The True Power

[yoniy0]

Can anyone help with this?

Sorry, I can't. I share mikael's confusion at your assertion.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

If you give me a better idea of where you mean, I'll look it up in my PDF copies, or if you can wait until I'm not in class and have more time.

 

EDIT: I think I know what quote you mean, though he doesn't mention the TP, I just don't have the concentration available right now to pinpoint and look up where that was.

[Sentinel78]

If you give me a better idea of where you mean, I'll look it up in my PDF copies, or if you can wait until I'm not in class and have more time.

 

EDIT: I think I know what quote you mean, though he doesn't mention the TP, I just don't have the concentration available right now to pinpoint and look up where that was.

 

I think you're talking about sha'rah, whereby Moridin draws parallels between Rand and the Fisher King. Moridin states that a winning strategy in sha'rah (i.e., the war versus the Light and Shadow) is moving the Fisher behind a square of your color on the opposite side of the board, or alternatively check-mating him by leaving him no choice but to switch to your color.

 

The latter is essentially what happened when Rand channeled the TP. Moridin forced Rand to draw on the TP of his own volition because the alternative was murdering Min and being taken to Shayol Ghul. In other words, Rand was forced to switch to Moridin's 'color', which was actually manifested literally via the dark aura.

 

So, Moridin never explicitly established a strategy of getting Rand to draw on the TP, but he's been waging psychological warfare on Rand to make him desperate enough to reach the black-void where the TP can be sensed and to draw on it. BS stated this would have consequences that linger from Rand's TP-usage, which I personally suspect is vulnerability to Shaidar Haran.

[Lisa Campbell]

Also another thought on sensing the TP, didn't the gholam say he could sense it? Sometime when Sammael was visiting with Shaido WOs...

[Duskfire]

Also another thought on sensing the TP, didn't the gholam say he could sense it? Sometime when Sammael was visiting with Shaido WOs...

 

Yup it can feel it indeed, although it was from Moridin, not Sammael (nitpicking!) Which suggests there are ways.

[Lisa Campbell]

Moridin and who? I always figured that was Graendal doing what she had to for her alliance with Sammael.

 

Cyndane (Moridin alliance) doesn't flaunt herself the way Maisia did. I also think that Cyndane could be with the Seafolk wavemistresses and that serving one of them (who is a DF) is her punishment from Moridin/DO (not unlike Shiane and crew). As I recall that identity was supposed to be an AS I'd never heard of (Mylen?), could have come from Caemlyn with the Seafolk who left to go to their election etc.

 

Could be a way for Harine to triumph and become head honcho of the Seafolk as per Min's viewing in Cairhein in The Bargain or whatever that chapter was called.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

@Sentinel78 Yes, that was the one I was thinking of, though I did a general search for all Moridin conversations to be safe. Here is that solo discussion, just be aware that these are from my PDF copies, and the scanning process used to translate them is far from perfect.

 

...Moridin had always favored sha’rah. Only nine people living even

remembered the game. He had been a master of it. Much more complex than tcheranor

no’ri. The first object was capture of the Fisher. Only then did the game truly begin...

 

...The Fisher held his attention, baiting him. Several pieces had varying moves, but only

the Fisher’s attributes altered according to where it stood; on a white square, weak in

attack yet agile and far-ranging in escape; on black, strong in attack but slow and

vulnerable. When masters played, the Fisher changed sides many times before the end.

The green-and-red goal-row that surrounded the playing surface could be threatened by

any piece, but only the Fisher could move onto it. Not that he was safe, even there; the

Fisher was never safe. When the Fisher was yours, you tried to move him to a square of

your color behind your opponent’s end of the board. That was victory, the easiest way,

but not the only one. When your opponent held the Fisher, you attempted to leave him no

choice for the Fisher but to move onto your color. Anywhere at all along the goal-row

would do; holding the Fisher could be more dangerous than not. Of course, there was a

third path to victory in sha’rah, if you took it before letting yourself be trapped. The

game always degenerated in a bloody melee, then, victory coming only with complete

annihilation of your enemy. He had tried that, once, in desperation, but the attempt had

failed. Painfully.

 

...Perhaps the Fisher

did come from some dim remnant of a memory of Rand al’Thor, the shadow of a shadow.

It did not matter. He realized he was laughing, and made no effort to stop. On the board,

the Fisher stood waiting, but in the greater game, al’Thor moved already to his wishes.

And soon, now... It was very hard to lose a game when you played both sides of the

board. Moridin laughed so hard that tears rolled down his face, but he was not aware of

them.

 

That is the closest look we get at Moridin's intentions. If you want, I can provide all the instructions he gave to the other Chosen, though that's mostly just "he must be captured, do not kill him, do not hurt him, etc."

 

@YouMayCallMeElci Providing I read your post correctly, I doubt it. The Aes Sedai serving the Seafolk was at the Silver Swan when the now Mistress of the Ships asked for someone to fulfill the bargain, and she (being a Brown) decided it would be a wonderful opportunity to study them and agreed to become a teacher. Besides, Cyndane's punishment is the Cor'souvra, you don't really need anything more beyond that.

[Lisa Campbell]

The Cor'souvra is the means by which Moridin retains control of both Cyndane and Moghedian. It can be considered as part of their punishment (also have to inlcude vacuole etc.)

[Lisa Campbell]

Also, Cyndane being from Caemlyn was part of my point. How easy to assume an identity during the transition of sisters that has been going on. There are mentions of comings and goings of AS at the Silver Swan in Elayne POVs.

[Aquarius]

Of course, there was a

third path to victory in sha’rah, if you took it before letting yourself be trapped. The

game always degenerated in a bloody melee, then, victory coming only with complete

annihilation of your enemy. He had tried that, once, in desperation, but the attempt had

failed. Painfully.

He never explains what is that third way, does he ?

[Rasko]

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

Other people can't feel you embracing it, or using it, like the One Power.

 

He says that they can't feel you using it, etc. like the One Power, not that there isn't necessarily another way to detect it (as I suggest below).

 

That is, can someone already holding the True Power sense another using it?

RJ: No. Not by any method we've seen yet.

 

Clearly, even if he hadn't intended on its detectability in the beginning, he was leaving the possibility open that there MAY be a way to detect it, that we don't yet know of. Much like the new weave for using animal spies that uses the TP.

 

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

RJ: No one can tell if you're using the True Power except the Dark One, of course

 

Except the Dark One. Okay, that's pretty clear, but when you are using the TP, you are "connected" to the DO right? Much like you can use the TP to use animals for spies, there very well could be a way to use the TP to communicate somehow with the DO to "see" someone who is channeling the TP.

 

I think Graendal is mistaken. RJ has said it enough for it to be clear. It is either a mistake in the text or from Graendal.

 

Why would Graendal say this unless she has tried it and seen for herself that it's possible? I guess it could be an assumption on her part, but it seems like she would hesitate to make such a claim unless she knows either from experience or second-hand knowledge. We can assume she has been in Morry's presence since she gained her new found abilities, so she would not only have a chance to attempt detecting TP channeling, but she certainly would want to know if Morry was channeling it in her presence.

 

So if has been in his presence since her new abilities were gained, I think it's safe to assume she's tried (and succeeded) in detecting TP usage.

 

What about the Demandred POV where Mordy uses the TP to kill a rat during a Choosen get together? It was clearly shown that he couldn't sense Mordy's channeling. This is either a error in the text or a plot reversal by RJ.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

You're right, I always assumed it to be like checkers, total annihilation, but that isn't exactly what he says... Does anyone know much of the game Sha'ra was derived from (I have a document on it, but haven't ever bothered/been able to make myself understand it...)? If so, are there three ways to victory as mentioned above?

 

@YouMayCallMeElci nvm then, I have no idea what you're getting at and no wish to babble randomly as I try to

 

EDIT: Sorry, Rasko posted while I was still looking over mine. For what it's worth, here is a quote from Moridin (as he stalks Samael and Greandal in tCoS) on that note, if it hasn't already been brought up here.

 

The True Power, drawn directly from the Great Lord, could neither be seen nor detected except by who wielded it.

[Sentinel78]

Of course, there was a

third path to victory in sha’rah, if you took it before letting yourself be trapped. The

game always degenerated in a bloody melee, then, victory coming only with complete

annihilation of your enemy. He had tried that, once, in desperation, but the attempt had

failed. Painfully.

He never explains what is that third way, does he ?

 

The 'third path' to victory is total war. Moridin tried this during the War of Power, and it failed when LTT sealed him up along with the other Forsaken during his raid on Shayol Ghul.

 

Look at the current circumstances. Moridin has been trying to win the Last Battle by manipulating Rand (i.e., the Fisher). However, in Veins of Gold, Rand finally switched back (permanently I hope) to the Light's side, and can no longer said to be on Moridin's color.

 

Moridin has wasted absolutely no time. He realized he failed, and what happened right after that? The Trolloc hordes have been unleashed as we saw at the end of the Prologue. Think of the timing --- the last Chapter of tGS is Rand having his revelation, the last Prologue POV is the Trolloc hordes advancing, and Chapter 1 is Rand coming down off of Dragonmount. In other words, as in the Age of Legends, Moridin has now realized that the Fisher/Rand will not be turned to the Shadow, and that the only path to victory is total annihilation of the Light's forces. Moridin must have sensed this through his special link to Rand, or perhaps even inferred it from the huge Power-draw from the CK before Rand blew up the CK.

 

I'm going to be VERY interested for the first chapter involving Moridin in ToM...

[yoniy0]

Moridin has wasted absolutely no time.

That's a VERY interesting interpretation of the line of events, and I'll be very curious to see whether it holds over the next book. My guess, though, is that Moridin still has a surprise up his sleeve, and that the trolloc attacks are just means by which he plans to get Rand into the right place (as in, leave your opponent no other option but to move the Fisher to a slot of your color behind his lines).

[Lynchgrinch]

Of course, there was a

third path to victory in sha’rah, if you took it before letting yourself be trapped. The

game always degenerated in a bloody melee, then, victory coming only with complete

annihilation of your enemy. He had tried that, once, in desperation, but the attempt had

failed. Painfully.

He never explains what is that third way, does he ?

 

The 'third path' to victory is total war. Moridin tried this during the War of Power, and it failed when LTT sealed him up along with the other Forsaken during his raid on Shayol Ghul.

 

Look at the current circumstances. Moridin has been trying to win the Last Battle by manipulating Rand (i.e., the Fisher). However, in Veins of Gold, Rand finally switched back (permanently I hope) to the Light's side, and can no longer said to be on Moridin's color.

 

Moridin has wasted absolutely no time. He realized he failed, and what happened right after that? The Trolloc hordes have been unleashed as we saw at the end of the Prologue. Think of the timing --- the last Chapter of tGS is Rand having his revelation, the last Prologue POV is the Trolloc hordes advancing, and Chapter 1 is Rand coming down off of Dragonmount. In other words, as in the Age of Legends, Moridin has now realized that the Fisher/Rand will not be turned to the Shadow, and that the only path to victory is total annihilation of the Light's forces. Moridin must have sensed this through his special link to Rand, or perhaps even inferred it from the huge Power-draw from the CK before Rand blew up the CK.

 

I'm going to be VERY interested for the first chapter involving Moridin in ToM...

 

 

Hmmmmm, i'm loving this interpretation of how things are.....it always amazes me how deep into the quotes people look for answers, but this one makes perfect sence to me, nicely done!

[KefkaPalazzo]

Of course, there was a

third path to victory in sha’rah, if you took it before letting yourself be trapped. The

game always degenerated in a bloody melee, then, victory coming only with complete

annihilation of your enemy. He had tried that, once, in desperation, but the attempt had

failed. Painfully.

He never explains what is that third way, does he ?

 

The 'third path' to victory is total war. Moridin tried this during the War of Power, and it failed when LTT sealed him up along with the other Forsaken during his raid on Shayol Ghul.

 

 

I took that line to mean his attack on Rand in TDR. You know, the one that got him killed.

 

As far as the access to the TP, I believe that they all have ACCESS to it, and they technically have permission to use it, but I see it like a police officer's gun. S/He is allowed to use it at any time, but the officer damn well better have a REALLY good reason for it, or face some serious consequences. (fired, criminal charges) In keeping with this analogy, Moridin is like the cop who is very close friends with the police chief.

 

I say this because it makes no sense for the person to need to gate to Shayol Ghul and ask permission to use the TP. Moridin only uses it to the exclusion of the OP, and the DO recognizes that Moridin is very competent, learning from his mistakes, so the DO lets him go. Moggy thinks that Moridin's (over)use of the TP is just because Ishamael/Moridin has lost his marbles a long time ago. If one needs access to the TP, they need it NOW. If they are in a position to gate to SG, they obviously don't need the TP to begin with.

 

Moghedien in particular implies that she DOES have access to the TP. (or did, before the mindtrap, not too clear on that) She knows the basics of how it works, what it can and can't do, and the consequences of its use. When she meets Moridin and notices the saa, she talks down to him, as if to say, "I can do that, too." However, she is reserving its use for an absolute emergency.

 

If Moggy, with her tumultuous love affair with catastrophic failure, has been granted its use, I think it's safe to assume that the others have, too. (possible exception of Mesaana, Moridin and the DO are PISSED, we don't know what they did to her) Moggy thinks to herself that the OP is good enough for her, and that it takes an unstable mind to use it like the OP.

 

Graendal is in the DO and Moridin's favor. Therefore, she can get away with more TP use.

[Sentinel78]

Chpt 25 from Crown of Sword's, Moggy's POV:

 

... among the living, only the Chosen knew how to tap the True Power—the Power that came from the Dark One—and few were fool enough to except in direst need ...

 

... the True Power was denied her, of course—that could be drawn only with the Great Lord's blessing—but the Source tantalized, though the glow just beyond sight seemed somehow odd. She still did not consider it...

 

Chpt 13 from Winter's Heart:

 

Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black speck floated across Moridin's blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly. He himself had never touched the True Power except at need. Great need. Of course, only Moridin had that privilege now, since his ... anointing.

 

Only Moridin (and apparently now Graendal) can access the TP. The Dark One has withdrawn his permission from everyone else (that we know of). Also, Moggy implies that special knowledge is involved in terms of 'how' the TP is accessed, even when permission is granted. Me thinks it involves a trip to the Pit of Doom, unless you happen to have your soul merged with someone else who has permission.

[Grig]

Moghedien in particular implies that she DOES have access to the TP. (or did, before the mindtrap, not too clear on that) She knows the basics of how it works, what it can and can't do, and the consequences of its use. When she meets Moridin and notices the saa, she talks down to him, as if to say, "I can do that, too." However, she is reserving its use for an absolute emergency.

 

This was before Moggy knew Moridin was Nae'blis. It was heavily implied that once a Nae'blis was anointed, the TP would be denied everyone else (as in Sentinel78's quote about the anointing). Prior to the anointing, all indications imply that all the Forsaken could use the TP (which is what Moggy thought was still the case in the situation you cite). Post-anointing, Graendal appears to be a very special case with her being able to use the TP at all.

[DottieGirl]

 

EDIT: Sorry, Rasko posted while I was still looking over mine. For what it's worth, here is a quote from Moridin (as he stalks Samael and Greandal in tCoS) on that note, if it hasn't already been brought up here.

 

The True Power, drawn directly from the Great Lord, could neither be seen nor detected except by who wielded it.

As much as I hate to say it, I think it is probably a BrS mistake, not unlike Graendal calling Shai'tan the Dark One in her thoughts instead of the Great Lord (perhaps purposeful, but I think a mistake). Not that it would be entirely his fault, as the editors should catch such things and correct them, but now they will either need to admit the mistake and fix it in subsequent print runs or retcon it in some way. We'll see what they choose to do.

 

Note that this isn't intended as a criticism...even RJ himself got details wrong which also slipped past the editors, then admitted it. These things happen.