13x13 Trick

[Sharaman]

By "sort of channel" I didn't mean actively channel. But they can be linked to by channelers (as well as control trollocs via some form of linking). That's an "in-between ability" - normal non-channelers cannot be llnked to. I'm assuming since TP was used to create Fades that this Fade-power is linked to TP. Obviously all this is conjecture

But the 13x13 involves OP+ something that needs this fade ability..

 

Hence the weaves may be difficult to remove by using an inverse weave via simple OP in the same way that normal compulsion can be removed.

And the Lightside has nothing resembling an "anti-fade" - that is, a creature that can link to an OP channeler.

[fikkie77]

I don´t think anyone turned by the 13x13 trick can be healed, because I don´t believe them to be turned.

The ones that are suspected to be turned are said to feel ´wrong´ and having a soulless look in the eyes.

 

I believe that the 13x13 trick kills or destroys the soul and replaces it with something else (like the soul of one of the Myrddraal or the 13 combined). The memories remain, but the soul perishes, as do the (bodies of the) 13 Myrddraal. Because of this, it cannot be healed (the soul is either permanently destroyed or waiting for another rebirth).

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don´t think anyone turned by the 13x13 trick can be healed, because I don´t believe them to be turned.

The ones that are suspected to be turned are said to feel ´wrong´ and having a soulless look in the eyes.

 

I believe that the 13x13 trick kills or destroys the soul and replaces it with something else (like the soul of one of the Myrddraal or the 13 combined). The memories remain, but the soul perishes, as do the (bodies of the) 13 Myrddraal. Because of this, it cannot be healed (the soul is either permanently destroyed or waiting for another rebirth).

 

This has already been debunked. The reason for the thread (about healing) is this from RJ

 

INTERVIEW: Jul 19th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)

 

WEEK 15 QUESTION

When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so

.

[fikkie77]

The descriptions we get from the channelers that are probably turned seem to contradict this statement from Jordan. They don't seem to be just their 'mirrors'. Curious.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The descriptions we get from the channelers that are probably turned seem to contradict this statement from Jordan. They don't seem to be just their 'mirrors'. Curious.

 

Not necessarily. While I know what you are saying, and to an extent, agree, it is not really that contradictory. The description is not from a scientific point of view, or from the author, it is from a character.

 

He is only thinking what he thinks it looks like. Evil is often described as "soulless". Devoid of any "good" emotion, would look pretty "soulless".

 

The characters say that he looks and talks like Mezar, and Tarna looks and talks the same, its just that there is something wrong. They are not who they used to be.

 

Point being, descriptions from a characters PoV can be taken many ways, depending on how you look at it, and are not all that reliable.

 

Androl and Pevera would hardly be thinking "It looks like all their good emotion has been suppressed, and all the negative, dark emotion have been magnified."

 

The human reaction would be "Crap! They look like soulless bastards!"

 

He thinks of it as "shadow stuffed inside a body", which is one way of looking at it, since all the goodness is suppressed.

[fikkie77]

Well, that's something I could agree on.

 

Something this contradictory might happen if Brandon Sanderson would just have taken over finishing WOT, without Harriet being involved. Sanderson might make a mistake, Harriet lives in WOT and would certainly correct such a thing. Unless Jordan changed his mind, which I refuse to accept to be true.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, that's something I could agree of.

 

Something this contradictory might happen if Brandon Sanderson would just have taken over finishing WOT, without Harriet being involved. Sanderson might make a mistake, Harriet lives in WOT and would certainly correct such a thing. Unless Jordan changed his mind, which I refuse to accept to be true.

 

I am not saying you are wrong, it may be some kind of mistake, but I think that it can be explained. It is a good point you bring up though. I just thought it was a natural reaction to someone who has been turned, when nobody much knows that this is even possible. Or at least Pevera and Androl do not know about it. They would certainly think that their soul was destroyed, when their former friends suddenly change so dramatically.

[fikkie77]

RJ says something very important about this: it can be healed (no one can return to the Light from this without aid)! I doubt there will be chance of time to see that happen in aMoL.

 

By the way, is server time a little ahead in time (about 3 minutes)? Your post seems to have come from the future...

 

edit: 6 minutes. It was 18.41 CET when I posted my post, but it says to be posted at 18.47 CET.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Haha, that is strange! no idea what is happening there. DO messing with time?

 

I saw your post when I posted, heh. Could be the different time zones?

 

I think there may be a chance, with the events at the Black Tower. But you could be right

[Pinzarn]

Is the "13 x 13 = DF" a little incorrect?

 

I can't find the quote that RJ gave about the process, but if I remember it correctly, the 13 x 13 process brings the darker personality traits/cares/ambitions to the forefront. Sure someone that is darker is more likely to be a DF, but it is not an automatic process.

[yoniy0]

Except that each and every one who undergoes the process wakes up with 13 dread lords (and perhaps 13 myrddraal) around him. If they didn't swore to the DO right then and there, I doubt they would've been allowed to live.

[Pinzarn]

Except that each and every one who undergoes the process wakes up with 13 dread lords (and perhaps 13 myrddraal) around him. If they didn't swore to the DO right then and there, I doubt they would've been allowed to live.

 

That is kind of my point, it is not the 13 x 13 process that creates the DF, but the "newly twisted" person is coerced into swearing to the DO.

[Suttree]

Except that each and every one who undergoes the process wakes up with 13 dread lords (and perhaps 13 myrddraal) around him. If they didn't swore to the DO right then and there, I doubt they would've been allowed to live.

 

That is kind of my point, it is not the 13 x 13 process that creates the DF, but the "newly twisted" person is coerced into swearing to the DO.

 

 

 

Interview: Jul 19th, 2005

 

TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)

 

Week 15 Question

When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

Robert Jordan

They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

[Pinzarn]

Ok that was the quote I was looking for. Thanks Suttree.

 

I guess the 13x13 automatically makes you a minion of the DO if you are focibly turned to the Shadow. Without the part that you bolded, yes the person is evil, sick, and twisted, but that doesn't mean they are a DF. The bolded part confirms that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well I don't think it makes them Darkfriend as such, but with their new personality, they will seek the Shadow voluntarily, and when they "wakeup" the 13 dreadlords and Myrddraal would be there (or however many are left) and they would be conveniently there to recruit them "officially". So basically, they are are minion of shadow, but not Shadowspawn type thing., more like they want to become Darkfriends now, they are not compelled to serve the Shadow, they just want to, which makes them so dangerous.

[yoniy0]

Sheriam said that while non-channelers are protected from the Shadow unless they give themselves willingly, AS are vulnerable. This seems to imply that the process doesn't require their consent, not even their alter-selves'.

[baalsmistress]

Sheriam could easily have been referring to the "oath rod" effect that is only able to bind channellers to oaths. It's not a big leap to assume that if only a channeller can be bound to an oath by a weave, only a channeller can be reprogrammed in this way.

 

Hmmm, perhaps Verrin should have gotten herself stilled when she was unable to recover the oath rod.

[fikkie77]

It probably would have released her of all oaths, including those done to the Dark One. No Aes Sedai would even consider doing that, not even a desperate Black Ajah sister.

The Dark One only wouldn't have considered her to be released and would have chased her for treason.

[Nightstrike]

Who would have done it without knowing the reason for it first? Verin couldn't betray the DO until the hour of her death, so it would have been difficult. She could have burnt herself out, but then she might have died or something instead.

 

The Dark One only wouldn't have considered her to be released and would have chased her for treason.

Yes, that could have been really unpleasant for her. Now she died before the DO knew she had betrayed him. I think so, anyway.

[baalsmistress]

Dying to evade the "Lord of the Grave", to whom all the dead belong.

 

Seems a little...... self defeating

[Barid Bel Medar]

Dying to evade the "Lord of the Grave", to whom all the dead belong.

 

Seems a little...... self defeating

 

Heh, yeah, although I am not certain the DO would bother dredging up a soul from the afterlife just because they betrayed him. The point is a good one though. There is no escape from the DO.

[Luckers]

Dying to evade the "Lord of the Grave", to whom all the dead belong.

 

Seems a little...... self defeating

 

I asked Brandon whether Verin would face punishment from the Dark One beyond the grave, and he replied that it would depend on whether he could get his hands on her. This, along with other hints, suggests the Dark One's power over the dead is not as great as he would like people to believe.

[Suttree]

Dying to evade the "Lord of the Grave", to whom all the dead belong.

 

Seems a little...... self defeating

 

I asked Brandon whether Verin would face punishment from the Dark One beyond the grave, and he replied that it would depend on whether he could get his hands on her. This, along with other hints, suggests the Dark One's power over the dead is not as great as he would like people to believe.

 

Did we ever find out if it was just an illusion or if he actually had Kari al Thor? I remember quite a few theories on the topic back in the day but can't recall if there was ever a determination. Brandon's quote would seem to suggest not.

[TristanWebb]

Well, seeing as that was Ishy and not the DO himself, I would say it was a trick.

[yoniy0]

Why would a trick conform to Rand's desire to free her, rather than burn along with the Myrddraal? It's an early-bookism, I think.