Taim's 'Escape', Joiya's 'Lies' and the Borderland 'Aes Sedai'

[Terez]

We all suspected Demandred had something to do with them before TGS.  Graendal's comment made us second-guess that; RJ never tells us huge secrets so straightforwardly.

[Byzantine279]

Honestly i think its a good theory, in fact all the evidence points to it...

 

Which is exactly why it is probally wrong, at this point it has become obvious that every time you think "x" must be true, it turns out that the "far less likely" "y" was. Which is why im not betting on this one, the theory is good but that means very little :(.

[mossman87]

Good theory, I agree with most of it.

[GB]

good theory, certainly plausible especially since there is Min's viewing and since the Tower is now under Egwene's control, then little chance of being the sisters there, which leaves the escaped Black, and the borderlander's army aes sedai.

 

my guess would be on those with the borderlander as well, and do we know what exactly is their purpose? i am not sure but during the ceremony they were united for a single purpose, and i might have missed something, do we know what that is?

[AzureSpecter]

I see no problem with your logic Luckers.  It makes sense in a lot of ways. The problem I have with the theory is the anti-climactic nature, transparency and stupidity of it from the standpoint of the Borderlanders and the alleged Black sisters with them. 

 

In other words -- assume as you've suggested that the 13 Black Ajah sisters latch onto the Borderlanders and eventually convince the Borderlanders to head to the Guardian where they can channel but Rand can't. 

 

This just seems way too transparent.  Rand is fully aware of the danger, he knows that the Borderlanders are being incredibly vague and suspicious with their desire to meet with him, and he has his own group of female channelers to protect him if need be even in the off-chance he goes to the Guardian (granted, the 13 Aes Sedai with the Borderlanders have no way of knowing that).

 

My question is - how could the Borderlanders think Rand would be stupid enough to place himself at their mercy with no protection, when the meeting place is obviously designed to achieve this end?  Why would they go through all this effort when they can reasonably expect Rand to simply refuse or require that the Borderlanders meet with some type of emissary instead of Rand directly (Lan would have been perfect for this)?  Such a tactic would obviously have a small chance of succeeding, but is it worth moving a 200,000-strong army halfway across the world to achieve? 

 

A scenario that would make this less anti-climactic would be that the renegade Black Ajah that escaped the Tower purge flee to their Black sisters in Far Madding instead of the Black Tower.  They would then have more than enough force to take out Rand's female channeler protection (although again, there is no way that 13 Black sisters could have predicted this type of windfall).

 

How could Perrin possibly save the day in such a scenario?  If any wolves were with him scouting the meeting place, they might mention "Young Bull - there are many Aes Sedai down there, many, many many, much more than 13".

 

I think that the idea for the borderlanders to confront rand was their original idea. The black sisters would have manipulated the rulers into going to Far Madding for many possible reasons. My theory is that they are following the "chaos" directive, and are trying to manipulate the borderlanders to cause problems. It's also likely that they are trying to get Rand to have a confrontation with the borderlanders. Why not have Rand take out his own potential followers? that's chaos. It seems more logical to me that these black borderlander sisters are just causing trouble, rather than trying to "lure" or "ambush" Rand. And seeing as how Rand almost wipes the entire army out with balefire in tGS, they seem to be doing a good job. Also, remember that the forsaken have been ordered to not kill rand, so we can assume that black sisters know this too.

[haloun]

i can definitely see this. the flaw with their thinking is that rand knows about wells, and has one... i do believe we saw him use a well in the stedding with the great stump, but i might be mistaken. anyways i like this one.

[Charlz Guybon]

Yeah, that was the scene. I can't see 12 Aes Sedai and 1000 guards being taken out quietly though. Would the timing be right to suggest they're still marching through the borderlands somewhere?

RJ/Sanderson probably forgot about them. The Aes Sedai with the Borderlanders didn't have 1,000 men with them.

[Hybrid]

What was the time frame between the order sending the 12/1000 after Taim and Siuan getting deposed? It's possible that order was never given.

[MKMlovesWOT]

I'm in the process of rereading ... I just finished Eye of the World and started The Great Hunt and wondered about the following:

In The Great Hunt, ch 8, The Dragon Reborn, where Rand has just been prepared by Lan and is about to be presented to the Amrylin Seat...

Leane makes a comment that she thought Rand was supposed to be a shepherd and she supposes that the blacksmith wears a crown and speaks in High Chant.

(at work without the book for the exact quote...)

 

In Eye of the World, we saw Moraine foreshadow Egwene becoming the Amrylin Seat. Perhaps Leane's comment is also foreshadowing that is about to come true?

[Byzantine279]

It likely is, MK, we know Perrin is very likely to get the broken crown (a min viewing). The high chant thing might be a reaction to finally accepting the wolf in him. I wonder how similar the situations between Perrin and Rand are, both needed to accept a part of themselves that they would rather deny (Rand was finally forced to, lets see how Perrin does).

[Cefwyn]

Taim is dead. He died long ago and Demandred took his place. End of story.

[Finnssss22]

Taim is dead. He died long ago and Demandred took his place. End of story.

 

Long ago, as in just after Winter's Heart?

[Luckers]

Taim is dead. He died long ago and Demandred took his place. End of story.

 

On the off chance you are not joking, Taim is not Demandred. This has been confirmed multiple times by Robert Jordan, and is also made clear in Winter's Heart.

[OptimusPrime]

Taim is dead. He died long ago and Demandred took his place. End of story.

 

Try Moridin and you wont get quite as many funny looks. Demandred only fits half the criteria, not to mention the aforementioned debunkage of Taimandred.

[herid]

This theory really ought to be updated to reflect ToM developments. Since this board is still ToM spoiler free I can not comment on that more.

 

Regardless, since this thread has bubbled up I want to comment on one aspect of this theory. I'm sure that the current Taim is not the original Taim. I believe that he is an impostor (either Moridin or Moridin's lieutenant) and the likely goal of Taim's kidnapping was to substitute him for the current Taim and place him near Rand.

 

My reasons are

1. Bashere does not recognize Taim when Taim first shows up. That's extremely suspicious all by itself. And not just because Bashere really ought to recognize him but from a storytelling point of view. If this is the original Taim why put something so strange into the story at all? It serves no purpose if that's the original Taim. The issue never comes up again and is not used for anything. And RJ said that very little in the books is done by accident.

2. Taim is very quick with an explanation that he shaved because it's so hot this far south.

 

Bashere took advantage of the silence. “You say you’re Mazrim Taim?” He sounded doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it was not his.

 

The prisoner’s mouth quirked in what might have been the beginning of a smile, and he rubbed his chin. “I shaved, Bashere.” His voice held more than a hint of mockery. “It is hot this far south, or had you not noticed?

 

-LoC, Ch 2

 

 

 

 

But that explanation doesn't make sense. In the same scene it's mentioned twice that he is not sweating.

 

The heat hardly seemed to touch him. The Maidens’ eyes followed his progress.

-LoC, Ch 2

and a bit later

 

Taim studied Rand a moment before speaking. Despite the heat, the fellow barely sweated.

-LoC, Ch 2

 

A few chapters later he teaches Rand the anti-sweating trick and Rand is quite happy about it.

 

At least he seemed to be getting the way of the mental trick Taim had shown him; sweat trickled down Bashere’s face, but the heat hardly touched Rand. He wore his silver-embroidered coat of gray silk buttoned to the neck, and if he felt a little warm, he did not sweat a drop. Taim assured him that in time he would not even feel heat or cold great enough to disable another man.

-LoC, Ch 10

 

The issue comes up a couple more times in the next few chapters when Taim discusses teaching the trick to other Asha'man. In short, Taim seems to be a real master of the anti-sweating technique so there is no reason for him to shave because of heat (and risk not being recognized on top of that).

3. Right after giving this phony reason for shaving Taim immediately diverts Bashere's attention by enraging him. Taunting Bashere is the last thing he should be doing in this situation if he is the real Taim. It's liable to get him killed on the spot. This is a diversion. And it works too as the shaving issue is quickly forgotten and Bashere is pissed and wants to go for Taim's throat.

 

 

Do you want proof of me? Shall I channel for you?” His dark eyes flickered to Rand, then back to Bashere, whose face was growing darker by the minute. “Perhaps not that, not now. I remember you. I had you beat at Irinjavar, until those visions appeared in the sky. But everyone knows that. What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim will?” Focused on Bashere, he seemed unaware of his guards, or their swords still hovering near his ribs. “I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives.” The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now. “They shouldn’t have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants? All they’ll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won’t be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers.”

 

“Taim,” Bashere growled, hand darting for his hilt, “you . . . !”

-LoC, Ch 2

Note that he even refers to himself in 3rd person in this explanation. And of course he'd be ready with an explanation like this. I'm sure that the original Taim was thoroughly "debriefed" once taken.

 

 

4. Taim's height seems to change overtime. In the original scene he is described to be slightly above middle height.

 

Tumad emerged into the sunlight first, then a black-haired man of slightly above average height whose dark face and tilted eyes, hooked nose and high cheekbones, marked him another Saldaean, though he was clean-shaven and garbed like a once prosperous Andoran merchant lately fallen on hard times. His dark blue coat had been of fine wool trimmed in darker velvet, but wear had made the cuffs ragged, his breeches bagged at the knee, and dust coated his cracked boots.

-LoC, Ch 2

 

 

But in Winterheart, when he is firmly established in the Black Tower, he is tall, almost as tall as Rand.

 

 

He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder’s deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light.

-Wh, prologue

 

It very much looks like he is using a power created disguise, hence the change in height. The original Taim would have absolutely no need for this.

[Luckers]

All of my theories will be updated for ToM when this board is opened for spoilers, which will be soonish.

[Cefwyn]

Taim is dead. He died long ago and Demandred took his place. End of story.

 

Long ago, as in just after Winter's Heart?

 

I must have missed the debunking of Taim as Demandred. When he says "let the Lord of Chaos rule"

I assumed He must be forsaken as they were the ones to get the message from DO...That was demandred

and the first appearanceof laughing half man.

[Luckers]

Taim is dead. He died long ago and Demandred took his place. End of story.

 

Long ago, as in just after Winter's Heart?

 

I must have missed the debunking of Taim as Demandred. When he says "let the Lord of Chaos rule"

I assumed He must be forsaken as they were the ones to get the message from DO...That was demandred

and the first appearanceof laughing half man.

 

 

In Winter's Heart Demandred encounters Damer Flinn during the cleansing and has no idea who he is--Taim knows Damer Flinn quite well. In addition there is also a scene where Kisman recalls recieving the same orders from Demandred, Taim and Moridin seperately, and also as if they did not know of the others giving the orders.

 

Granted, people would still have found ways to argue around that with the exception that Jordan himself spoke out quite a few times stating that Demandred was not Taim.

 

That being said I do believe that Taim was raised to the level of a Forsaken by Shaidar Haren. If you're interested in my work on Taim, you can find it in this thread: The Attack on Algarin's Manor

 

Scroll down to the 'it wasn't one of the Forsaken' subheading, and after that follows the information on Taim.

[herid]

ok, now that ToM spoilers are allowed here I want to comment on a couple of things.

It's now pretty clear that none of the borderlander Aes Sedai are Black. Rand was sure to test them before allowing anybody to teach them Traveling. He might not be as paranoid as the old Rand but he would have done at least that much. He seemed to discretely test out the Sitters (particularly the reds) when visiting Egwene in the Tower. Egwene remarks that he studied them and Barasine could meet his eyes without flinching.

as to who they might have been I would guess that they are either the ones sent by Siuan to hunt Taim or the ones sent by Elaida (if she sent any) to do the same.

Siuan at least did send some shortly before being deposed.

 

“It had to be some of his followers. Fools. Why won’t they know when they are beaten? Choose out a dozen reliable sisters, Leane . . . ” The Amyrlin grimaced. “Reliable,” she muttered. “If I knew who was more reliable than a silverpike, I’d not have the problems I do. Do the best you can, Leane. A dozen sisters. And five hundred of the guards. No, a full thousand.”

 

“Mother,” the Keeper said worriedly. “The Whitecloaks—”

 

“—would not try to cross the bridges if I left them unwatched entirely. They would be afraid of a trap. There is no telling what is going on up there, Leane. I want whoever I send to be ready for anything. And Leane . . . Mazrim Taim is to be gentled as soon as he is taken again.”

TSR, Ch 17

So Siuan sent 12 and they would be unlikely to include any Blacks given that Leane chose them.

 

They may have split into 5 and 7 to search for Taim. And then there was one Aes Sedai (Coladara) who was Paitar's advisor so that makes 13.

Of course, there is a question what happened to 1000 soldiers that went with them. They could be there with the borderlanders or maybe they stayed back somewhere, say, in Arafel.

 

It could also be that it's a combination of different parties, it's really too hard to say without more info.

[Terez]

You've been reading my articles again, eh?

[herid]

You've been reading my articles again, eh?

I have but not for this, I swear! did you write something about this?

[Terez]

You've been reading my articles again, eh?

I have but not for this, I swear! did you write something about this?

In the Demandred article. I know you read that one. We even had an argument about it, as I recall...it's okay, though. We'll go with subliminal influence.

[herid]

You've been reading my articles again, eh?

I have but not for this, I swear! did you write something about this?

In the Demandred article. I know you read that one. We even had an argument about it, as I recall...it's okay, though. We'll go with subliminal influence.

that's likely what it was.

I definitely did read that article but it's very long and I must admit I skimmed over a few sections. I still can't recall if I read the part about Borderlander Aes Sedai but I certainly may have. I do swear that I remembered nothing of it when I was writing the post above. I do try to give credit to others when I borrow from something from their theories. Anyway, my main point was to say that they are not Black and then I just thought it might be the search party sent to retake Taim. I found the reference to Siuan's search party. The reference to Coladara I just took from Luckers' post that started the thread. I couldn't quickly find anything about Elaida sending a search party of her own so I just left it at that.