Stilling/Gentling & Healing = Forsaken tamed

[Scaw]

One thing happens repeatedly in the books: a forsaken is captured and then forced to teach the good guys secret knowledge. The argument against killing/stilling one of the forsaken is always that much knowledge can be gained by keeping them alive and powerful, but in the end they always escape and cause more trouble.

 

So far, so good (or bad in terms of repeating and therefore expectable and boring plot elements).

 

But here is the deal: It is known since LoC that gentling can be healed. One of the side-effects of healing (at least when done by the same sex) is that one is much weaker in power.

Why has this never been used as an advantage?

 

1. You capture a bad guy that is difficult to control (forsaken, black ajah, damanae).

2. You still/gentle that person. 

3. You heal him/her

4. You have a weak channeler that poses only a minor threat power wise but is a good teacher (holds true for the forsaken at least).

 

This should definitely have been done to Semirhage, maybe to some of the black ajah. I don't know if any other forsaken have been captured since LoC, but several have been killed since where that would have been an option.

 

It also has the nice advantage over killing that the DO cannot resurrect somebody who is alive but weak and it does not dissolve the pattern as balefire does.

 

Is it that nobody came up with this yet? Is it that RJ simply overlooked this possibility?

[Vermillion]

It's probably because the characters never discuss such things.

[yoniy0]

I'm not sure it will help that much. There's a theory that that was exactly what happened to Cyndane, and as you can see she isn't tamed. If you search a bit, you'll find peoples' explanation of why Siuan seemed so weak which Cyndane's still pretty powerful.

[Scaw]

Cyndane is an entirely different case. It is not even really known that she was stilled and also not in which way.

 

Of all the theories that I know of relating to her new power level, for me it is most convincing that the Fins fed of her power while she was with them and this is why she is a little weaker.

[yoniy0]

It doesn't matter if you agree that burning out is what caused her decreased strength. The people who proposed that theory explain how that sort of thing wouldn't make a Forsaken considerably weaker than he/she currently is.

[MikeRiley]

The good guys still see stilling as a terrible thing. They would likely compare it to the worst kind of torture and would not stoop to that level. Better to execute in that case. Even Egwene couldn't bring herself to still one of the Black Ajah in the Dragon Reborn (at least I think that's the scene). The sharp point of the flow was sub-consciously made blunt. It's just something they want no part of.

[csarmi]

I've got better.

 

1) Severe.

2) Heal.

3) Make them swear on the oath rod whatever you wish. Use compulsion or threats, if needed.

 

Note that you only need the first two steps on someone who has some binding oaths taken.

 

Note, that it's just the thing they should have used on the black ajah members. But they don't see the oath rod as something to bind criminals with, unfortunately.

[Sid]

We've known since LOC that healing a stilled woman with Saidar will not restore them to their previous strength in the power.  We've surmised since WH or CoT that a stilled woman healed with Saidin will restore them to their previous strength in the power.  Coupled with Nyneave's healing Logain to full strength we can conclude that men must heal women and vice versa if they are to retain their previous strength in the power.

 

Now, I don't believe that there's anyone in the entire series that knows all of the above details.  Damer Flinn and Nyneave have been in the same places for quite awhile now, but I don't think they've talked much, if at all.  Cadsuane is good at putting facts like this together and making the right conclusions, but I doubt Nyneave has mentioned she healed Logain to her.  So out of everyone, Damer Flinn, Nyneave, and Cadsuane are the most likely people to figure out at some point what we've known since LOC, and they probably have other things on their minds.  Plus, you know, communication is a big no-no in any situation in Randland....

[TheAngryDruid]

I think that is about to change.

 

1) Who knows about Nynaeve's healing of Logain and Siuan/Nyneave?

 

a) Siuan/Leane = Everyone in Salidar.

b) Logain = Egwene, Siuan.

 

The Red and Gray Ajah's know he is healed (KoD Pro), but not by whom. Gray knowledge limited, is is Red's, in all probability.

 

2) Who knows Damer healed Irgain, Ronaille, and Sashelle?

 

a) Corele, Cadsuane (Irgain, WH. Ch 13). + others in Cairhein?

 

b) Verin (in all probability), who is there at the time and working closely with the Sisters in the WO camp, and the WO's. She wonders openly why the 3 are treated differently (PoD, Prelude). Plus, I believe she is in the room in WH 13 when Corele tells Cadsuane about Damer healing Irgain.

 

c) Samitsu (Sashelle & Ronaille, ACOS, Prelude). Young face, not ageless, what else has changed. Different status with WO's. (CoT, Prelude).

 

d) Alanna + Rand + others (WH 25). Alanna tells Rand Damer healed Irgain, Sashalle, and Ronaille.

 

e) The Red Ajah. Sashalle sends them a letter telling them of Damer's healing (KoD, Prologue). Pevara learns this in a meeting with Tsutama (Highest) and Javindra (other Sitter, dark one?).

 

f) Many of the Wise Ones

 

g) The Yellow is close. Can't find the quote, but I believe they sent Sisters to investigate "events in Cairhein" and this is highly suggestive.

 

=====================================================

 

So, the upshot is, there are a sisters at the Tower who either know about Logain being healed by Nynaeve (Egwene, Siuan) OR Damer healing the sisters to full strength (Some Red, Gray, and in all probability, Yellows). If the Red hierarchy knew, maybe Silviana does too?

 

Plus some many or Rand's sworn sisters (Alanna at least) know. And a lot of Cadsuane's group (Samitsu, Corele) know. Plus the other sworn sisters themselves, and the WO's. And some of the Asha'man as well.

 

Plus Verin knew. A tasty tidbit for a letter.

 

Either through sharing info (Ajah heads, Egwene, the tower) a meeting (Cadsuane's group, sworn sisters (including Irgain, Sashalle, or Ronaille themselves), with Tower sisters), or Verin's letter, the truth is about to come out.

 

Heck, Egwene is going to want to recall all the sister's who haven't passed the BA test yet. When the three show up, don't you think someone will ask, gee, weren't you stilled and now are at full strength, how'd that happen?

 

 

[Scaw]

It doesn't matter if you agree that burning out is what caused her decreased strength. The people who proposed that theory explain how that sort of thing wouldn't make a Forsaken considerably weaker than he/she currently is.

I know that argument about the range of channelers among Aes Sedai and it has been proven to be false. (the argument: AS are all pretty much the same power wise, so it appears to them subjectively that they are weak while they are not objectively)

Fact is the stilled AS are very weak and they do not only appear so in comparison to other AS, they are less than half their former strength. That has been confirmed by Maria.

 

@mike

I can see that they regard it as a terrible thing, but

a) why has nobody even thought of it?

b) torture and other terrible things are done fairly frequently

 

 

[Solmyr]

I'm quite sure that no more than a handful of characters know the difference between a woman and a man healing a woman or vice versa. Those who do have their hands full. Most others hardly believe stilling can be healed, let alone ponder on such possibilities.

 

The Oath Rod is not exactly readily available for use. Egwene only took the tower in the last chapters of TGS. And since then the Rod hasn't been idle either.

 

Last but not least most characters lack creativity. The only creative characters, idea-wise, I've seen so far are: Rand and Mat. And Mat often gambles his way into major breakthroughs.

[yoniy0]

I know that argument about the range of channelers among Aes Sedai and it has been proven to be false. (the argument: AS are all pretty much the same power wise, so it appears to them subjectively that they are weak while they are not objectively)

Fact is the stilled AS are very weak and they do not only appear so in comparison to other AS, they are less than half their former strength. That has been confirmed by Maria.

Not so. You have no way of estimating linearity or lack thereof in relative strengths (RJ had a 20 steps system, but nothing was said on the differences between adjacent levels). Nor do we know if the strength decrease is constant or relative to one's own potential. A decrease equal to half of Siuan's original potential could mean very little in Forsaken terms.

[Sharaman]

RJ said that cross gender healing pretty much left the healed channeler at the former strength. Hence Nyn=Logain worked and so did Flynn's trio better than Nyn-Suian/ Leane.

Also, Yoniy0 is quite right - you can't tell how much of a difference it would make, 

[PatsNats28]

On a related note, whenever Siuan and Damer happen to be in the same place, why don't they just re-still her and let Damer heal her stilling?

[MikeRiley]

It might just put her back at her new strength. The effects might be permanent. Also, stilling is still considered something so bad an Aes Sedai could puke just from thinking of it so it's highly unlikely they would go for that. Then you also come into the problem where it might not be something that can be Healed twice, for whatever reason.

 

It's just a subject channelers want to avoid at all costs. Nynaeve was the odd one that wanted to confront the issue which was never confronted since the dawn of the use of the Power.