Some possible obscure questions Ive had for a long time

[The Fisher King]

1 The First of Mayene and Rhuarc - What happened during their ''First Meeting'' and what is the exact nature of their ''relationship''??? (Father/Daughter - metaphorically?)

 

2 Who freed Mazrim Taim?

 

3 Who sent the Gray Men after Fain in Book 4?

 

4 When did ''Oredith'' and Pedron Niall actually meet and why did as brilliant a man as the Great Captain believe a slimey weasel like Fain??? ... Or was Fain lying to Dain about Niall?

 

5 Who ordered the hit on Niall?

 

6 Did SH *Definitely* ''Rape'' Mesaana?

 

7 Did Cadsuane Sedai ever actually SPECIFY to the Dragon Reborn what the actual ''Flaw'' in Callandor IS??? (If not, WHY not?)

 

8 How did Mazrim Taim get the Seal he gifted Rand with?

 

9 Did Myrelle and Lan sleep together? Does Nynaeve know? If so, WHY did Lan do that? Why did Myrelle?

 

10 Does Nynaeve NOW/CURRENTLY hold Lan's Bond?

 

11 Are Nynaeve and Elayne ''Actual'' Aes Sedai?

 

12 Why does Luc hate Perrin and Rand so much??? I used to think it was Slayer's morphing influence, but we see later in the series that Luc is still very much Luc when he is Luc.

 

13 Whatever it is that is so ''Special'' about Merrilin's knives - does Thom himself know the full story about it?

 

14 Where IS the Fat Little Man angreal??? (I know I asked in the Taim Thread above)... Does Taim have it?

 

15 What is the specific nature of whatever might be in Rodel's head courtesy of Graendal's Compulsion.

 

16 One that Ive REALLY WONDERED about: What in the HECK was/is ''The White's (ajah) 'Mad' Plan''???

 

17 Why exactly IS the Two River's district such a treasure trove of girls super fueled with the Power???

 

18 Do we know at all if ANY of Elaida's late-series insanity had ANYTHING to do with being brushed by the contagious Fain?

 

 

 

... Well, those are just a few of the ones Ive been wanting to ask for a LONG time but have been to scared to - I'll probably add more, lol :)

 

 

 

Fish

[Byzantine279]

I dont have quotes but...

 

1 It happened off camera, i believe, and whatever ended up happening he sees her as a daughter now (and she sees him as a father figure).

 

2 This one is up for debate.

 

3 I would assume one of the forsaken who was mad he flipped, but thats just a guess.

 

4 They really did, he believed him for the same reason that let Mordith destroy Aridhol, the evil that consumed him makes people trust him and believe him and take his advice no matter how bad (basically, it can corrupt even the purest soul).

 

5 No idea.

 

6 Yes.

 

7 She said what it caused, it is known to have been a manufacturing flaw, as for why she didn't say what it was: I don't think she knew.

 

8 No idea.

 

9 Yes, No, she does not, Lan was compulsed through the Warder bond, and Myrelle thought it would help him.

 

10 Nope.

 

11 It depends who you ask, they have not sworn on the oath rod or taken the test, but they have the force of will needed to get other aes sedai in control, so its a bit of a toss up.

 

12 We know the 13X13 brings out the evil in someone, we can only assume whatever happened to create Slayer twisted him so he hated Rand, and Perrin is a wolfbrother, something Slayer would naturally hate.

 

13 No clue.

 

14 Plenty of idea, no one is sure.

 

15 Whatever it is is gone before it happened, apparently, other than that it was likely a weave that would cause him to undermine and harm Rand in some way (through min, most likely).

 

16 Not-a-clue.

 

17 It was explained as "The Old Blood" basically when people who can channel have kids they are more likely to be able to channel, thus in the old blood channeling is more common (something like 3%)

 

18 Not for certain, but it is highly likely that Fain went Mordith on her.

[moroten]

1 The First of Mayene and Rhuarc - What happened during their ''First Meeting'' and what is the exact nature of their ''relationship''??? (Father/Daughter - metaphorically?)

 

- Believed he spanked her judging by Sulin's comment in later books.

 

2 Who freed Mazrim Taim?

 

- Was he ever captured?

 

3 Who sent the Gray Men after Fain in Book 4?

 

- Good question, but he universally hated, could be any.

 

4 When did ''Oredith'' and Pedron Niall actually meet and why did as brilliant a man as the Great Captain believe a slimey weasel like Fain??? ... Or was Fain lying to Dain about Niall?

 

- An ability of Mordeiths.

 

5 Who ordered the hit on Niall?

 

- No clue

 

6 Did SH *Definitely* ''Rape'' Mesaana?

 

- Yes

 

7 Did Cadsuane Sedai ever actually SPECIFY to the Dragon Reborn what the actual ''Flaw'' in Callandor IS??? (If not, WHY not?)

 

- She did mention the buffer, she didnt go into very great detail but enough so that Rand could understand.

 

8 How did Mazrim Taim get the Seal he gifted Rand with?

 

- A farmer gave it to him, atleast thats how he told it.

 

9 Did Myrelle and Lan sleep together? Does Nynaeve know? If so, WHY did Lan do that? Why did Myrelle?

 

- Yes

 

10 Does Nynaeve NOW/CURRENTLY hold Lan's Bond?

 

- Havnt met Myrelle yet.

 

11 Are Nynaeve and Elayne ''Actual'' Aes Sedai?

 

- No, havnt taken the oaths.

 

12 Why does Luc hate Perrin and Rand so much??? I used to think it was Slayer's morphing influence, but we see later in the series that Luc is still very much Luc when he is Luc.

 

- Dont remember Luc ever thinking of Rand.

 

13 Whatever it is that is so ''Special'' about Merrilin's knives - does Thom himself know the full story about it?

 

- Might be power-wrought, dunno though.

 

14 Where IS the Fat Little Man angreal??? (I know I asked in the Taim Thread above)... Does Taim have it?

 

- Seriously doubt Taim has it, dont know when he would have had the time to look through any belonings in that fight. Most likely an aes sedai has that as a memory(we saw an aes sedai trying to steal Egwene's serpent ring).

 

15 What is the specific nature of whatever might be in Rodel's head courtesy of Graendal's Compulsion.

 

- Might be anything, dont think it will have any kind of major role to play though.

 

16 One that Ive REALLY WONDERED about: What in the HECK was/is ''The White's (ajah) 'Mad' Plan''???

 

- Sleeping with men who could channel in order to stop culling the ability to channel from the race of men.

 

17 Why exactly IS the Two River's district such a treasure trove of girls super fueled with the Power???

 

- Been an area secluded from the world, little blending of blood.

 

18 Do we know at all if ANY of Elaida's late-series insanity had ANYTHING to do with being brushed by the contagious Fain?

 

- Fain might have done something to her but I dont think he would have given himself the time to do it, he craves Rand and only Rand, doesnt serve the shadow. Elaidas insanity can be explained by her own actions.

 

 

 

... Well, those are just a few of the ones Ive been wanting to ask for a LONG time but have been to scared to - I'll probably add more, lol :)

 

 

 

Fish

 

Did my best.

[The Fisher King]

Thanks soooo much to Torn Shadow and Mortren so far! ... A Few Thoughts:

 

Isn't what Myrelle did to ''help'' Lan kinda/sorta ''rape''?

 

Speaking of rape, how do we know for SURE that Valda raped Morgase Trakand?

 

Yes, Mazrim told Rand that a ''farmer'' 'gave' it to him...but, isn't Taim sorta a LIAR??? How do we know he was telling the truth?

 

Ok, so Pedrin and Padan DID meet? Was it onscreen?

 

Finally...

 

16 One that Ive REALLY WONDERED about: What in the HECK was/is ''The White's (ajah) 'Mad' Plan''???

 

- Sleeping with men who could channel in order to stop culling the ability to channel from the race of men.

 

WHAAAA??? ... Ok, I'm a lil slow sometimes, but: this is a joke - right???!

 

 

 

Fish

[Byzantine279]

Thanks soooo much to Torn Shadow and Mortren so far! ... A Few Thoughts:

 

Isn't what Myrelle did to ''help'' Lan kinda/sorta ''rape''?

 

-Sort of, but it is believed to be the only way (or one of them) to save a warder who's aes sedai has died. So she did it against his will, but to save his life, as she saw it.

 

Speaking of rape, how do we know for SURE that Valda raped Morgase Trakand?

 

-It cut off before that part, but it was clearly insinuated, not to mention he admitted it to Galad before their fight.

 

Yes, Mazrim told Rand that a ''farmer'' 'gave' it to him...but, isn't Taim sorta a LIAR??? How do we know he was telling the truth?

 

-We don't, so we really dont have any idea.

 

Ok, so Pedrin and Padan DID meet? Was it onscreen?

 

-No idea.

 

Finally...

 

16 One that Ive REALLY WONDERED about: What in the HECK was/is ''The White's (ajah) 'Mad' Plan''???

 

- Sleeping with men who could channel in order to stop culling the ability to channel from the race of men.

 

WHAAAA??? ... Ok, I'm a lil slow sometimes, but: this is a joke - right???!

 

-No, that was completely accurate, the White ajah represents logic, and it is logical that if gentling men who can channel decreases the population of channelers, than having children with them will likely result in higher amounts of children who can channel. (and it IS accurate to an extent, though the numbers didn't fall because the ability was being culled, but rather because the aes sedai isolated themselves and thus got less people to come to them).

[Demiandre]

No joke. In the Two Rivers, the genetic pole is "pure" in lack of a better word. They don't breed much with outsider. As Moiraine puts it, the Old Blood of Manetheren is strong in the Two Rivers. The White have been thinking that gentling all men who could channel cut off the ability in later generations, and that breeding between Aes Sedai and male chanellers, bearing their children, would make more Aes Sedai in the long run. Which is silly, as all men that can be taught remain in the genetic pool. It is Aes Sedai stupidity to believe that the others are responsible. Look at the later books. The Aes Sedai way of recruitment is the problem. And the fact that they seldom marry.

 

About Myrelle, I don't think it is a rape. Myrelle know that bedding a Warder suffering from death induced rage can help him. And I don't believe she could be able to rape him. It's Lan guys. Not Morgase... (Valda say Galad she was "the best ride he ever had". He raped her)

 

And Torn Shadow, Fish was speaking of Rodel Ituralde's compulsion, not Ramshalan the silly. I believe his Compulsion was about following the King's orders to the last word. As Graendal was forging those orders she could sow chaos where/when she wanted.

 

And for me, Nynaeve and Elayne are Aes Sedai. AoL type Aes Sedai, but nonetheless. The third age Aes Sedai are not really AS IMO (yes, I fully agree with Luckers essay on the Aes Sedainess and their stupidity)

[Demiandre]

To add something, Niall and Fain met in the Prologue of the Shadow Rising (or tDR?). He calls himself Ordeith, woodworm.

[Sharaman]

Hope the following helps a little more. Good questions.

1 The First of Mayene and Rhuarc - What happened during their ''First Meeting'' and what is the exact nature of their ''relationship''??? (Father/Daughter - metaphorically?)

The spanking is strongly implied in Sulin's comment.

 

2 Who freed Mazrim Taim?

RAFO - we only have the official versions as received by Suian,

 

3 Who sent the Gray Men after Fain in Book 4?

It has to be a major DF - dunno (and may not ever be clarified since he's on a kill on sight list)

 

4 When did ''Oredith'' and Pedron Niall actually meet and why did as brilliant a man as the Great Captain believe a slimey weasel like Fain??? ... Or was Fain lying to Dain about Niall?

Yes they met - Mordeth can convince people, he did it to Elaida and Turak as well.

 

5 Who ordered the hit on Niall?

RAFO - it may even have been Valda (in concert with Asunawa) acting to further his own ambitions. That was the impression I got.

 

6 Did SH *Definitely* ''Rape'' Mesaana?

He stripped her and removed his own armour before quietly suggesting Alviarin leave the room. He did rape Moghedien (among other things) according to RJ. So, almost certainly. Moridin seemed to think so.

 

7 Did Cadsuane Sedai ever actually SPECIFY to the Dragon Reborn what the actual ''Flaw'' in Callandor IS??? (If not, WHY not?)

She did, as much as she knew.

 

8 How did Mazrim Taim get the Seal he gifted Rand with?

RAFO (may never be clarified) - We only have Taim's version.

 

9 Did Myrelle and Lan sleep together? Does Nynaeve know? If so, WHY did Lan do that? Why did Myrelle?

Yes. Yes, Nyn knows - he told her when they met on the boat in Ebou Dar. Myrelle's modus operandi in rescuing warders involves getting intimate. Why wouldn't Lan sleep with her? She's hot and he likes mature women. He'd also given up on Nyn as per his brief message to Rand at the Carhein Docks.

 

10 Does Nynaeve NOW/CURRENTLY hold Lan's Bond?

No - she intends to coerce Myrelle into handing it over when they meet. Myrelle is currently leading the Salidar delegation to the BT and hence AWOL.

 

11 Are Nynaeve and Elayne ''Actual'' Aes Sedai?

They haven't taken the oaths.

 

12 Why does Luc hate Perrin and Rand so much??? I used to think it was Slayer's morphing influence, but we see later in the series that Luc is still very much Luc when he is Luc.

 

Some twist in the merging of souls perhaps. Luc dislikes his nephew (and Isam dislikes his cousin). They didn't hit it off when Luc met Perrin and Isam tried to kill Perrin. Slayer likes killing wolves - Perrin is close enough to being a wolf.

 

13 Whatever it is that is so ''Special'' about Merrilin's knives - does Thom himself know the full story about it?

RAFO - they're special. Definitely power-wrought but there's probably something more if you read the EotW confrontation with the Fade. RJ made two confusingly different statements about that incident and then "clarified" that both were true.

 

14 Where IS the Fat Little Man angreal??? (I know I asked in the Taim Thread above)... Does Taim have it?

RAFO - nobody knows.

 

15 What is the specific nature of whatever might be in Rodel's head courtesy of Graendal's Compulsion.

RAFO -

 

16 One that Ive REALLY WONDERED about: What in the HECK was/is ''The White's (ajah) 'Mad' Plan''???

Already clarified

 

17 Why exactly IS the Two River's district such a treasure trove of girls super fueled with the Power???

Already clarified

18 Do we know at all if ANY of Elaida's late-series insanity had ANYTHING to do with being brushed by the contagious Fain?

He did pass on some degree of suspicion and paranoia according to RJ.

[The Fisher King]

Hope the following helps a little more. Good questions.

1 The First of Mayene and Rhuarc - What happened during their ''First Meeting'' and what is the exact nature of their ''relationship''??? (Father/Daughter - metaphorically?)

The spanking is strongly implied in Sulin's comment.

 

2 Who freed Mazrim Taim?

RAFO - we only have the official versions as received by Suian,

 

3 Who sent the Gray Men after Fain in Book 4?

It has to be a major DF - dunno (and may not ever be clarified since he's on a kill on sight list)

 

4 When did ''Oredith'' and Pedron Niall actually meet and why did as brilliant a man as the Great Captain believe a slimey weasel like Fain??? ... Or was Fain lying to Dain about Niall?

Yes they met - Mordeth can convince people, he did it to Elaida and Turak as well.

 

5 Who ordered the hit on Niall?

RAFO - it may even have been Valda (in concert with Asunawa) acting to further his own ambitions. That was the impression I got.

 

6 Did SH *Definitely* ''Rape'' Mesaana?

He stripped her and removed his own armour before quietly suggesting Alviarin leave the room. He did rape Moghedien (among other things) according to RJ. So, almost certainly. Moridin seemed to think so.

 

7 Did Cadsuane Sedai ever actually SPECIFY to the Dragon Reborn what the actual ''Flaw'' in Callandor IS??? (If not, WHY not?)

She did, as much as she knew.

 

8 How did Mazrim Taim get the Seal he gifted Rand with?

RAFO (may never be clarified) - We only have Taim's version.

 

9 Did Myrelle and Lan sleep together? Does Nynaeve know? If so, WHY did Lan do that? Why did Myrelle?

Yes. Yes, Nyn knows - he told her when they met on the boat in Ebou Dar. Myrelle's modus operandi in rescuing warders involves getting intimate. Why wouldn't Lan sleep with her? She's hot and he likes mature women. He'd also given up on Nyn as per his brief message to Rand at the Carhein Docks.

 

10 Does Nynaeve NOW/CURRENTLY hold Lan's Bond?

No - she intends to coerce Myrelle into handing it over when they meet. Myrelle is currently leading the Salidar delegation to the BT and hence AWOL.

 

11 Are Nynaeve and Elayne ''Actual'' Aes Sedai?

They haven't taken the oaths.

 

12 Why does Luc hate Perrin and Rand so much??? I used to think it was Slayer's morphing influence, but we see later in the series that Luc is still very much Luc when he is Luc.

 

Some twist in the merging of souls perhaps. Luc dislikes his nephew (and Isam dislikes his cousin). They didn't hit it off when Luc met Perrin and Isam tried to kill Perrin. Slayer likes killing wolves - Perrin is close enough to being a wolf.

 

13 Whatever it is that is so ''Special'' about Merrilin's knives - does Thom himself know the full story about it?

RAFO - they're special. Definitely power-wrought but there's probably something more if you read the EotW confrontation with the Fade. RJ made two confusingly different statements about that incident and then "clarified" that both were true.

 

14 Where IS the Fat Little Man angreal??? (I know I asked in the Taim Thread above)... Does Taim have it?

RAFO - nobody knows.

 

15 What is the specific nature of whatever might be in Rodel's head courtesy of Graendal's Compulsion.

RAFO -

 

16 One that Ive REALLY WONDERED about: What in the HECK was/is ''The White's (ajah) 'Mad' Plan''???

Already clarified

 

17 Why exactly IS the Two River's district such a treasure trove of girls super fueled with the Power???

Already clarified

18 Do we know at all if ANY of Elaida's late-series insanity had ANYTHING to do with being brushed by the contagious Fain?

He did pass on some degree of suspicion and paranoia according to RJ.

 

Thanks a whole very lot Sharaman and Demiandre - ESPECIALLy for the REF of the Fain/Niall meeting.

 

Sharaman...I tend to think you are probably correct in that the idiot Valda got Jedi Mind-Tricked by the MUCH more intelligent Ansuwana into ordering the Hit on Pedron.

 

 

One thing maybe a bit disturbing to consider: Wouldn't the White's ''Plan'' almost certainly be seen as TREASON (a very sad and nast word, lol) against the White Tower by like almost EVERY other Aes Sedai???

 

 

 

Fish

[Owayn The Traveller]

Berelain and Rhurc are darkfriends. Rhuarc was telling her to stop farting around or Rand might send her away thus losing her position of influence

[The Fisher King]

Berelain and Rhurc are darkfriends. Rhuarc was telling her to stop farting around or Rand might send her away thus losing her position of influence

 

ShagNasty :(

 

 

Fish

[Owayn The Traveller]

I don't understand Fish.

[Luckers]

2 Who freed Mazrim Taim?

 

I believe the sisters sent out to capture him let him go. You can read why here: Taim's 'Escape', Joiya's 'Lies', and the Borderland 'Aes Sedai'

[The Fisher King]

2 Who freed Mazrim Taim?

 

I believe the sisters sent out to capture him let him go. You can read why here: Taim's 'Escape', Joiya's 'Lies', and the Borderland 'Aes Sedai'

 

Thanks, Luckers!!! - I actually remember THAT one now and, boy, was it a MONSTER, LoL!!! - (But very good though).

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

I don't understand Fish.

 

LoL, no worries, OTT: ''ShagNasty'' just refers to the unfortunate place my mind went when it tried to follow the unpleasant insinuations you (hopefully tongue-in-cheek) offered considering Berelain and Rhuarc ;)

 

 

Fish

[Demiandre]

The White mad plan is not really treason. It is a possible solution against a dire problem the Aes Sedai are facing. Cads states the same in New Spring. And other Aes Sedai too. It is considered mad because of what it imply. I can't imagine Aes Sedai bedding male chaneller. I even believe that most Aes Sedai are still virgin...

 

In fact, it is as good a plan as I have ever heard in the mouth of an Aes Sedai. But they discovered in Salidar that allowing testing for two-years-older-than-Nynaeve girls is a good way to find more novices.

[Luckers]

The White mad plan is not really treason. It is a possible solution against a dire problem the Aes Sedai are facing. Cads states the same in New Spring. And other Aes Sedai too. It is considered mad because of what it imply. I can't imagine Aes Sedai bedding male chaneller. I even believe that most Aes Sedai are still virgin...

 

In fact, it is as good a plan as I have ever heard in the mouth of an Aes Sedai. But they discovered in Salidar that allowing testing for two-years-older-than-Nynaeve girls is a good way to find more novices

 

Indeed, whilst channelers not breeding (and probably more significantly not inter-breeding) has caused a decline in the number of prospective channelers in the population, there are still alot--one percent of even conservative population estimates means well over two hundred thousand channelers in the Westlands alone.

[Sharaman]

That 1% estimate (I know it was RJ's) doesn't fit with the numbers he gives of Aiel channelers visavis general population

Unless we assume vastly more men can learn to channel (not spark) than women

We know that the Aiel claim to find every woman channeler learner/ sparker.

All the Shaido channelers taken together = about 500 (Dumai's Wells, Malden estimates)

If that's 0.5%, the total Shaido clan = 100,000, which is absurd since they had more warriors than that (about 150K Shaido went to Carhein IIRC,)

Even in the most militarised societies, the warrior to civvy ratio is unlikely to be over 20% (more like 5-10% is common - Prussia, Israel, Sparta) and it would suggest an overall population of 750,000 to 1 million. In that case, the female channeler: pop ratio is closer to 0.05 per cent.

[Luckers]

That 1% estimate (I know it was RJ's) doesn't fit with the numbers he gives of Aiel channelers visavis general population

Unless we assume vastly more men can learn to channel (not spark) than women

We know that the Aiel claim to find every woman channeler learner/ sparker.

All the Shaido channelers taken together = about 500 (Dumai's Wells, Malden estimates)

If that's 0.5%, the total Shaido clan = 100,000, which is absurd since they had more warriors than that (about 150K Shaido went to Carhein IIRC,)

Even in the most militarised societies, the warrior to civvy ratio is unlikely to be over 20% (more like 5-10% is common - Prussia, Israel, Sparta) and it would suggest an overall population of 750,000 to 1 million. In that case, the female channeler: pop ratio is closer to 0.05 per cent.

 

Firstly, recall that the Shaido's numbers were bolstered by the Bortherless. Quite significantly. We get more reliable population estimates near Malden when sept numbers and warrior ratios are referenced.

 

That being said the answer is fairly simple--Whatever they might like to think, the Wise One's don't get every girl who with the potential to learn, and the ratio of sparker to learner is dramatic. (which is spoken of by the Seanchan anyway).

[The Fisher King]

That 1% estimate (I know it was RJ's) doesn't fit with the numbers he gives of Aiel channelers visavis general population

Unless we assume vastly more men can learn to channel (not spark) than women

We know that the Aiel claim to find every woman channeler learner/ sparker.

All the Shaido channelers taken together = about 500 (Dumai's Wells, Malden estimates)

If that's 0.5%, the total Shaido clan = 100,000, which is absurd since they had more warriors than that (about 150K Shaido went to Carhein IIRC,)

Even in the most militarised societies, the warrior to civvy ratio is unlikely to be over 20% (more like 5-10% is common - Prussia, Israel, Sparta) and it would suggest an overall population of 750,000 to 1 million. In that case, the female channeler: pop ratio is closer to 0.05 per cent.

 

As the series went on it became obvious and accepted that early on RJ overestimated his own percentages on things (like the 1% channelers thing).

 

He was an author, not God, nor a mathmetician ;)

 

 

 

Fish

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I think that the ONLY girls in the Aiel society who get taught to channel are the sparkers, unless the learners accidentally spark and get wrongly recognized as sparkers.

 

I don't think that the Aiel know that there ARE such denominations as learners and sparkers.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think that the ONLY girls in the Aiel society who get taught to channel are the sparkers, unless the learners accidentally spark and get wrongly recognized as sparkers.

 

I don't think that the Aiel know that there ARE such denominations as learners and sparkers.

 

Nar, Aiel "get every girl that can learn to channel".

 

Spark or not, they get them.

 

Egwene comments on it in tSR.

[OptimusPrime]

Yeah isnt it right that a learners strength can be felt even f they havent learned? Isnt Egwene a learner, and Nynaeve a sparker?

[Owayn The Traveller]

Egwene is a sparker just she was got to early enough.

[Demiandre]

I suppose that the high death rate of the maiden explain more or less the difference between the rario RJ gave us and what we see. And did you count the apprentices in your counts?

 

And also, we know the Shaido took all the Wise Ones that could channel they had. But for the other clans, there maybe are more WO than with the Shaido.

 

Remember also Dumai's Wells. A lot of Wise Obes died there. Some factor that don't really change the result of the count, but must be taken into account.