Did Cadsuane teach Rand somethin he needed to know?

[Sigillium]

Min's viewing of Cadsuane said that he could teach him something important to Rand and if he hadn't banished her she would never have sent Tam to him in an attempt to change his general view on the world and what needed to be done.

 

Which wouldn't have led Rand to change his view on how angry/alone he had to be in order to fulfill the prophecies.

[Terez]

Min's viewing of Cadsuane said that he could teach him something important to Rand and if he hadn't banished her she would never have sent Tam to him in an attempt to change his general view on the world and what needed to be done.

 

Which wouldn't have led Rand to change his view on how angry/alone he had to be in order to fulfill the prophecies.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

 

Q. Has Cadsuane met Min's vision regarding the lesson she must teach Rand and the Asha'man, which they won't like one bit?

A. Part of it.

.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

LOL.  Thats irritating.

[grolm]

She may have taught the lesson, but that doesn't mean Rand mastered it.

 

Seems to me it may be something about anger. Caddy's thoughs at several times in her POV scenes reveal a concern in how consumed Rand is by anger.

[Lynander]

Well, Cadsuane has only taught Rand how to laugh, etc.  Not the Asha'man.  maybe "part of it" refers to that and she's fulfilled the part that refers to only Rand. 

[Luckers]

She's forced him to break out of Dark Rand, but that doesn't make him a well-adjusted person. Perhaps now she has to help polish Light Rand.

[Foamy The Master]

Just to be different I think Rand helped himself

 

I didn't see anyone else on that mountain with him.

I believe the way she treated Rand at stages in the books took him futher from laughing rather than closer

[FarShainMael]

And he hasn't cried yet, either.

 

I offer a thought: I've heard it said that no psychiatrist can cure a patient; they can only show patients how they can cure themselves.

 

(Though if anyone goes to Cadsuane seeking psychiatric help, they must need their head examined..  )

 

[Fains nose]

How did she teach him to laugh? She drove him literaly to the brink of insanity, to the point where he nearly destroyed the entire world. It was Rand who got himself out of that, it was Rand who discovered a reason to go on, Cadsuane taught him none of that.

[Luckers]

Cadsuane intentionally drove him to the edge in order to force him to step back from it. Any realisations he made were due to her forcing him to make them.

[Thor]

Too bad her pov clearly indicates that that was not what she did or planned.

[Fains nose]

That is shockingly reckless, if true, though i havent seen her say or think that.

[rhadamanthus]

Cadsuane intentionally drove him to the edge in order to force him to step back from it. Any realisations he made were due to her forcing him to make them.

 

If accurate, this might be the summit of Aes Sedai arrogant stupidity.

[Luckers]

Too bad her pov clearly indicates that that was not what she did or planned.

 

Her PoV's show she did precisely that. She arrived and tested him. His reaction to her showing she knew things about his weaknesses was to freak out, which set her path. She had to force him. From there she tried to limit the pain she caused him. She tried withholding what he wanted (her advice), and it began to work, he agreed to be polite, but then he was incarcerated and he got worse and she had to progress to negative reinforcement, and it worked. She was able to get him to stand back from a tantrum in Tear, realise he was wrong. And then Semirhage happened.

 

That cut the bucket, it literally did the last that could be done. Cadsuane at the point had no option, she could either push him to the edge, push him off, and create what cushion she could, or she could wait for him to walk to the edge and jump with no cushion.

 

Her POV's mark this. Did she mean for Tam to anger Rand with the realisation that she was behind it? No. Did she mean for him to nearly kill Tam? No. Did she directly introduce Tam to Rand to force him to deal with his problems--absolutely. She used Tam to place him at the raggedy edge, to force him to decide whether to proceed beyond that edge, or step back from it.

 

Much that happened she didn't not intend or plan--but the general basis, forcing him to that edge so he had to step back from it--that was her through and through.

 

I can accept people not liking Cadsuane, but I hate when they don't give her her due. She may be a nasty piece of work, but she has done incredible amounts for Rand, and backed him to the hilt every time he's needed it.

 

That is shockingly reckless, if true, though i havent seen her say or think that.

 

Not reckless, a risk. One she reasoned very carefully, but a risk nonetheless. Which is why Tam was right to call her out.

 

If accurate, this might be the summit of Aes Sedai arrogant stupidity.

 

No. This was not stupidly undertaken. Cadsuane tested him, and then attempted to limit the dangers of correcting his problems, progressing at each stage only when she had to. Each excalation was planned, each risk undertaken with respect to the consequences versus the gain. Cadsuane was absolutely right to do what she did.

 

[Thor]

Too bad her pov clearly indicates that that was not what she did or planned.

 

Her PoV's show she did precisely that. She arrived and tested him. His reaction to her showing she knew things about his weaknesses was to freak out, which set her path. She had to force him. From there she tried to limit the pain she caused him. She tried withholding what he wanted (her advice), and it began to work, he agreed to be polite, but then he was incarcerated and he got worse and she had to progress to negative reinforcement, and it worked. She was able to get him to stand back from a tantrum in Tear, realise he was wrong. And then Semirhage happened.

 

That cut the bucket, it literally did the last that could be done. Cadsuane at the point had no option, she could either push him to the edge, push him off, and create what cushion she could, or she could wait for him to walk to the edge and jump with no cushion.

 

Her POV's mark this. Did she mean for Tam to anger Rand with the realisation that she was behind it? No. Did she mean for him to nearly kill Tam? No. Did she directly introduce Tam to Rand to force him to deal with his problems--absolutely. She used Tam to place him at the raggedy edge, to force him to decide whether to proceed beyond that edge, or step back from it.

 

Much that happened she didn't not intend or plan--but the general basis, forcing him to that edge so he had to step back from it--that was her through and through.

 

I can accept people not liking Cadsuane, but I hate when they don't give her her due. She may be a nasty piece of work, but she has done incredible amounts for Rand, and backed him to the hilt every time he's needed it.

 

 

Rand backed down in Tear only because of their agreement, an agreement he only made because of Min's words. You might as well go on and say that the Shadow wanted to push Rand to the edge so that the Light can win then.

 

While wearing a cowl running around in Arad Doman, Cadsuanne is clearly shown to be grasping at straws, she didn't have a clue what to do there.

[Luckers]

Rand backed down in Tear only because of their agreement, an agreement he only made because of Min's words. You might as well go on and say that the Shadow wanted to push Rand to the edge so that the Light can win then.

 

Rand backed down because he was wrong, a fact she forced him to admit, and a fact he appreciated, and followed up on.

 

While wearing a cowl running around in Arad Doman, Cadsuanne is clearly shown to be grasping at straws, she didn't have a clue what to do there.

 

Cadsuane was desperate, and the plan she concocted was thus desperate and risky, a fact she admitted. But she knew precisely what she was doing, and she succeeded.

[rhadamanthus]

Nice essay, Luckers - the rationalizations utilized are truly well constructed.

 

Of course, one could just as easily argue that Rand could have faced these demons as he had previous to Cadsuane's entrance into the story (sometimes well, sometimes not).  Cadsuane risked just about the entire world in an attempt to verify her preconcieved notions.

 

Pushing him over and over again may have gotten the end result she wanted, but we have absolutely nothing but conjecture by which to claim it was necessary.  Ergo, it was arrogant: Cadsuane had no intention of sizing up the situation and acting, she acted as if the situation was already well known to her.  It was also stupid: In pushing Rand unnecessarily, it is just as easy to argue that she isolates Rand further from his allies, not to mention risking him just casting it all away in rage and angst.

 

[Luckers]

Of course, one could just as easily argue that Rand could have faced these demons as he had previous to Cadsuane's entrance into the story (sometimes well, sometimes not).  Cadsuane risked just about the entire world in an attempt to verify her preconcieved notions.

 

Except, of course, Min states otherwise. In fact that's kind of the point--why must it be Cadsuane to teach Rand what he needed to learn... precisely because of the reason you all dislike her. Because no one else had the vision to percieve this path or the guts to enact it.

 

In any case, no. One cannot argue that Rand could have continued to deal as he did. Even Nynaeve and Min accepted that, in the end.

 

Pushing him over and over again may have gotten the end result she wanted, but we have absolutely nothing but conjecture by which to claim it was necessary.  Ergo, it was arrogant: Cadsuane had no intention of sizing up the situation and acting, she acted as if the situation was already well known to her.  It was also stupid: In pushing Rand unnecessarily, it is just as easy to argue that she isolates Rand further from his allies, not to mention risking him just casting it all away in rage and angst.

 

No, we have logic. And so did she. She tested him before she chose the methodology she employed. Other's tried other methodology, it failed.

 

Hate Cadsuane all you want, but don't rob her of her successes. She percieved the risk before anyone saw it, dared to do what no one else did, and as a result Rand was pulled back from total darkness. That is not conjecture, that occured within the story.

 

You may call her arrogant, rude, a bully. In reverse that is precisely what Rand needed, and therefore it was precisely what Cadsuane did, and that is why it needed to be her. No one else could have.

 

And, whilst your vilifying her for that, recall the things she did for him. She organised the defence that enabled his success at the Cleansing, despite her own misgivings. Without her, he would have been captured or killed, and the Cleansing forestalled. She freed him from Far Madding, fought by his side against Semrihage. She may have been a big meanie to him, but when the fight was happening she backed him to the hilt.

 

It was also stupid: In pushing Rand unnecessarily, it is just as easy to argue that she isolates Rand further from his allies, not to mention risking him just casting it all away in rage and angst.

 

It was not stupid. He would have done so sooner or later. Cadsuane pushed him off the ledge before he could jump. It was a risk, but the alternative was endless darkness--and if you won't take my word, take Nynaeve or Min's. This needed to occur. She had the balls to do it. And she succeeded.

[Vermillion]

She had the right idea but failed because she didn't bother to tell Tam the information he needed.  If Rand BF'ed Tam Rand would never have been the same.  The plan was to get Tam to pull Rand down from the edge not push him over it.  It was the typical AS need to know secrecy that might have cost existance. 

What she did put into place what happened but it was not her idea.  Its like me claiming success after trying to get someone who is going to commit suicide down.  Not by talking him down but by accidently causing him to leap off the edge and him ta'veren luck lands on his feet uninjured.

 

She had the right idea but the exucution was blotched by not giving enough detail on the situation putting Tam and everyone at great risk.  Rand could have bf Tam and every AS around him.

[Luckers]

She did tell Tam what to say, and he ignored her. Yes, it was a mistake on her part not to explain those strictures to him, but by the same note he actively decieved her--letting her think he would abide her instructions and then at the last minute going against her. Had he informed her of his intention to ignore her script she could have warned him.

 

But yes, I agree completely. It was oversight that she didn't see it coming, and given the stakes in play she deserved to be dressed down for not thinking of it--and she was. I never disagreed with that. But she did not fail. Due to her actions Rand came back to himself. Had she not acted he would have gone off the deep end. Her oversight risked her success, but ultimately it did not destroy it and she was successful anyway.

 

And that's the thing. As a direct result of her efforts, Rand was saved. No one else was making those efforts. There was no alterior course. Cadsuane made mistakes along the way--and hey, she's human--but ultimately she succeeded where no one else could.

[Vermillion]

I agree with what you said about her up til the part with Tam.  It comes down to the problem AS have in general true honesty.  Not stating how bad Rand off is and his attitude towards Cad is more than over sight, its failure.  Tam last talked to his young son a farm boy, not Emperor Darth Rand, the Dragon Reborn, etc.

 

Tam was put into a situation where he failed, thus Cad failed as well.  If I tried a trick play in football and it is a total failure and the ball is fumbled but some how ends in a score, it wasn't the play.  It was luck.  This was a situation that was a failure but unintended consiquences saved the situation... barely.

[rhadamanthus]

You may call her arrogant, rude, a bully. In reverse that is precisely what Rand needed, and therefore it was precisely what Cadsuane did, and that is why it needed to be her. No one else could have.

 

Every single Aes Sedai is arrogant, rude, and a bully to Rand up until he puts them in their place.  The only thing that made Cadsuane special in this regard is that she was intentionally doing it to provoke him.  Does that make her "special"?  Hardly.

 

As it pertains to Rand's metamorphosis, the only thing she did that was unique was involving Tam.  And that was only forced upon her after her previous techniques only isolated her from Rand, and Rand from everyone.

 

Note too that Tam is the only one who does not try to bully or force Rand, but rather reasons with him and provides friendly advice, free of any ulterior motive.  And, of course, this is effective at making Rand doubt the necessity of his "hardness".

 

Min and Nyneave think it was necessary, sure - only after Rand had gone off the deep end and there was no other real choice.  At the end, Min chastises Cadsuane (and all the Aes Sedai, more or less) for screwing everything up by "thinking you can control what he does" or whatever (precise quote alludes me).

 

Cadsuane fundamentally missed the opportunity to become Rand's friend and gain his trust because she tried to dictate the action to fit her preconceived path.  Moiraine did it right, she "remembered how to embrace saidar" (tFoH).

[Luckers]

I agree with what you said about her up til the part with Tam.  It comes down to the problem AS have in general true honesty.  Not stating how bad Rand off is and his attitude towards Cad is more than over sight, its failure.  Tam last talked to his young son a farm boy, not Emperor Darth Rand, the Dragon Reborn, etc.

 

Tam was put into a situation where he failed, thus Cad failed as well.  If I tried a trick play in football and it is a total failure and the ball is fumbled but some how ends in a score, it wasn't the play.  It was luck.  This was a situation that was a failure but unintended consiquences saved the situation... barely.

 

Again, no. Cadsuane didn't realise Tam would go against her instructions--this is partially Tam's fault, as he didn't raise his intention to ignore or go against her instruction--indeed he didn't even suggest he might do so--but yes, it's also hers.

 

However this is an oversite--a mistake. Not a failure. Despite her mis-step, her plan worked. By pushing him with an aspect of his past, a time when he was a better person, she forced him to realise that he'd stepped wrong, and he fixed himself. She did not fail. She always accepted the risk, that she might push him off the cliff entirely. She stated her awareness of that danger in her very first POV. She knew the risks when she took them, and she was absolutely right to take them.

 

People seem so desperate to cheapen what she's achieved. She's saved the world. Hate her, but respect that.

 

Every single Aes Sedai is arrogant, rude, and a bully to Rand up until he puts them in their place.  The only thing that made Cadsuane special in this regard is that she was intentionally doing it to provoke him.  Does that make her "special"?  Hardly.

 

No the thing that makes her special was that she was doing it only when it was necessary. And yes, she did only do it when it was necessary, and only to the degree that it was necessary. She only escalated when he got worse--after imprisonment in Far Madding, after Semirhage attacked him. She made a promise to him to only hurt him as much as she had to, and she kept that promise. She didn't do it because she could, or because she felt she was better, she did it because she had to for his own good, and yes, that makes her special.

 

As it pertains to Rand's metamorphosis, the only thing she did that was unique was involving Tam.  And that was only forced upon her after her previous techniques only isolated her from Rand, and Rand from everyone.

 

Rand isolated everyone from Rand, and she tried less painful techniques. They even began to work--then Far Madding, and later Semirhage happened, each time forcing her to up her game. But that doesn't change the fact that each technique was reasoned, each method intentionally designed to fit his temprement and aid him.

 

Note too that Tam is the only one who does not try to bully or force Rand, but rather reasons with him and provides friendly advice, free of any ulterior motive.  And, of course, this is effective at making Rand doubt the necessity of his "hardness".

 

And Tam nearly died for it. And that is not Cadsuane's fault, that is Rand's. Unless of course you wish to sustain that mentioning the name of someone you dislike is reason for attempted murder.

 

Min and Nyneave think it was necessary, sure - only after Rand had gone off the deep end and there was no other real choice.  At the end, Min chastises Cadsuane (and all the Aes Sedai, more or less) for screwing everything up by "thinking you can control what he does" or whatever (precise quote alludes me).

 

Cadsuane too only deemed in necessary after Rand had gone off the deep end. Prior to that she tried lesser tactics of behaviour modification. Delayed gratification and negative reinforcement. They were working, too, until Semirhage did what she did.

 

Min and Nyneave think it was necessary, sure - only after Rand had gone off the deep end and there was no other real choice.  At the end, Min chastises Cadsuane (and all the Aes Sedai, more or less) for screwing everything up by "thinking you can control what he does" or whatever (precise quote alludes me).

 

No, she did not, she directly tested Rand on the posibility and he flipped out. Moiraine's method would not have succeeded in dealing with this--and we know this as a fact. Rand believed in what he was coming, and we saw what happened when Moiraine tried to provide Rand with something other than what he wanted--he sent her outside and told her to be quiet.

 

You want people to be nice to Rand--that's understandable, he's the hero. He's put up with so much in favour of everyone else. But unfortunately nice would not have helped him. Cadsuane had the guts to percieve that, they guts to be mean where he needed her to be mean.

[farthammer]

What?  Rand didn't get to the part where he confronted his own darkness until Tam jumped off her script.  Then she gives him a saidar straight jacket because father and son  didn't follow her plan the way she wanted.  She was accidently successful the way Elaida was accidently successful before being raised Amyrlin.

[Luckers]

What?  Rand didn't get to the part where he confronted his own darkness until Tam jumped off her script.  Then she gives him a saidar straight jacket because father and son  didn't follow her plan the way she wanted.  She was accidently successful the way Elaida was accidently successful before being raised Amyrlin.

 

Actually no, he was starting to act more calmly. Tam jumping off script made it super-dramatic, but it was working before that--and in a much safer manner.

 

She didn't see Tam would jump off script. That was a mistake on her part. But the plan was working, and did work.