Did Cadsuane teach Rand somethin he needed to know?

[Vermillion]

Tam did do some things she didn't intend.  But at the same time she was the coach and this was her play.  Things like your son is half mad and hates me... please don't mention my name as he might get pissed are big.  Its call a game plan but since AS use manipulations it failed.  Rand is the most powerful being outside the Creator and DO and was half mad.  Its only fair and reasonable to Tam that he being put into the water with a shark instead of the young guppie that Rand was leaving the 2 Rivers.

 

Her plan was a good one which was to bring in the man who raised him and had more insight into him than anyone else.  It was in hope it would bring some of the old Rand out.  Not to force him to look in the mirror.  That happened as a result of the failure of the plan.  In the book it was looked upon to be a failure. 

 

 

[FarShainMael]

Note too that Tam is the only one who does not try to bully or force Rand, but rather reasons with him and provides friendly advice, free of any ulterior motive.  And, of course, this is effective at making Rand doubt the necessity of his "hardness".

And Tam nearly died for it. And that is not Cadsuane's fault, that is Rand's. Unless of course you wish to sustain that mentioning the name of someone you dislike is reason for attempted murder.

 

It wasn't mere dislike. It was a deep and bitter resentment at being controlled. Rand wasn't attempting murder; he was trying to cast off that control.

 

Nevertheless I'm broadly in agreement, that Cadsuane was using desperate measures to solve a crisis. She did indeed 'push him before he jumped', as you put it. Arguably, Tam's friendlier approach was a necessary counterpart to that, the 'good cop' part. But whether Cadsuane's previous actions, her history with the DR, contributed to causing that crisis I couldn't say.

 

[rhadamanthus]

Her plan was a good one which was to bring in the man who raised him and had more insight into him than anyone else.  It was in hope it would bring some of the old Rand out.  Not to force him to look in the mirror.  That happened as a result of the failure of the plan.   In the book it was looked upon to be a failure. 

 

/thread, methinks.

 

I don't particularly care to debate on end whether or not Cadsuane's "plan" was necessary or well-conceived - that's subjective.  At the end, it only succeeded through a combination of luck and Rand's own internal dialogue - Cadsuane herself failed.  Maybe Cadsuane forced that dialogue to take place in an attempt to rectify her failure, but if such was her intention she went about it in a risky and arrogant way.  On other hand, risk was inevitable - this is the freekin dragon.

[Vermillion]

Her plan was a good one which was to bring in the man who raised him and had more insight into him than anyone else.  It was in hope it would bring some of the old Rand out.  Not to force him to look in the mirror.  That happened as a result of the failure of the plan.   In the book it was looked upon to be a failure. 

 

/thread, methinks.

 

I don't particularly care to debate on end whether or not Cadsuane's "plan" was necessary or well-conceived - that's subjective.  At the end, it only succeeded through a combination of luck and Rand's own internal dialogue - Cadsuane herself failed.  Maybe Cadsuane forced that dialogue to take place in an attempt to rectify her failure, but if such was her intention she went about it in a risky and arrogant way.  On other hand, risk was inevitable - this is the freekin dragon.

 

That's the thing.  I don't see where her plan wasn't to drive him over the edge.  If Tam followed through it would have been reaching to the man that Rand was and pull him from the Dragon he had become.  It was an intervention like what you do with an alcoholic.  That was her plan.  It failed because of not properly coach Tam to stay away from certain subjects like herself and why.

 

The risk really came in underestimating the man Tam was in not trusting in giving him details to complete the task and the fact that he would never blindly follow when he could clearly see there was something wrong with his adopted son.  Tam had a right to be pissed after being dropped blindly into the lions den.

 

I don't think Cad's lesson was taught and that will come in the future.  Maybe in this failure and Min's calling out will give her some insight.  Her greatest accomplishments to me past and present have been her actions in dire times.  Something a lot of the tower bound AS don't handle well because they get by on being who they are.

[rhadamanthus]

That's the thing.  I don't see where her plan wasn't to drive him over the edge.

 

Right.  As a preemptive maneuver, this is insane.  He has enough tribulations and psychological beat-downs in his natural position.  Sure, Luckers is right that her role as adviser resulted in some betterment, but the base plan hinged on her dictating the flow via bullying.  That was a mistake.

 

The risk really came in underestimating the man Tam was in not trusting in giving him details to complete the task and the fact that he would never blindly follow when he could clearly see there was something wrong with his adopted son. 

 

I'd argue she underestimated vastly more than Tam.  She underestimated Rand's situation totally.  Sure, she's been with other male channelers, but NOT the dragon reborn.  She had no idea what pressures he was under and why his reactions were so severe until post semirhage - than she understood (and it was too late).  She underestimated his paranoia, even after Min explained to him his previous dealings with Aes Sedai.

 

I don't think Cad's lesson was taught and that will come in the future.  Maybe in this failure and Min's calling out will give her some insight.  Her greatest accomplishments to me past and present have been her actions in dire times.  Something a lot of the tower bound AS don't handle well because they get by on being who they are.

 

I think much of her lesson might be taught via a mea culpa to Rand.  Which might spur some humility from him as well.

[Duskfire]

I am starting to see what gets Elayne fans so frustrated. Any thread that remotely involves Cadsuane involves focusing on her weaknesses and what she has done wrong and not on the fact she is one of the most important characters in the last few books. On the fact that if it weren't for her, Rand would be in a much worst position then he is now, if alive at all. Its laughable that some readers blame Rands hardness on her, when he was talking about needing to become harder all the way back in book 3.

[farthammer]

What?  Rand didn't get to the part where he confronted his own darkness until Tam jumped off her script.  Then she gives him a saidar straight jacket because father and son  didn't follow her plan the way she wanted.  She was accidently successful the way Elaida was accidently successful before being raised Amyrlin.

 

Actually no, he was starting to act more calmly. Tam jumping off script made it super-dramatic, but it was working before that--and in a much safer manner.

 

She didn't see Tam would jump off script. That was a mistake on her part. But the plan was working, and did work.

 

That's an inarguable point and I'm not sure why you would make it, the shock of how it did play out to Rand is the catalyst in the story, and there is nothing that supports the idea that another 5 minutes of script reading would've resulted in any more than a bandaid for a few days.

 

Also I simply cannot see how RJ would have written this entire series if one of the most important and personal events came down to Rand's father bs'ing with someone elses script.  Too contrived and cynical.

[Vermillion]

I am starting to see what gets Elayne fans so frustrated. Any thread that remotely involves Cadsuane involves focusing on her weaknesses and what she has done wrong and not on the fact she is one of the most important characters in the last few books. On the fact that if it weren't for her, Rand would be in a much worst position then he is now, if alive at all. Its laughable that some readers blame Rands hardness on her, when he was talking about needing to become harder all the way back in book 3.

 

I actually agree with much of what Lucker's said in his post on her except the last part. If she failed IMO handling the Tam situation but even give her credit for it being a good plan if she wasn't playing AS.  I give her credit for her actions. She defers to Rand when needed.  She knows he is guided by the pattern and needs to listen to the pattern.

[Lambada]

I'm sure most people know my viewpoint on Cadsuane 'teaching' Rand from Luckers' 'Subtleties of Cadsuane' thread, so I'm not going to repeat my views here - just go look them up in that thread.