friend" simply doesn't seem to apply. Shadar Logoth, Mordeth, and everything associated with them has never been, in any way, a "friend" to the Shadow. Similar? Yes. Detectable? Certainly. "Friend"? Never.

 

If RJ says that Aginor regards the Mordeth/Shadar Logoth/Mashadar amalgamem and its effects as "an old friend", well, its his world ... it just doesn't seem to me to be the most accurate word in that situation.

[Luckers]

Not in this case. In this case i would suggest that it is implying a similarity, an attraction, which i find well within the realm of the word friend.

 

Thr stronger inference is destroyed by the continuation of the sentence. 'an old friend, an old enemy'. The second alters the first. It makes the first both stronger and weaker. A mockery of the word, yet an implication about its true nature. The two are alike--intrinsically so--yet opposed.