Fully healing Siuan and Leane

[navahgar]

Does anyone else think that, before the final battle, Siuan and Leane will be fully healed of their stilling?  I understand that the stilling was a major character development point for them, but wouldn't it be better for the good guys if these two were at full strength.  My guess is that they'd have to be stilled again before they could be healed by a man, but maybe that's not true, and Damer (or someone else) can just complete the imperfect healing that Nynaeve did.

[csarmi]

It's not possible to heal them any further. Not anymore. They're screwed.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

Well, we don't actually know what would happen if they were severed again, and Healed by a male channeler.  Also, the finality of Healing (the idea that, once Healed, something can't be more Healed) seems to be a misconception attached to the old Aes Sedai notion of one-weave-fits-all Healing.  The Forsaken in particular talk about incremental Healing as a possibility, which fits quite nicely with Nynaeve's (and Damer's) more flexible weave approach.  So, I wouldn't write the possibility off.

 

That said, I don't think Siuan and Leane will be further Healed, or at least, that it is not important for them to be further Healed.  Either to them or to the story.

[navahgar]

That said, I don't think Siuan and Leane will be further Healed, or at least, that it is not important for them to be further Healed.  Either to them or to the story.

 

You don't think there would be a certain completion to her personal story if Siuan recovered her full powers, but maintained the dignity and perspective she's gained as a weak channeller.

[Thor]

That said, I don't think Siuan and Leane will be further Healed, or at least, that it is not important for them to be further Healed.  Either to them or to the story.

 

You don't think there would be a certain completion to her personal story if Siuan recovered her full powers, but maintained the dignity and perspective she's gained as a weak channeller.

 

No I don't.

 

Anyways if you really want to heal them 'fully' so badly, go sever them again first.

[HornOfValere]

Siuan has really grown on me. She's a far cry from the Amyrlin we first met oh so many books ago!

 

I feel bad that she and Leane haven't regained all their powers, which in many ways doesn't make sense because I feel that Logain seems to have come back fine from his stilling (he's still incredibly powerful isn't he?), so maybe there is a chance for Siuan and Leane.

 

However, I wouldn't risk stilling them again, who knows what could happen a second time. It's a bit annoying that Siuan can't even make a gateway though. She needs to get some of those angreal from the tower for permanent keeps!!

[jcatt]

I believe the reason for Logain's full recovery and the women's partial recovery is because Nyneave uses Fire and Spirit to bridge the gap on all three. I believe women have to be healed using Spirit definately and either Wind or Water. It makes sense when you think about how things r almost always done different for men and women why would healing being stilled be any different. It also makes sense if you recall when she heals logain she does it by instinct(or the pattern shaping her actions) so she heals him the proper way for a male. Then she when she does it to the women she is not doing it by instinct she is doing what she just learned on logain. I dont think they described how the ashaman healed the stilled aes sedai but i believe he will end up showing nyneave her error.

[aunt_pol]

We had this convo on another thread a year ago, I think. IMO, losing the Power was Siuan's real punishment, if you like, for all her scheming and plotting. She in her time, didn't seem to do much to unite the Tower, or even to prepare for TG.

 

While a full strength Siuan and Leane would be a huge bonus for the Light, I think it'd feel a little like cheating, somehow, for them to be fully restored.

 

FWIW, I'd say if Damer got at them he'd find a way to finish the job.

[Suttree]

I feel bad that she and Leane haven't regained all their powers, which in many ways doesn't make sense because I feel that Logain seems to have come back fine from his stilling (he's still incredibly powerful isn't he?), so maybe there is a chance for Siuan and Leane.

 

I always though to be brought back to full strength a woman had to heal a man and vice versa. Could be wrong though, we do have Nynaeve's musings on how men and women are diff and need to be healed as such.

[Suttree]

I feel bad that she and Leane haven't regained all their powers, which in many ways doesn't make sense because I feel that Logain seems to have come back fine from his stilling (he's still incredibly powerful isn't he?), so maybe there is a chance for Siuan and Leane.

 

I always though to be brought back to full strength a woman had to heal a man and vice versa. Could be wrong though, we do have Nynaeve's musings on how men and women are diff and need to be healed as such.

 

Yeah found this quote from RJ

 

"For Alys Kinch, the Healing of stilling must be done by the other gender to be fully effective.  A woman Healing a woman or a man Healing a man results in less than full restoration.  It all ties into that theme I keep harping on.  Men and women have to work together to be their most effective.  And while the weave used by Flinn for Healing is not exactly that used by Nynaeve, either would use the same weave on a man or a woman."

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

You don't think there would be a certain completion to her personal story if Siuan recovered her full powers, but maintained the dignity and perspective she's gained as a weak channeller.

 

I don't, actually.  Siuan's story has lead her to Gareth Bryne, not back to her previous stature in the Power.  Leane, too, has made a place for herself as she is.  I think that in personal terms, they are actually both better for their experience.  They've both realized, at least to some extent, that their identity is not completely tied up in their strength with the One Power.

 

Actually, I think that their example and connection to Egwene may be instrumental in helping her, over time, dismantle the current idiocy of the strength-based unspoken (and unspeakable) hierarchy among Aes Sedai.  Nynaeve will likely be a big part of that as well.  Not that I think we're likely to see any of that in the books, its more of a "probably in the future" thing.

[TheAngryDruid]

While I do not think it is important to the story for either to be fully healed, I'll make two points.

 

1) We know that both of them want it.

 

Siuan went back to Nyneave and asked her to try again. Now, at the point in the story, a full strength Siuan would have been problematic, she'd have wanted to be Amyrlin again, not help Egwene.

 

But now, that isn't a problem.

 

2) It's the last battle, all hands on deck.

 

Siuan is still one of the stronger channelers aroud at full strength. Other than the wondergirls, and Cadsuane, she's the strongest the Tower has (now that Elaida is gone). And Leane is close behind her.

 

If you were Egwene and discovered two of your most trusted and valued friends and allies in the tower (Siuan and Leane) could regain their full powers and aid the struggle against the Shadow (especially the ability to Travel), wouldn't you take advantage of it? It would be almost negligent not to.

 

So, yes, I do think they will be healed fully, or the attempt will at least be made. It could also come about in regards to Moiraine, who could be stilled/burned out when rescued. If she goes right back to Rand instead of to the Tower (as seems likely), then she'd be healed by Flinn, not a woman. Word would then get out, if it hadn't already due to the 3 who were stilled at Dumai's Wells being at full strength.

 

 

 

[HornOfValere]

While I do not think it is important to the story for either to be fully healed, I'll make two points.

 

1) We know that both of them want it.

 

Siuan went back to Nyneave and asked her to try again. Now, at the point in the story, a full strength Siuan would have been problematic, she'd have wanted to be Amyrlin again, not help Egwene.

 

:-D I was thinking of this earlier!

 

I wonder if they do run into an Asha'man they will give it a try and either finish the rest of the healing weave on them both or tell them they would have to be stilled for him to try it fresh.

 

I do agree that Siuan's way of thinking would have changed drastically had she been restored back to her full power so in the meantime I would like to think that she might take an angreal or two to help her in the Last Battle.

 

Speaking of, it's always wound me up that the White Tower seem to think they have the last say on anyone who can channel and objects to do with chanelling. This arrogance and ignorance have been a huge part of their downfall. Is it a wonder that men that can channel hate them and people like the Seanchan want to collar them?

 

Hopefully the presence of Asha'man with take away this ridiculous atitude and unify them with the rest of the world instead of thinking their job is to run it. Fools.

[Hadilmir]

/ = Saidar attracting and Saidin repelling

\ = Saidin attracting and Saidar repelling

> = OP

 

Imagine a straw, made of a force that repels Saidin for men and a force that repels Saidar for women

 

Woman healing Man:

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

 

Woman healing Woman:

\ \ \ \ \ \ / / / / \ \ \ \ \

>>>>>^^^^> > >

>>>>>vvvv> > >

\ \ \ \ \ \ / / / / \ \ \ \ \

 

Saidar repels Saidin, so a bridge made of Saidar will function exactly the same as the natural force in a man.

Saidar attracts Saidar, so a bridge made of Saidar will draw some of the Saidar out and back out of the 'straw', allowing roughly half of it to pass through to the channeller. Stilled channelers have no bridge, and all of the OP leaks out through the gap in the 'straw'.

 

Just throwing this out there.

[Lambada]

/ = Saidar attracting and Saidin repelling

\ = Saidin attracting and Saidar repelling

> = OP

 

Imagine a straw, made of a force that repels Saidin for men and a force that repels Saidar for women

 

Woman healing Man:

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

 

Woman healing Woman:

\ \ \ \ \ \ / / / / \ \ \ \ \

>>>>>^^^^> > >

>>>>>vvvv> > >

\ \ \ \ \ \ / / / / \ \ \ \ \

 

Saidar repels Saidin, so a bridge made of Saidar will function exactly the same as the natural force in a man.

Saidar attracts Saidar, so a bridge made of Saidar will draw some of the Saidar out and back out of the 'straw', allowing roughly half of it to pass through to the channeller. Stilled channelers have no bridge, and all of the OP leaks out through the gap in the 'straw'.

 

Just throwing this out there.

Thaqt's about right....

although

" so a bridge made of Saidar will function exactly the same as the natural force in a man."

Did make me laugh at the image of Siuan channeling saidin.

[Paerish Swar]

Expanding on Hadilmir's post . . .

 

(I must first admit that I have the worst, most insignificant understanding of physics and electronics.)

 

but in the case of the OP and the “structures” within a channeler that allow him/her to use it, I have always thought of it as an electrical circuit.  To explain my theory I need to first offer this basic diagram of a (DC) circuit:

 

                -----------------------------

                |                <--                    |

                |                                          |

        +  -----                                      \ 

              --                                        /

Source  -----                                    \  Load

        _    --                                        /

                |                                          |

                |                -->                    |

                -----------------------------

 

I believe that the only way that someone can touch the True Source is if they have within them a complete “circuit.”

 

To better explain how I see this, I have to discuss what stilling, gentling, and burning out are.

 

 

Stilling and Gentling

 

 

Obviously for a woman the “Source” in the diagram above would be Saidar, and for a man it would be Saidin.  Now, imagine that the negative terminal of the source runs through the bottom portion of the circuit into the individual (“Load”).  This is the portion of the circuit through which the power flows into the channeler.

 

But for any electrical circuit to work, there must also be a circuit that flows back through to the positive terminal of the Source.  Power can only flow through and power the Load if both portions of the circuit are whole and present.

 

Here's where I take a little leap . . . Imagine if the bottom portion of the circuit is “embedded” or “insulated” in some way – it is not easily accessible.  My theory would require that when a man or woman is gentled or stilled, what is actually being cut is the upper portion of the circuit.  My assumption is that it is more “exposed” or open in some way.

 

When someone is stilled or gentled, they are unable to touch the Source, but are still able to sense it.  So, there must still exist some sort of link to it.  If only one half of the complete circuit is cut, that could explain why they can still sense the Source.

 

 

Burning Out

 

 

In the case of Burning Out, I think of this as some kind of “overload.”  When this type of event occurs, not only is the top portion of the circuit fried, but the bottom, “embedded” portion is as well.  That is why someone who has burned out can neither touch, nor sense the Source – no portion of the circuit still exists in a function state.

 

 

What Nynaeve and Damer's Healing Might Tell Us

 

 

We know that when Nynaeve healed Logain he was restored to full strength.  When Damer healed the Aes Sedai from Dumai's Wells, they were also resotred to full strength.  Curiously, when Nynaeve “healed” Siuan and Leane they were not restored to full strength.  Why might this be?

 

Review the circuit diagram above, and also try to remember how Saidin and Saidar work.  They are opposites (with opposite polarities?)  that push and pull together to turn the Wheel of Time.  They are separate, but related.

 

Here's another leap . . . Now, I am not saying that for a woman the bottom portion of the circuit is made of Saidar and the top portion of the circuit made of Saidin, or that for a man the bottom portion of the circuit is made of Saidin and the top portion of the circuit made of Saidar . . . but imagine if the bottom portion of the circuit has an “affinity” for the half of the True Source according to gender.  And conversely, the top half of the circuit has a similar “affinity” for the opposite gendered half of the True Source.

 

When a woman is stilled, according to my theory, only the top portion of the circuit is broken, and that portion has an affinity for Saidin.  When a man is gentled, the top portion of the circuit is broken, and that portion has an affinity for Saidar.  So . . .

 

When Nynaeve heals Logain, her weave (made of Saidar) is a more accurate replication of the original circuit.  When Damer heals the Aes Sedai in Cairhien, his weave (made of Saidin) was a more accurate replication of the original circuit.

 

When Nynaeve heals Siuan and Leane, her weave of Saidar is not an accurate replication of the original circuit.  It is not comparable to the original, therefore it may have sever limitations (such as reducing the amount of power that can flow through).

 

 

Linking:  A Support for the Theory

 

 

I have always been curious as to how men and women are even able to link at all, and why it has to be done in the way that it does.

 

If we accept that there is some aspect to the circuit inherent in the channeler that has an affinity to the opposite half of the source, that could explain why men and woman could link.  Without that affinity, there is no route by which the two powers can be used similtaneously.

 

But . . . another leap . . . I would say that each of the two powers represent different types of current.  Let me compare Saidar to Alternating Current (AC) and Saidin to Direct Current (DC).  I make this comparison because AC is more flexible in that it regularly and constantly changes amplitude and polarity.  It can convert incoming power and outgoing power without significant loses of power.  If this assertion about the nature of Saidar is correct, it could explain why a woman's weaving of Saidar is generally more dextrous than a man's weaving of Saidin (as RJ has revealed to us).

 

It could also explain why women can link by themselves (but only up to 13).  The existence of that inherent flexibility allows for a female to female link, and the lack of the same in men explains their inability to do the same.

 

I won't go into the specifics of the makeup and expanding of linked circles, but I think it you look at the numbers required in mixed circles of different sizes you will see how this comparison can be adequately explained by the theory.

 

 

How Does This Bode for Siuan and Leane

 

 

Since Siuan and Leane were “healed” with an imperfect bridge made of Saidar (which I contest has no inherent affinity for Saidin, at least in this respect), if they are to ever to recover their full strength they must have the bridge destoyed and have a male channeler create a bridge with Saidin.

 

Since the bridge is already artificial, and the “embedded” portion of their “circuit” is still intact, I think that it could be quite easy for the Saidar bridge to be cut, and then be replaced by Damer's weave/bridge to restore them to full power.

 

Unfortunately, in Siuan's case, I think that she will have to temporarly pass Gareth Bryne's bond to another (perhaps Leane) until after the proceedure  is completed.  I believe that the Warder Bond would be broken in the process of destroying the bridge (I won't try to explain that here, but I think there is solid evidence for others to pick apart to support this), but once Siuan is fully restored she can retake the Bond and continue on her merry way.

 

 

Can Siuan and Leane link with a Man?

 

 

This may seem strange, but at this moment I think not.  Since their bridges are made of Saidar (having no inherent affinity to Saidin in this physical system), I would contend that there is no affinity through which a female to male link could occur.  Once again, here is another instance of RJ's assertions that men and women need each other and are at their strongest working with each other.  Everything is stronger, more viable, more significant when the dual relationship is embraced and empowered (between men and women, and within men and women).

 

I know this is a weird assertion on my part, but I really think that if Siuan or Leane tried to link with a man they would find it impossible.

 

 

The Halima Variation

 

 

How can the soul of a male Forsaken channel Saidin while in the body of a woman?

 

If the female body we now call Halima was a Wilder, and could channel before her body was used to ressurect Balthamel, she would have nearly identical structures in herself as a man who could channel.

 

Halima, channeling Saidin, probalby would not be using that circuit in exactly the same way as she would have as a female channeling Saidar, but there is nothing that says that the circuit itself would not be able to handle it (in my theory, at least).

 

 

Conclusions for Siuan and Leane

 

 

I absolutely believe that they can be restored to full strength.  It will require their Saidar bridges to be broken first, and then to be replaced by Saidin bridges.  (I can't say exactly why, but I don't think that a Saidin bridge can be placed along side the Saidar.  I think they would disrupt each other, or compete with each other, or short each other out or something.)

 

It will really be just a matter of Nynaeve and Damer comparing notes and putting in a little thought.

 

The real question is if I think this will happen over the course of the next two books.  Honestly . . . I don't know, but I would venture a guess at that being a big, “No.”  I don't think there is enough time to play this out in a satisfactory way.

 

 

Shall I Speak of Setalle Anan?

 

 

Why the heck not!

 

Setalle was burned out, not stilled.  If my theory is correct that means that she has both portions of her “circuit” fried, the “outer/exposed” and the “embedded/insulated” portions.

 

If the outer portion has an affinity to Saidin, then that could be replecated by Damer's weave; but, the inner portion shouldn't be affected by Nynaeve's weave.  At the very least, the placement of the weave must be in a different place.  Perhaps the weave itself is correct (though I would not necessarily bet on that), but it must still be targeted to a different region of the “circuit.”

 

So, it should take two different weaves in two different places to restore someone who is burned out.  Can Nynaeve (and Damer) figure this out?

 

That . . . I would put money on, because they are frickin awesome!

 

 

 

That's enough for me, I guess.

 

 

 

Chip . . . chip . . . chip away, ya'll.