The Big Unnoticed Thing

[didymos]

Ishamael doesn't care about weapons.

 

Except for the times when he does care. Like that spear. Think it inflicted some sort of significant wound on someone or other...

[Mik]

Ishamael doesn't care about weapons.

 

Except for the times when he does care. Like that spear...

"Exceptio probat regulam"

The excpetion proves the rule. This is the only time we see Ishamael wielding any type of weapon. What would you have RJ write for that scene?

 

"Ishamael laughed at our young hero and his useless heron-marked piece of junk as he slowly choked him in weaves of the one True Power.

The last thing the Dragon Reborn saw as the Darkness slowly took over, was the Seanchan soundly defeating the Heroes of the Horn as Lighting stabbed down from the Heavens and crashed home on his friends. Perrin with one hand still clutching the torn Banner of the Dragon and Mat cradling the Horn of Valere both lifeless in the mud. He thought of Egwene and tried to say her name, but he had no breath left in him. As all faded to Darkness, the last thing he heard was "I have won again, Lews Therin"...."

THE END.

 

The sword was the only weapon Rand knew how to use. Ishamael didn't -want- Rand dead; he wanted the Dragon alive and blinded. Ishamael wants Rand off balance and insecure. He wants to control and shape him, so that Shai'tan can truly break free on the last day. He doesn't want to -literally- kill that chance and win just this one battle. He has a war to win. The bigger picture is important. And at the time of that fight, it was still all about planting seeds of doubt about what and who Rand is, who is true friends are, who to trust. A blinded Dragon is what Ishamael wants.

 

You should reverse your question; -why use a staff when he never uses a weapon anywhere else-?

Because if Ishamael truly wanted to kill Rand, my example of events would have made more sense.

 

...Think it inflicted some sort of significant wound on someone or other...

I'm sure that if the Roman soldier who wounded Jesus in the side would have used a Mobile Phone to wound Jesus on his foot, we would have seen a different scene at the end of TGH.

RJ used a quazillion references to Folklore, Mythology and Religion. This is just one of those times.

And in this specific scene RJ's link to the specific wound Jesus recieves is more then obvious.

 

For you to use this specific paralel to a religious aspect of Rand, this one time exception -in all the books- as proof that Ishamael/ Moridin just loves a good sword-fight, is a mistake I think.

 

I hope you'd agree with me now that I've explained my pov on the matter.

 

Cheers,

Mik

[OptimusPrime]

I think the BUT could be something to do with Taim's reluctance/refusal to teach Asha'man how to use swords or weapons other than the Power. Rand ordered this during one of his visits to the farm (which happened during books 4-6) as a backup in case an Asha'man found himself unable to channel. Taim scoffed at the idea. I assume therefore that once Rand left, Taim didn't bother (I can't remember any mention of Rand training up the Asha'man with him either, but maybe some training has been undertaken by eg Bashere/Lan etc).

 

This could become important as a tactic to defeat the darkfriend Asha'man. I've always thought that the stedding that Perrin,Egwene and Elyas used in tEotW would become relavent again - maybe good asha'man vs bad asha'man happens near there, with the goodies winning in a swordfight. Or perhaps the ter'angreal from Far Madding can be reproduced over an Asha'man army - cue slaughter of bad Asha'man by army of farmers!

 

The second bit of my theory is, admittedly, a bit weak, but I do think the first point could be useful.

 

What do you think?

 

I think Taim didnt teach them the sword because he is Moridin and he doesnt know how to wield one

The only argument I have to counter that Idea is that i think Taim was going around claiming to be TDR while Moridin was still alive in his earlier incarnation. ..

 

Ok I think you asked for it lol

 

Taim was Taim before Ishamael died. Whether or not he was a Darkfriend prior to that I dont know, but when Taim proclaimed himself as the Dragon he was still himself, acting either on his own ability to channel or the Shadows orders, or something else.

 

Then Ishamael dies, and between books 4 and 6 the Dark One catches his soul and keeps hold of it, waiting for a suitable body. The Dark One then summoned Demandred and tells him to bring Taim to Shayol Ghul, alive. Demandred does so. The Dark One then removes Taims soul from his body and puts Ishamaels in its place. So Ishamael, now with the name of Moridin, is posing as Mazrim Taim, but he his actually using Taims body to do so.

 

Now, there is the thing about the different faces. People have a habit of reading this theory, especially this bit, and then saying "Erm, but what about the different faces." After reading this bit. So here it is.

 

Its a True Power disguise of course, the main clue being that nobody can tell. We got a hint that something was different about Taims features straight away from Bashere, and then there is the inconsistency in Taims height. In LoC Rand notes Taim to be of average height, and in Winters Heart prologue Elayne notes that Taim is nearly as tall as Rand. Big difference, between two people who should be able to make reasonable comparisons between Rands height and someone elses. It is a True Power disguise, so nobody else can feel that something is being channeled. And yet, because Taim has survived physical contact, it can be deduced that a True Power disguise actually changes the flesh. It is not an Illusion. It actually changes the appearance, and the first and foremost thing, of course, would be that the sa'a dont show up through because Taims eyes are among the things that have been altered-"Taim" has tilted eyes, Moridin doesnt. Moridin walking around under this disguise would explain why he had the sa'a so early, as noted by whichever Forsaken it was, cant remember.

 

Yada yada the link and the flashing faces and that. We have been told several times that the True Power cannot be sensed by another channeler. This means that whatever causes Rand to see Moridins face, he sees the unaltered version, Taims actual face, not the disguise that we know as "Taim the M'Hael." To clarify:

 

-Moridin uses Taims original, unaltered features. This is the one Rand met at Shadar Logoth, and the one Rand sees in the flashing images when he channels saidin, the face that the other Forsaken see at their meetings. Taim no longer exists, this is why they never mention or think of him, Taim is gone and his body now belongs to Moridin. It is well known among the Chosen.

 

-The guy we know as Taim, that face is an altered version of the original. The reason Rand is not privy to seeing this face in the flashing images when he channels, that is because only the True Power wielder is aware of their use. So whatever happens, Rand was never going to see the disguise... But then I think he did, in TGS when he channeled the True Power. Ever since Rand identified Moridin as the man from Shadar Logoth, he referenced him as that every single time he saw a non-Mat-or-Perrin in his vision. And then when he channeled the True Power it said he saw "a face" yada yada. I think that, due to the merge, Rand and Moridin are becoming one True Power user, I think Rand had access to the True Power from the link, and that when Rand channels the True Power he will be aware of Moridins weaves as well as his own because in that sense, Rand is becoming Moridin and vice versa. So in short, I think the connection and its effects on both men make it so Rand WILL see Moridins disguise in his mind, but only if Rand himself channels the True Power.

 

EDIT: Moridin notes that he had been exclusively using the True Power. This means the Darkfriend Ashaman are taught saidin weaves by Demandred, and so Demandred teaches in "Taims private classes" which gives Moridin chance to get away, and then those Darkfriend Ashaman and any skilled Light-loyal channelers would do the day to day teachings. The more Darkfriend teachers, the more of a tab Moridin can keep on teh Light getting so many full Ashaman-Logain has already mentioned there was a problem here.

 

Theres more but I dont want to take over the thread with it, Ive spouted all this in a few places now lol

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Oh... and isn't it funny that Bashere comes up with the name Asha'man? If you consider that an AshanDarei is a sword-spear, Mandarb and Manshima mean 'Sword' & 'Blade'?

Also recall that Ishamael promised Lews Therin way way back in the prologue of TEotW that 'he would make men kneel and worship the name they gave him to revile him'.

 

I think it's funny "Taim" (Moridin) calles himself M'hael (Leader).

Because when you combine Asha'man (Sword/ Blade; making men into weapons) and M'hael, you get Asha'm'hael (BladeMaster or SwordLeader).

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

Asha'man means Guardian not blade...

[capuga]

I think the BUT could be something to do with Taim's reluctance/refusal to teach Asha'man how to use swords or weapons other than the Power. Rand ordered this during one of his visits to the farm (which happened during books 4-6) as a backup in case an Asha'man found himself unable to channel. Taim scoffed at the idea. I assume therefore that once Rand left, Taim didn't bother (I can't remember any mention of Rand training up the Asha'man with him either, but maybe some training has been undertaken by eg Bashere/Lan etc).

 

This could become important as a tactic to defeat the darkfriend Asha'man. I've always thought that the stedding that Perrin,Egwene and Elyas used in tEotW would become relavent again - maybe good asha'man vs bad asha'man happens near there, with the goodies winning in a swordfight. Or perhaps the ter'angreal from Far Madding can be reproduced over an Asha'man army - cue slaughter of bad Asha'man by army of farmers!

 

The second bit of my theory is, admittedly, a bit weak, but I do think the first point could be useful.

 

What do you think?

 

I think Taim didnt teach them the sword because he is Moridin and he doesnt know how to wield one

The only argument I have to counter that Idea is that i think Taim was going around claiming to be TDR while Moridin was still alive in his earlier incarnation. ..

 

Ok I think you asked for it lol

 

Taim was Taim before Ishamael died. Whether or not he was a Darkfriend prior to that I dont know, but when Taim proclaimed himself as the Dragon he was still himself, acting either on his own ability to channel or the Shadows orders, or something else.

 

Then Ishamael dies, and between books 4 and 6 the Dark One catches his soul and keeps hold of it, waiting for a suitable body. The Dark One then summoned Demandred and tells him to bring Taim to Shayol Ghul, alive. Demandred does so. The Dark One then removes Taims soul from his body and puts Ishamaels in its place. So Ishamael, now with the name of Moridin, is posing as Mazrim Taim, but he his actually using Taims body to do so.

 

Now, there is the thing about the different faces. People have a habit of reading this theory, especially this bit, and then saying "Erm, but what about the different faces." After reading this bit. So here it is.

 

Its a True Power disguise of course, the main clue being that nobody can tell. We got a hint that something was different about Taims features straight away from Bashere, and then there is the inconsistency in Taims height. In LoC Rand notes Taim to be of average height, and in Winters Heart prologue Elayne notes that Taim is nearly as tall as Rand. Big difference, between two people who should be able to make reasonable comparisons between Rands height and someone elses. It is a True Power disguise, so nobody else can feel that something is being channeled. And yet, because Taim has survived physical contact, it can be deduced that a True Power disguise actually changes the flesh. It is not an Illusion. It actually changes the appearance, and the first and foremost thing, of course, would be that the sa'a dont show up through because Taims eyes are among the things that have been altered-"Taim" has tilted eyes, Moridin doesnt. Moridin walking around under this disguise would explain why he had the sa'a so early, as noted by whichever Forsaken it was, cant remember.

 

Yada yada the link and the flashing faces and that. We have been told several times that the True Power cannot be sensed by another channeler. This means that whatever causes Rand to see Moridins face, he sees the unaltered version, Taims actual face, not the disguise that we know as "Taim the M'Hael." To clarify:

 

-Moridin uses Taims original, unaltered features. This is the one Rand met at Shadar Logoth, and the one Rand sees in the flashing images when he channels saidin, the face that the other Forsaken see at their meetings. Taim no longer exists, this is why they never mention or think of him, Taim is gone and his body now belongs to Moridin. It is well known among the Chosen.

 

-The guy we know as Taim, that face is an altered version of the original. The reason Rand is not privy to seeing this face in the flashing images when he channels, that is because only the True Power wielder is aware of their use. So whatever happens, Rand was never going to see the disguise... But then I think he did, in TGS when he channeled the True Power. Ever since Rand identified Moridin as the man from Shadar Logoth, he referenced him as that every single time he saw a non-Mat-or-Perrin in his vision. And then when he channeled the True Power it said he saw "a face" yada yada. I think that, due to the merge, Rand and Moridin are becoming one True Power user, I think Rand had access to the True Power from the link, and that when Rand channels the True Power he will be aware of Moridins weaves as well as his own because in that sense, Rand is becoming Moridin and vice versa. So in short, I think the connection and its effects on both men make it so Rand WILL see Moridins disguise in his mind, but only if Rand himself channels the True Power.

 

EDIT: Moridin notes that he had been exclusively using the True Power. This means the Darkfriend Ashaman are taught saidin weaves by Demandred, and so Demandred teaches in "Taims private classes" which gives Moridin chance to get away, and then those Darkfriend Ashaman and any skilled Light-loyal channelers would do the day to day teachings. The more Darkfriend teachers, the more of a tab Moridin can keep on teh Light getting so many full Ashaman-Logain has already mentioned there was a problem here.

 

Theres more but I dont want to take over the thread with it, Ive spouted all this in a few places now lol

 

If Moridin was transmigrated into Taim's body, why would he need a True Power disguise to pose as Taim? The only thing he would need to disguise is the saa. The only time he would need a True Power disguise is to appear as the person that Rand sees in Shadar Logoth and inside his head. I could understand disguising yourself for your enemies but why does he always appear not looking like Taim when meeting the other Chosen. You claim that the Chosen all know that Moridin is in Taim's body so why doesn't he just walk around in his natural form in front of the Chosen? Add in the conflicting orders to the renegade Asha-man in WH and this theory just has too many hurdles to clear to be very likely to me.

[Sharaman]

The sword was the only weapon Rand knew how to use.

I seem to remember Rand using a bow once or twice.

[capuga]

The sword was the only weapon Rand knew how to use.

I seem to remember Rand using a bow once or twice.

 

And likely a quarterstaff as well. Mat's POV implied that most of the villagers knew how to handle one and they had competitions at Bel Tine.

[didymos]

The sword was the only weapon Rand knew how to use.

I seem to remember Rand using a bow once or twice.

 

In fact, in Rand's very first POV, his very introduction as a character to the reader, we find:

 

Gusts plastered Rand Al'Thor's cloak to his back, whipped the earth-colored wool around his legs, then streamed it out behind him. He wished his coat were heavier, or that he had worn an extra shirt. Half the time when he tried to tug the cloak back around him it caught on the quiver swinging at his hip. Trying to hold the cloak one-handed did not do much good anyway; he had his bow in the other, an arrow nocked and ready to draw.

 

And let us not forget him using the Flame and the Void to kill six grolm with exactly six arrows, every time hitting the central eye, in tGH. But yeah, it's not like he actually knew how to use the thing....

[didymos]

Oh... and isn't it funny that Bashere comes up with the name Asha'man? If you consider that an AshanDarei is a sword-spear, Mandarb and Manshima mean 'Sword' & 'Blade'?

Also recall that Ishamael promised Lews Therin way way back in the prologue of TEotW that 'he would make men kneel and worship the name they gave him to revile him'.

 

I think it's funny "Taim" (Moridin) calles himself M'hael (Leader).

Because when you combine Asha'man (Sword/ Blade; making men into weapons) and M'hael, you get Asha'm'hael (BladeMaster or SwordLeader).

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

Asha'man means Guardian not blade...

 

He's taking speculation for fact. Namely that the "ashan" in ashandarei is from the same root as the "asha" in asha'man, and that said root means "blade/sword". It's a decent hypothesis, since it provides a literal description of the weapon and "blade/sword" could be a metonym for "guard/guardian" (similar to the Aiel referring to algai'd'siswai as simply "spears"), but it's completely undecidable at the moment because we don't know enough about the Old Tongue. It could be that ashandarei actually means "guardian spear", despite people commonly assuming it means "sword-spear" (a term that does appear in the text precisely once: in tSR, but is not said or implied to be a translation, used as it is three books before we finally learn the term ashandarei), or that two different roots are involved. Thus, it's worth jack as evidence for the larger, decidedly loonier theory it supposedly "supports". And that's aside from the hard to swallow idea of Moridin (and thus RJ) making really wretched Old Tongue puns on "Ishamael".

[OptimusPrime]

I think the BUT could be something to do with Taim's reluctance/refusal to teach Asha'man how to use swords or weapons other than the Power. Rand ordered this during one of his visits to the farm (which happened during books 4-6) as a backup in case an Asha'man found himself unable to channel. Taim scoffed at the idea. I assume therefore that once Rand left, Taim didn't bother (I can't remember any mention of Rand training up the Asha'man with him either, but maybe some training has been undertaken by eg Bashere/Lan etc).

 

This could become important as a tactic to defeat the darkfriend Asha'man. I've always thought that the stedding that Perrin,Egwene and Elyas used in tEotW would become relavent again - maybe good asha'man vs bad asha'man happens near there, with the goodies winning in a swordfight. Or perhaps the ter'angreal from Far Madding can be reproduced over an Asha'man army - cue slaughter of bad Asha'man by army of farmers!

 

The second bit of my theory is, admittedly, a bit weak, but I do think the first point could be useful.

 

What do you think?

 

I think Taim didnt teach them the sword because he is Moridin and he doesnt know how to wield one

The only argument I have to counter that Idea is that i think Taim was going around claiming to be TDR while Moridin was still alive in his earlier incarnation. ..

 

Ok I think you asked for it lol

 

Taim was Taim before Ishamael died. Whether or not he was a Darkfriend prior to that I dont know, but when Taim proclaimed himself as the Dragon he was still himself, acting either on his own ability to channel or the Shadows orders, or something else.

 

Then Ishamael dies, and between books 4 and 6 the Dark One catches his soul and keeps hold of it, waiting for a suitable body. The Dark One then summoned Demandred and tells him to bring Taim to Shayol Ghul, alive. Demandred does so. The Dark One then removes Taims soul from his body and puts Ishamaels in its place. So Ishamael, now with the name of Moridin, is posing as Mazrim Taim, but he his actually using Taims body to do so.

 

Now, there is the thing about the different faces. People have a habit of reading this theory, especially this bit, and then saying "Erm, but what about the different faces." After reading this bit. So here it is.

 

Its a True Power disguise of course, the main clue being that nobody can tell. We got a hint that something was different about Taims features straight away from Bashere, and then there is the inconsistency in Taims height. In LoC Rand notes Taim to be of average height, and in Winters Heart prologue Elayne notes that Taim is nearly as tall as Rand. Big difference, between two people who should be able to make reasonable comparisons between Rands height and someone elses. It is a True Power disguise, so nobody else can feel that something is being channeled. And yet, because Taim has survived physical contact, it can be deduced that a True Power disguise actually changes the flesh. It is not an Illusion. It actually changes the appearance, and the first and foremost thing, of course, would be that the sa'a dont show up through because Taims eyes are among the things that have been altered-"Taim" has tilted eyes, Moridin doesnt. Moridin walking around under this disguise would explain why he had the sa'a so early, as noted by whichever Forsaken it was, cant remember.

 

Yada yada the link and the flashing faces and that. We have been told several times that the True Power cannot be sensed by another channeler. This means that whatever causes Rand to see Moridins face, he sees the unaltered version, Taims actual face, not the disguise that we know as "Taim the M'Hael." To clarify:

 

-Moridin uses Taims original, unaltered features. This is the one Rand met at Shadar Logoth, and the one Rand sees in the flashing images when he channels saidin, the face that the other Forsaken see at their meetings. Taim no longer exists, this is why they never mention or think of him, Taim is gone and his body now belongs to Moridin. It is well known among the Chosen.

 

-The guy we know as Taim, that face is an altered version of the original. The reason Rand is not privy to seeing this face in the flashing images when he channels, that is because only the True Power wielder is aware of their use. So whatever happens, Rand was never going to see the disguise... But then I think he did, in TGS when he channeled the True Power. Ever since Rand identified Moridin as the man from Shadar Logoth, he referenced him as that every single time he saw a non-Mat-or-Perrin in his vision. And then when he channeled the True Power it said he saw "a face" yada yada. I think that, due to the merge, Rand and Moridin are becoming one True Power user, I think Rand had access to the True Power from the link, and that when Rand channels the True Power he will be aware of Moridins weaves as well as his own because in that sense, Rand is becoming Moridin and vice versa. So in short, I think the connection and its effects on both men make it so Rand WILL see Moridins disguise in his mind, but only if Rand himself channels the True Power.

 

EDIT: Moridin notes that he had been exclusively using the True Power. This means the Darkfriend Ashaman are taught saidin weaves by Demandred, and so Demandred teaches in "Taims private classes" which gives Moridin chance to get away, and then those Darkfriend Ashaman and any skilled Light-loyal channelers would do the day to day teachings. The more Darkfriend teachers, the more of a tab Moridin can keep on teh Light getting so many full Ashaman-Logain has already mentioned there was a problem here.

 

Theres more but I dont want to take over the thread with it, Ive spouted all this in a few places now lol

 

If Moridin was transmigrated into Taim's body, why would he need a True Power disguise to pose as Taim? The only thing he would need to disguise is the saa. The only time he would need a True Power disguise is to appear as the person that Rand sees in Shadar Logoth and inside his head. I could understand disguising yourself for your enemies but why does he always appear not looking like Taim when meeting the other Chosen. You claim that the Chosen all know that Moridin is in Taim's body so why doesn't he just walk around in his natural form in front of the Chosen? Add in the conflicting orders to the renegade Asha-man in WH and this theory just has too many hurdles to clear to be very likely to me.

 

Well it is just that, a theory, and I know exactly how absurd it looks. Remember though, I said Moridin appears to the Chosen with Taims original face, the one Rand saw at Shadar Logoth. The M'Hael is the altered face, the Nae'blis is Taims original, unaltered face, the one Bashere was expecting. But neither Bashere nor Rand has seen that face from Lord of Chaos onwards, and the fact that Moridin appeared with the altered face and got past Bashere, who clearly knows Taim by appearances, is a show of Ishamaels craftiness. Very, very crafty, he merely shaved as a minor obvious change and then backed himself up with a few general facts about Basheres previous experiences with the real Taim.

 

So why the different faces? First and foremost its so he can appear in front of the Lights biggest players, make mistakes, and then be able to walk about without having to maintain a disguise-if they only see him with a disguise already, his natural face is hidden. But it is far, far more than that I think. Of course this is an attempt to figure out Ishamaels mind so it could be way off, but... well. In TGS Verin said the Dark One finds selfishness predictable. I think Ishamael does a lesser version of this, with paranoia. With selfishness also with the Darkfriend Ashaman, but forget that for a second. Ishamael plays on paranoia, he instigates it all over the place. Just for a second, go with the scenario that Ishamael has just returned in Taims body. He gets a briefing on the worlds events since his last death, most importantly, that Rand has declared an amnesty for male channelers, that the Black Ajah broke Taim free to bring Ishamael back, and that the world-including Aes Sedai-still think Taim is alive. For sake of reference, I will say this; when I say Moridin, imagine Taims original appearance we see at Chosen meetings, the only time I will say Taim is when I mention the fake True Power altered face Rand knows as Taim.

 

Moridin, with the unaltered appearance of his new body, decides to answer the Dragon Reborns amnesty and walk right up to Rand. His plan is obvious; Moridin has been briefed that the other False Dragons of recent times-Logain, and the others from EotW-had all been dealt with by Aes Sedai. So from Moridins point of view, predicting Rands thoughts on this is relatively simple; Rand knows Taim has experience channeling, and Moridin thinks Rand would have no other option but to have Taim teach new recruits while Rand dealt with more important things. Moridin thinks to himself that that kind of... no other option-ness... could be manipulated. So he thinks to himself he will have Bashere on his tail, making the decision to keep "Taim" potentially create a rift between Rand and Bashere. Now, prior to this, Moridin had already decided to use a True Power disguise, and brand that new face with the name TAIM and all its honors. He obviously sees that Bashere will of course note the difference in appearances, so he merely has a shave and deems to play a game with Rands head if Bashere mentions anything. The plan being, that if Bashere says anything about Taims appearance, he will simply say something personal to piss Bashere off, something that happened between Bashere and Taim before. Get an emotional reaction out of Bashere if he says anything, and if that happens it will not only make Rand believe it really is Taim despite Basheres objection, it will also possibly make Bashere look less competant in Rands eyes.

 

The Black Tower, and the Darkfriend Ashaman. Ishamael has had a long time to learn from the Dark One. He plays on the Darkfriend Ashamans selfishness just as Verin said the Dark One does with the Chosen. His contradictions with the orders is nothing but a game; he doesnt need to tell them the same thing, he just needs to tell them what they need to hear to get the best results. I see the heirarchy like this; "Taim" is seen as the recruiter and the site manager, he handles the new Darkfriend recruits and it is he that does the day to day Darkfriend Ashaman management tasks, "taking commands from Demandred." Demandred is Senior Management; once Taim has given the Darkfriend adequate Shadow briefings they are then "passed on" to Demandred. Their selfishness makes them think they have moved up the heirarchy. They get an air of arrogance from it, think of themselves as bigshots because now, they dont just take orders from Taim, they take them from Taims boss, thats what they think. These are the ones that attend "Taims special classes," which in actual fact is Demandred giving them new briefings while Moridin is offsite for some Nae'blis duties. By now, the Darkfriend Ashaman may have heard Moridins name, maybe even seen him without the True Power disguise, but they dont know Moridin has been commanding them all along, and very few will ever learn it. Moridin, by reserving Taims original appearance, has preserved his new natural face as the Nae'blis all along, only being revealed at a time when the Demandred is teaching them. This allows a sense of "knowing ones place" to be put forward by Moridin; because they dont know he is Taim, the REAL Taim face now carries the name Moridin and the title Nae'blis, where Demandreds orders come from. Once in a while Moridin will take a hand directly and reinforce the charade, Kismans case being the obvious case with the contradicting orders. Remember, Ishamael went against Rand several times and failed. Would Moridin think it likely that a mere Third Ager could actually harm Rand, Rand having the Wheel behind him? Moridin knows all too well how futile it is to go head-on against a Ta'veren, "no mere Third Ager possesses the skill for that if I dont." The fact that his orders contradict each other is merely Ishamael simply telling Kisman what he needs to hear to get the job done. Both orders came after Rand had decided he was to Cleanse saidin-Rand told Taim about his plan to do that himself. Moridin saying two different things to Kisman with two different faces is basically him showing the Cleansing isnt supposed to happen. "Taim" being "low down in the heirarchy" gives a command to kill Rand. Moridin however, seems to know what is more important, acts like Rands death isnt the most important thing, getting the Access Key is, to stop the Cleansing from happening. "Taim" told Kisman to kill Rand, and he failed, as noted on WH p452. Moridin then gives the order to get the Access Key, and permission to kill Rand if that was the only way. No point telling him to do something hes already failed at. Also note that on the same page Kisman notes that Demandred tells Kisman to kill Rand and that it would be better if he died than let themselves be discovered by anyone, especially the M'Hael. Now why would Demandred say that? Dedmandred is Chosen, and the Chosen continually act like Darkfriends are their own property. Why would Demandred care Taim, of all people, finding out that he sent Kisman to kill Rand? This is my biggest beef with the Taim-as-Demandreds-proxy theory. It sounds to me, from that bit alone, that Demandred is scared that HE has issued an order that contradicts Moridins orders to not harm Rand. But if Taim was Demandreds proxy, why would Demandred not want Taim to find out what commands he had issued to his other Darkfriend minions? The answer, of course, could either be that Taim is a Third Age Chosen and Demandred fears him, or that Taim is actually Moridins proxy and very loyal to him. Or... *drumroll* Demandred doesnt want Kisman to be caught trying to kill Rand, especially by Taim, because Demandred knows that Taim is Moridin and Kismans command (from Demandred) contradicts Moridin-in-Taims-body-without-the-disguise to the other Chosen, about not killing Rand.

 

Does it make sense?

[didymos]

We got a hint that something was different about Taims features straight away from Bashere, and then there is the inconsistency in Taims height. In LoC Rand notes Taim to be of average height, and in Winters Heart prologue Elayne notes that Taim is nearly as tall as Rand.

 

You've got a problem here: the text has changed since the earlier printings of LoC. Taim was originally described as "a black-haired man of slightly above average height whose dark face and tilted eyes.." whereas more recent editions now say "then a black-haired man of well-above average height whose dark face and tilted eyes..." No more inconsistency.

[OptimusPrime]

We got a hint that something was different about Taims features straight away from Bashere, and then there is the inconsistency in Taims height. In LoC Rand notes Taim to be of average height, and in Winters Heart prologue Elayne notes that Taim is nearly as tall as Rand.

 

You've got a problem here: the text has changed since the earlier printings of LoC. Taim was originally described as "a black-haired man of slightly above average height whose dark face and tilted eyes.." whereas as more recent editions now say "then a black-haired man of well-above average height whose dark face and tilted eyes..." No more inconsistency.

 

Bummer. Didnt know about that

[didymos]

Bummer. Didnt know about that

 

I just now discovered it myself. It occurred to me to look at IdealSeek after I checked my copy. Now I'm even more annoyed my first-printing of the HC took heavy-water damage a while back and had to be laid to rest (i.e. tossed out). I like having versions with first-printing screw-ups in them.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Oh... and isn't it funny that Bashere comes up with the name Asha'man? If you consider that an AshanDarei is a sword-spear, Mandarb and Manshima mean 'Sword' & 'Blade'?

Also recall that Ishamael promised Lews Therin way way back in the prologue of TEotW that 'he would make men kneel and worship the name they gave him to revile him'.

 

I think it's funny "Taim" (Moridin) calles himself M'hael (Leader).

Because when you combine Asha'man (Sword/ Blade; making men into weapons) and M'hael, you get Asha'm'hael (BladeMaster or SwordLeader).

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

Asha'man means Guardian not blade...

 

He's taking speculation for fact. Namely that the "ashan" in ashandarei is from the same root as the "asha" in asha'man, and that said root means "blade/sword". It's a decent hypothesis, since it provides a literal description of the weapon and "blade/sword" could be a metonym for "guard/guardian" (similar to the Aiel referring to algai'd'siswai as simply "spears"), but it's completely undecidable at the moment because we don't know enough about the Old Tongue. It could be that ashandarei actually means "guardian spear", despite people commonly assuming it means "sword-spear" (a term that does appear in the text precisely once: in tSR, but is not said or implied to be a translation, used as it is three books before we finally learn the term ashandarei), or that two different roots are involved. Thus, it's worth jack as evidence for the larger, decidedly loonier theory it supposedly "supports". And that's aside from the hard to swallow idea of Moridin (and thus RJ) making really wretched Old Tongue puns on "Ishamael".

 

Indeed, thats fair enough. Still, as you say, its not really anything at all. Asha'man means Guardian. Its not some crazy link to Ishamael. I truely doubt RJ would go to taht much trouble for one little thing. Asha'man is a cool name. It means Guardians, a perfect word for the guardians against shadow.

[capuga]

I think the BUT could be something to do with Taim's reluctance/refusal to teach Asha'man how to use swords or weapons other than the Power. Rand ordered this during one of his visits to the farm (which happened during books 4-6) as a backup in case an Asha'man found himself unable to channel. Taim scoffed at the idea. I assume therefore that once Rand left, Taim didn't bother (I can't remember any mention of Rand training up the Asha'man with him either, but maybe some training has been undertaken by eg Bashere/Lan etc).

 

This could become important as a tactic to defeat the darkfriend Asha'man. I've always thought that the stedding that Perrin,Egwene and Elyas used in tEotW would become relavent again - maybe good asha'man vs bad asha'man happens near there, with the goodies winning in a swordfight. Or perhaps the ter'angreal from Far Madding can be reproduced over an Asha'man army - cue slaughter of bad Asha'man by army of farmers!

 

The second bit of my theory is, admittedly, a bit weak, but I do think the first point could be useful.

 

What do you think?

 

I think Taim didnt teach them the sword because he is Moridin and he doesnt know how to wield one

The only argument I have to counter that Idea is that i think Taim was going around claiming to be TDR while Moridin was still alive in his earlier incarnation. ..

 

Ok I think you asked for it lol

 

Taim was Taim before Ishamael died. Whether or not he was a Darkfriend prior to that I dont know, but when Taim proclaimed himself as the Dragon he was still himself, acting either on his own ability to channel or the Shadows orders, or something else.

 

Then Ishamael dies, and between books 4 and 6 the Dark One catches his soul and keeps hold of it, waiting for a suitable body. The Dark One then summoned Demandred and tells him to bring Taim to Shayol Ghul, alive. Demandred does so. The Dark One then removes Taims soul from his body and puts Ishamaels in its place. So Ishamael, now with the name of Moridin, is posing as Mazrim Taim, but he his actually using Taims body to do so.

 

Now, there is the thing about the different faces. People have a habit of reading this theory, especially this bit, and then saying "Erm, but what about the different faces." After reading this bit. So here it is.

 

Its a True Power disguise of course, the main clue being that nobody can tell. We got a hint that something was different about Taims features straight away from Bashere, and then there is the inconsistency in Taims height. In LoC Rand notes Taim to be of average height, and in Winters Heart prologue Elayne notes that Taim is nearly as tall as Rand. Big difference, between two people who should be able to make reasonable comparisons between Rands height and someone elses. It is a True Power disguise, so nobody else can feel that something is being channeled. And yet, because Taim has survived physical contact, it can be deduced that a True Power disguise actually changes the flesh. It is not an Illusion. It actually changes the appearance, and the first and foremost thing, of course, would be that the sa'a dont show up through because Taims eyes are among the things that have been altered-"Taim" has tilted eyes, Moridin doesnt. Moridin walking around under this disguise would explain why he had the sa'a so early, as noted by whichever Forsaken it was, cant remember.

 

Yada yada the link and the flashing faces and that. We have been told several times that the True Power cannot be sensed by another channeler. This means that whatever causes Rand to see Moridins face, he sees the unaltered version, Taims actual face, not the disguise that we know as "Taim the M'Hael." To clarify:

 

-Moridin uses Taims original, unaltered features. This is the one Rand met at Shadar Logoth, and the one Rand sees in the flashing images when he channels saidin, the face that the other Forsaken see at their meetings. Taim no longer exists, this is why they never mention or think of him, Taim is gone and his body now belongs to Moridin. It is well known among the Chosen.

 

-The guy we know as Taim, that face is an altered version of the original. The reason Rand is not privy to seeing this face in the flashing images when he channels, that is because only the True Power wielder is aware of their use. So whatever happens, Rand was never going to see the disguise... But then I think he did, in TGS when he channeled the True Power. Ever since Rand identified Moridin as the man from Shadar Logoth, he referenced him as that every single time he saw a non-Mat-or-Perrin in his vision. And then when he channeled the True Power it said he saw "a face" yada yada. I think that, due to the merge, Rand and Moridin are becoming one True Power user, I think Rand had access to the True Power from the link, and that when Rand channels the True Power he will be aware of Moridins weaves as well as his own because in that sense, Rand is becoming Moridin and vice versa. So in short, I think the connection and its effects on both men make it so Rand WILL see Moridins disguise in his mind, but only if Rand himself channels the True Power.

 

EDIT: Moridin notes that he had been exclusively using the True Power. This means the Darkfriend Ashaman are taught saidin weaves by Demandred, and so Demandred teaches in "Taims private classes" which gives Moridin chance to get away, and then those Darkfriend Ashaman and any skilled Light-loyal channelers would do the day to day teachings. The more Darkfriend teachers, the more of a tab Moridin can keep on teh Light getting so many full Ashaman-Logain has already mentioned there was a problem here.

 

Theres more but I dont want to take over the thread with it, Ive spouted all this in a few places now lol

 

If Moridin was transmigrated into Taim's body, why would he need a True Power disguise to pose as Taim? The only thing he would need to disguise is the saa. The only time he would need a True Power disguise is to appear as the person that Rand sees in Shadar Logoth and inside his head. I could understand disguising yourself for your enemies but why does he always appear not looking like Taim when meeting the other Chosen. You claim that the Chosen all know that Moridin is in Taim's body so why doesn't he just walk around in his natural form in front of the Chosen? Add in the conflicting orders to the renegade Asha-man in WH and this theory just has too many hurdles to clear to be very likely to me.

 

Well it is just that, a theory, and I know exactly how absurd it looks. Remember though, I said Moridin appears to the Chosen with Taims original face, the one Rand saw at Shadar Logoth. The M'Hael is the altered face, the Nae'blis is Taims original, unaltered face, the one Bashere was expecting. But neither Bashere nor Rand has seen that face from Lord of Chaos onwards, and the fact that Moridin appeared with the altered face and got past Bashere, who clearly knows Taim by appearances, is a show of Ishamaels craftiness. Very, very crafty, he merely shaved as a minor obvious change and then backed himself up with a few general facts about Basheres previous experiences with the real Taim.

 

So why the different faces? First and foremost its so he can appear in front of the Lights biggest players, make mistakes, and then be able to walk about without having to maintain a disguise-if they only see him with a disguise already, his natural face is hidden. But it is far, far more than that I think. Of course this is an attempt to figure out Ishamaels mind so it could be way off, but... well. In TGS Verin said the Dark One finds selfishness predictable. I think Ishamael does a lesser version of this, with paranoia. With selfishness also with the Darkfriend Ashaman, but forget that for a second. Ishamael plays on paranoia, he instigates it all over the place. Just for a second, go with the scenario that Ishamael has just returned in Taims body. He gets a briefing on the worlds events since his last death, most importantly, that Rand has declared an amnesty for male channelers, that the Black Ajah broke Taim free to bring Ishamael back, and that the world-including Aes Sedai-still think Taim is alive. For sake of reference, I will say this; when I say Moridin, imagine Taims original appearance we see at Chosen meetings, the only time I will say Taim is when I mention the fake True Power altered face Rand knows as Taim.

 

Moridin, with the unaltered appearance of his new body, decides to answer the Dragon Reborns amnesty and walk right up to Rand. His plan is obvious; Moridin has been briefed that the other False Dragons of recent times-Logain, and the others from EotW-had all been dealt with by Aes Sedai. So from Moridins point of view, predicting Rands thoughts on this is relatively simple; Rand knows Taim has experience channeling, and Moridin thinks Rand would have no other option but to have Taim teach new recruits while Rand dealt with more important things. Moridin thinks to himself that that kind of... no other option-ness... could be manipulated. So he thinks to himself he will have Bashere on his tail, making the decision to keep "Taim" potentially create a rift between Rand and Bashere. Now, prior to this, Moridin had already decided to use a True Power disguise, and brand that new face with the name TAIM and all its honors. He obviously sees that Bashere will of course note the difference in appearances, so he merely has a shave and deems to play a game with Rands head if Bashere mentions anything. The plan being, that if Bashere says anything about Taims appearance, he will simply say something personal to piss Bashere off, something that happened between Bashere and Taim before. Get an emotional reaction out of Bashere if he says anything, and if that happens it will not only make Rand believe it really is Taim despite Basheres objection, it will also possibly make Bashere look less competant in Rands eyes.

 

The Black Tower, and the Darkfriend Ashaman. Ishamael has had a long time to learn from the Dark One. He plays on the Darkfriend Ashamans selfishness just as Verin said the Dark One does with the Chosen. His contradictions with the orders is nothing but a game; he doesnt need to tell them the same thing, he just needs to tell them what they need to hear to get the best results. I see the heirarchy like this; "Taim" is seen as the recruiter and the site manager, he handles the new Darkfriend recruits and it is he that does the day to day Darkfriend Ashaman management tasks, "taking commands from Demandred." Demandred is Senior Management; once Taim has given the Darkfriend adequate Shadow briefings they are then "passed on" to Demandred. Their selfishness makes them think they have moved up the heirarchy. They get an air of arrogance from it, think of themselves as bigshots because now, they dont just take orders from Taim, they take them from Taims boss, thats what they think. These are the ones that attend "Taims special classes," which in actual fact is Demandred giving them new briefings while Moridin is offsite for some Nae'blis duties. By now, the Darkfriend Ashaman may have heard Moridins name, maybe even seen him without the True Power disguise, but they dont know Moridin has been commanding them all along, and very few will ever learn it. Moridin, by reserving Taims original appearance, has preserved his new natural face as the Nae'blis all along, only being revealed at a time when the Demandred is teaching them. This allows a sense of "knowing ones place" to be put forward by Moridin; because they dont know he is Taim, the REAL Taim face now carries the name Moridin and the title Nae'blis, where Demandreds orders come from. Once in a while Moridin will take a hand directly and reinforce the charade, Kismans case being the obvious case with the contradicting orders. Remember, Ishamael went against Rand several times and failed. Would Moridin think it likely that a mere Third Ager could actually harm Rand, Rand having the Wheel behind him? Moridin knows all too well how futile it is to go head-on against a Ta'veren, "no mere Third Ager possesses the skill for that if I dont." The fact that his orders contradict each other is merely Ishamael simply telling Kisman what he needs to hear to get the job done. Both orders came after Rand had decided he was to Cleanse saidin-Rand told Taim about his plan to do that himself. Moridin saying two different things to Kisman with two different faces is basically him showing the Cleansing isnt supposed to happen. "Taim" being "low down in the heirarchy" gives a command to kill Rand. Moridin however, seems to know what is more important, acts like Rands death isnt the most important thing, getting the Access Key is, to stop the Cleansing from happening. "Taim" told Kisman to kill Rand, and he failed, as noted on WH p452. Moridin then gives the order to get the Access Key, and permission to kill Rand if that was the only way. No point telling him to do something hes already failed at. Also note that on the same page Kisman notes that Demandred tells Kisman to kill Rand and that it would be better if he died than let themselves be discovered by anyone, especially the M'Hael. Now why would Demandred say that? Dedmandred is Chosen, and the Chosen continually act like Darkfriends are their own property. Why would Demandred care Taim, of all people, finding out that he sent Kisman to kill Rand? This is my biggest beef with the Taim-as-Demandreds-proxy theory. It sounds to me, from that bit alone, that Demandred is scared that HE has issued an order that contradicts Moridins orders to not harm Rand. But if Taim was Demandreds proxy, why would Demandred not want Taim to find out what commands he had issued to his other Darkfriend minions? The answer, of course, could either be that Taim is a Third Age Chosen and Demandred fears him, or that Taim is actually Moridins proxy and very loyal to him. Or... *drumroll* Demandred doesnt want Kisman to be caught trying to kill Rand, especially by Taim, because Demandred knows that Taim is Moridin and Kismans command (from Demandred) contradicts Moridin-in-Taims-body-without-the-disguise to the other Chosen, about not killing Rand.

 

Does it make sense?

 

I understood the basics of the theory. I think if I read through your explanation any more my head might explode

[OptimusPrime]

I think the BUT could be something to do with Taim's reluctance/refusal to teach Asha'man how to use swords or weapons other than the Power. Rand ordered this during one of his visits to the farm (which happened during books 4-6) as a backup in case an Asha'man found himself unable to channel. Taim scoffed at the idea. I assume therefore that once Rand left, Taim didn't bother (I can't remember any mention of Rand training up the Asha'man with him either, but maybe some training has been undertaken by eg Bashere/Lan etc).

 

This could become important as a tactic to defeat the darkfriend Asha'man. I've always thought that the stedding that Perrin,Egwene and Elyas used in tEotW would become relavent again - maybe good asha'man vs bad asha'man happens near there, with the goodies winning in a swordfight. Or perhaps the ter'angreal from Far Madding can be reproduced over an Asha'man army - cue slaughter of bad Asha'man by army of farmers!

 

The second bit of my theory is, admittedly, a bit weak, but I do think the first point could be useful.

 

What do you think?

 

I think Taim didnt teach them the sword because he is Moridin and he doesnt know how to wield one

The only argument I have to counter that Idea is that i think Taim was going around claiming to be TDR while Moridin was still alive in his earlier incarnation. ..

 

Ok I think you asked for it lol

 

Taim was Taim before Ishamael died. Whether or not he was a Darkfriend prior to that I dont know, but when Taim proclaimed himself as the Dragon he was still himself, acting either on his own ability to channel or the Shadows orders, or something else.

 

Then Ishamael dies, and between books 4 and 6 the Dark One catches his soul and keeps hold of it, waiting for a suitable body. The Dark One then summoned Demandred and tells him to bring Taim to Shayol Ghul, alive. Demandred does so. The Dark One then removes Taims soul from his body and puts Ishamaels in its place. So Ishamael, now with the name of Moridin, is posing as Mazrim Taim, but he his actually using Taims body to do so.

 

Now, there is the thing about the different faces. People have a habit of reading this theory, especially this bit, and then saying "Erm, but what about the different faces." After reading this bit. So here it is.

 

Its a True Power disguise of course, the main clue being that nobody can tell. We got a hint that something was different about Taims features straight away from Bashere, and then there is the inconsistency in Taims height. In LoC Rand notes Taim to be of average height, and in Winters Heart prologue Elayne notes that Taim is nearly as tall as Rand. Big difference, between two people who should be able to make reasonable comparisons between Rands height and someone elses. It is a True Power disguise, so nobody else can feel that something is being channeled. And yet, because Taim has survived physical contact, it can be deduced that a True Power disguise actually changes the flesh. It is not an Illusion. It actually changes the appearance, and the first and foremost thing, of course, would be that the sa'a dont show up through because Taims eyes are among the things that have been altered-"Taim" has tilted eyes, Moridin doesnt. Moridin walking around under this disguise would explain why he had the sa'a so early, as noted by whichever Forsaken it was, cant remember.

 

Yada yada the link and the flashing faces and that. We have been told several times that the True Power cannot be sensed by another channeler. This means that whatever causes Rand to see Moridins face, he sees the unaltered version, Taims actual face, not the disguise that we know as "Taim the M'Hael." To clarify:

 

-Moridin uses Taims original, unaltered features. This is the one Rand met at Shadar Logoth, and the one Rand sees in the flashing images when he channels saidin, the face that the other Forsaken see at their meetings. Taim no longer exists, this is why they never mention or think of him, Taim is gone and his body now belongs to Moridin. It is well known among the Chosen.

 

-The guy we know as Taim, that face is an altered version of the original. The reason Rand is not privy to seeing this face in the flashing images when he channels, that is because only the True Power wielder is aware of their use. So whatever happens, Rand was never going to see the disguise... But then I think he did, in TGS when he channeled the True Power. Ever since Rand identified Moridin as the man from Shadar Logoth, he referenced him as that every single time he saw a non-Mat-or-Perrin in his vision. And then when he channeled the True Power it said he saw "a face" yada yada. I think that, due to the merge, Rand and Moridin are becoming one True Power user, I think Rand had access to the True Power from the link, and that when Rand channels the True Power he will be aware of Moridins weaves as well as his own because in that sense, Rand is becoming Moridin and vice versa. So in short, I think the connection and its effects on both men make it so Rand WILL see Moridins disguise in his mind, but only if Rand himself channels the True Power.

 

EDIT: Moridin notes that he had been exclusively using the True Power. This means the Darkfriend Ashaman are taught saidin weaves by Demandred, and so Demandred teaches in "Taims private classes" which gives Moridin chance to get away, and then those Darkfriend Ashaman and any skilled Light-loyal channelers would do the day to day teachings. The more Darkfriend teachers, the more of a tab Moridin can keep on teh Light getting so many full Ashaman-Logain has already mentioned there was a problem here.

 

Theres more but I dont want to take over the thread with it, Ive spouted all this in a few places now lol

 

If Moridin was transmigrated into Taim's body, why would he need a True Power disguise to pose as Taim? The only thing he would need to disguise is the saa. The only time he would need a True Power disguise is to appear as the person that Rand sees in Shadar Logoth and inside his head. I could understand disguising yourself for your enemies but why does he always appear not looking like Taim when meeting the other Chosen. You claim that the Chosen all know that Moridin is in Taim's body so why doesn't he just walk around in his natural form in front of the Chosen? Add in the conflicting orders to the renegade Asha-man in WH and this theory just has too many hurdles to clear to be very likely to me.

 

Well it is just that, a theory, and I know exactly how absurd it looks. Remember though, I said Moridin appears to the Chosen with Taims original face, the one Rand saw at Shadar Logoth. The M'Hael is the altered face, the Nae'blis is Taims original, unaltered face, the one Bashere was expecting. But neither Bashere nor Rand has seen that face from Lord of Chaos onwards, and the fact that Moridin appeared with the altered face and got past Bashere, who clearly knows Taim by appearances, is a show of Ishamaels craftiness. Very, very crafty, he merely shaved as a minor obvious change and then backed himself up with a few general facts about Basheres previous experiences with the real Taim.

 

So why the different faces? First and foremost its so he can appear in front of the Lights biggest players, make mistakes, and then be able to walk about without having to maintain a disguise-if they only see him with a disguise already, his natural face is hidden. But it is far, far more than that I think. Of course this is an attempt to figure out Ishamaels mind so it could be way off, but... well. In TGS Verin said the Dark One finds selfishness predictable. I think Ishamael does a lesser version of this, with paranoia. With selfishness also with the Darkfriend Ashaman, but forget that for a second. Ishamael plays on paranoia, he instigates it all over the place. Just for a second, go with the scenario that Ishamael has just returned in Taims body. He gets a briefing on the worlds events since his last death, most importantly, that Rand has declared an amnesty for male channelers, that the Black Ajah broke Taim free to bring Ishamael back, and that the world-including Aes Sedai-still think Taim is alive. For sake of reference, I will say this; when I say Moridin, imagine Taims original appearance we see at Chosen meetings, the only time I will say Taim is when I mention the fake True Power altered face Rand knows as Taim.

 

Moridin, with the unaltered appearance of his new body, decides to answer the Dragon Reborns amnesty and walk right up to Rand. His plan is obvious; Moridin has been briefed that the other False Dragons of recent times-Logain, and the others from EotW-had all been dealt with by Aes Sedai. So from Moridins point of view, predicting Rands thoughts on this is relatively simple; Rand knows Taim has experience channeling, and Moridin thinks Rand would have no other option but to have Taim teach new recruits while Rand dealt with more important things. Moridin thinks to himself that that kind of... no other option-ness... could be manipulated. So he thinks to himself he will have Bashere on his tail, making the decision to keep "Taim" potentially create a rift between Rand and Bashere. Now, prior to this, Moridin had already decided to use a True Power disguise, and brand that new face with the name TAIM and all its honors. He obviously sees that Bashere will of course note the difference in appearances, so he merely has a shave and deems to play a game with Rands head if Bashere mentions anything. The plan being, that if Bashere says anything about Taims appearance, he will simply say something personal to piss Bashere off, something that happened between Bashere and Taim before. Get an emotional reaction out of Bashere if he says anything, and if that happens it will not only make Rand believe it really is Taim despite Basheres objection, it will also possibly make Bashere look less competant in Rands eyes.

 

The Black Tower, and the Darkfriend Ashaman. Ishamael has had a long time to learn from the Dark One. He plays on the Darkfriend Ashamans selfishness just as Verin said the Dark One does with the Chosen. His contradictions with the orders is nothing but a game; he doesnt need to tell them the same thing, he just needs to tell them what they need to hear to get the best results. I see the heirarchy like this; "Taim" is seen as the recruiter and the site manager, he handles the new Darkfriend recruits and it is he that does the day to day Darkfriend Ashaman management tasks, "taking commands from Demandred." Demandred is Senior Management; once Taim has given the Darkfriend adequate Shadow briefings they are then "passed on" to Demandred. Their selfishness makes them think they have moved up the heirarchy. They get an air of arrogance from it, think of themselves as bigshots because now, they dont just take orders from Taim, they take them from Taims boss, thats what they think. These are the ones that attend "Taims special classes," which in actual fact is Demandred giving them new briefings while Moridin is offsite for some Nae'blis duties. By now, the Darkfriend Ashaman may have heard Moridins name, maybe even seen him without the True Power disguise, but they dont know Moridin has been commanding them all along, and very few will ever learn it. Moridin, by reserving Taims original appearance, has preserved his new natural face as the Nae'blis all along, only being revealed at a time when the Demandred is teaching them. This allows a sense of "knowing ones place" to be put forward by Moridin; because they dont know he is Taim, the REAL Taim face now carries the name Moridin and the title Nae'blis, where Demandreds orders come from. Once in a while Moridin will take a hand directly and reinforce the charade, Kismans case being the obvious case with the contradicting orders. Remember, Ishamael went against Rand several times and failed. Would Moridin think it likely that a mere Third Ager could actually harm Rand, Rand having the Wheel behind him? Moridin knows all too well how futile it is to go head-on against a Ta'veren, "no mere Third Ager possesses the skill for that if I dont." The fact that his orders contradict each other is merely Ishamael simply telling Kisman what he needs to hear to get the job done. Both orders came after Rand had decided he was to Cleanse saidin-Rand told Taim about his plan to do that himself. Moridin saying two different things to Kisman with two different faces is basically him showing the Cleansing isnt supposed to happen. "Taim" being "low down in the heirarchy" gives a command to kill Rand. Moridin however, seems to know what is more important, acts like Rands death isnt the most important thing, getting the Access Key is, to stop the Cleansing from happening. "Taim" told Kisman to kill Rand, and he failed, as noted on WH p452. Moridin then gives the order to get the Access Key, and permission to kill Rand if that was the only way. No point telling him to do something hes already failed at. Also note that on the same page Kisman notes that Demandred tells Kisman to kill Rand and that it would be better if he died than let themselves be discovered by anyone, especially the M'Hael. Now why would Demandred say that? Dedmandred is Chosen, and the Chosen continually act like Darkfriends are their own property. Why would Demandred care Taim, of all people, finding out that he sent Kisman to kill Rand? This is my biggest beef with the Taim-as-Demandreds-proxy theory. It sounds to me, from that bit alone, that Demandred is scared that HE has issued an order that contradicts Moridins orders to not harm Rand. But if Taim was Demandreds proxy, why would Demandred not want Taim to find out what commands he had issued to his other Darkfriend minions? The answer, of course, could either be that Taim is a Third Age Chosen and Demandred fears him, or that Taim is actually Moridins proxy and very loyal to him. Or... *drumroll* Demandred doesnt want Kisman to be caught trying to kill Rand, especially by Taim, because Demandred knows that Taim is Moridin and Kismans command (from Demandred) contradicts Moridin-in-Taims-body-without-the-disguise to the other Chosen, about not killing Rand.

 

Does it make sense?

 

I understood the basics of the theory. I think if I read through your explanation any more my head might explode

 

Hahahahahaha that made me laugh out loud

[FarShainMael]

Intriguing, though I'm not sure about the linguistics

Ah. I see the seed I planted has found some fertile soulsoil.

Lend me your ear, my good, good friend. For it is through the likes of you -one pledged to Peace for Hope- that this barren place called Dragonmount will find truth and salvation.

 

Almost.. compare 'Far Dareis Mai'; = 'of (the) /for spear, Maidens'

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Old_Tongue_words

 

You doubt my interpretation of the Old Tongue? Was it not Rand himself who told us in his same thoughts and the same PoV where he tells us it's Bashere who came up with the name Asha'man that the Old Tongue was complex and that Old Tongue words could mean more then one thing, depending on the situation where it was used, or something very similar along those lines? (It's somewhere halfway LoC, I think)

You -especially you, given your name- should know, that in a language where 'Shain' is so close to both Peace and Battle that drawing a definite line between the two is folly. Lend me your ear and I will exalt you above all the others, through Peace or Battle, it matters not.

 

More from Wikia (see above)

shain = peace

gai = battle

gaidin = 'brother of battle, warder'

 

but, of course dai shan = battle lord

 

asha'man = guardian

ashan = sword (ashandarei)

man = sharp edge (possibly; Wikia warns that this meaning is not supported)

 

Our knowledge of the OT is perhaps too sparse to be definite here. I'm not convinced about asha'man = Ishamael, not by a long chalk. But I note that the word was suggested by Bashere, who I already have my doubts about. If he does indeed turn out to be the subject of the WOs dream about an unseen man holding a dagger to Rand's throat, I won't be in the least surprised.

 

Incidentally, just what has Slayer been doing since Luc went to the Blight, 20+ years ago? He seems to have become active only recently.

I could tell you, but that'd fry your brain near instantly. Let's just keep it at "we just don't know".

 

At least, for now..

[didymos]

 

ashan = sword (ashandarei)

 

We don't know that. The books have never translated the full word. Only the meaning of "darei" is known. If it's from the same root as "asha", it may mean "guard" or "guardian". Or they may both mean "sword". Or they may be two different roots, neither of which means "sword". People have simply taken a good guess as fact.

[FarShainMael]

 

ashan = sword (ashandarei)

 

We don't know that. The books have never translated the full word. Only the meaning of "darei" is known. If it's from the same root as "asha", it may mean "guard" or "guardian". Or they may both mean "sword". Or they may be two different roots, neither of which means "sword". People have simply taken a good guess as fact.

 

Don't blame me, blame Wikia (see link above). Is there any definitive Old Tongue dictionary available?

[Nooska]

The biggest problem with the extrapolation from the OT, is that RJ never made an entire language (as opposed to JRRT), he (and I'll look for the quote if someone doesn't beat me to it) made it up as he went along based on several real world languages mixed and matched. Thus we cannot extrapolate roots or expect consistency apart from the specific words or wordparts that we have in the series or the guide mentioned specifically as related.

[Guest Aaeryn]

I just had a thought on this when I was finishing up my re-read.

I am not sure if this was mentioned, and it seems a small thing.

Might it have something to do with Taim recruting from the Two Rivers?

It is something mentioned off-handedly a few times. Just wanted to add

this to it all.

 

:)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I just had a thought on this when I was finishing up my re-read.

I am not sure if this was mentioned, and it seems a small thing.

Might it have something to do with Taim recruting from the Two Rivers?

It is something mentioned off-handedly a few times. Just wanted to add

this to it all.

 

:)

 

Hey, welcome to the forums! Hope you have a great time!

 

unfortunately, I have to say this is ruled out.

 

The first we hear of this is in KoD (i think anyway) it s not in book 4-6. The taim recruiting bit. It may have occured during this time, but it was not made known until later on. (dont quote me on this, I am a bit shakey with my WoT knowledge at the moment.)

[FarShainMael]

The biggest problem with the extrapolation from the OT, is that RJ never made an entire language (as opposed to JRRT), he (and I'll look for the quote if someone doesn't beat me to it) made it up as he went along based on several real world languages mixed and matched. Thus we cannot extrapolate roots or expect consistency apart from the specific words or wordparts that we have in the series or the guide mentioned specifically as related.

 

 

Pity, that.

[Sid]

I just had a thought on this when I was finishing up my re-read.

I am not sure if this was mentioned, and it seems a small thing.

Might it have something to do with Taim recruting from the Two Rivers?

It is something mentioned off-handedly a few times. Just wanted to add

this to it all.

 

:)

 

Hey, welcome to the forums! Hope you have a great time!

 

unfortunately, I have to say this is ruled out.

 

The first we hear of this is in KoD (i think anyway) it s not in book 4-6. The taim recruiting bit. It may have occured during this time, but it was not made known until later on. (dont quote me on this, I am a bit shakey with my WoT knowledge at the moment.)

This was first alluded to in ACoS, just after Dumai's Wells, and later in TPoD Taim mentions it ('Picking a blackberry bush'). Logain and his group talk about it in the WH prologue as well, when we learn that it actually means what we thought it meant. So yes, it occurs after the book 4-6 window. I'm betting that it will have a part to play in the next two books though, since things tend to happen for a reason in tWoT.

[Lisa Campbell]

Sid, when Taim talked about picking that blackberry bush he was takling about Tar Valon. It was an adjunct to harvesting the Two Rivers.