A new Champion of the Light.

[Shadow Rider]

I have read that RJ stated for the Light to win The Dragon & The Champion of The Light must fight on the same side. In the previous Era, Elan Morin Tedronai was The CotL and went over to the Shadow becoming Ishamael.

Was Ishamael still the CotL? or did Ishy stop being the CotL?

If Ishy stopped being the CotL could the Wheel then choose another CotL?

If so, my money is on Lan.

 

What do you think?

[Luckers]

Umm. RJ never said that. Ishamael was never the Champion of the Light. The Champion of the Light is not a real thing, but rather a coined phrase to refer to the Dragon soul, which should not be named the Dragon since that was Lews Therin's political title and had nothing to do with the fact that his soul was spun out to face the Shadow.

[mossman87]

What in the world is going on here

[Shadow Rider]

Really?...how come I keep seeing it come up?

[DocBean]

there are so many things wrong with this thread, that I don't know where to start.

 

RJ never said that stuff. He did say that Rand's soul had gone over to the shadow in the past, and that those ages ended in a draw.

Other ages always end with the Light winning, because if the Dark One ever wins, it's the end game.

 

 

However, if Rand were to go over to the shadow (which he won't now), then I do think others would step in and take up the fight for the light.

Moridin is tied closely to Rand, and it's possible that he would switch over.

 

Demandred hates Lews so much that he might change sides.

 

As for the good guys, I'd say Lan is as good as a guy can get, but just can't do what needs to be done.

Logain on the other hand has greatness written all over him.  ;)

[Duskfire]

Well I imagine thats one of the many reasons why there are three ta`veren; if any were to join the dark side so to speak, there would still be the other two for the Pattern to focus on as a focal point. Probably even more so then.

 

Anyway Shadow Rider, its been theorised by some that Ishamael was a Champion of the Light in the past and he was one of those Champions that turned to the dark side. However RJ himself has never confirmed anything like that.

[algspkr]

RJ never said that stuff. He did say that Rand's soul had gone over to the shadow in the past, and that those ages ended in a draw.

Other ages always end with the Light winning, because if the Dark One ever wins, it's the end game.

 

 

Can you provide the quote please.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

WoT would reach godtier status if after all this buildup Rand goes over to the shadow, corrupted by elsa who supposedly is going to be the reason of his death.

[Suttree]

RJ never said that stuff. He did say that Rand's soul had gone over to the shadow in the past, and that those ages ended in a draw.

Other ages always end with the Light winning, because if the Dark One ever wins, it's the end game.

 

 

Can you provide the quote please.

 

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

[The Desert Pea]

Umm. RJ never said that. Ishamael was never the Champion of the Light. The Champion of the Light is not a real thing, but rather a coined phrase to refer to the Dragon soul, which should not be named the Dragon since that was Lews Therin's political title and had nothing to do with the fact that his soul was spun out to face the Shadow.

 

Is the "Dragon" soul really the Champion of the Light though? I recall in an interview that RJ said that the Light's Champion was not always the Dragon soul, that it could be a Hero of the Horn or someone similar. Couldn't the Dragon soul be more of a wildcard rather than automatically Light or Shadow? If it was simply the Champion of the Light then the Shadow would have killed Rand long ago so the Light would have no Champion/figurehead/leader/whatever you want to call it. Looking at it that way, it seems that Rand's soul is a wildcard that one side needs to control if they hope to truly win.

[lews reborn]

RJ never said that. He only said that the dragon reborn is not necessarily the champion of light. since ishy/moridin was known as betrayer of hope it led people to believe while he walked in the light he was champion of light. hopefully hel go back to the light, it would be a cracker of a scene!

[Hadilmir]

Ishamael was never the Champion of the Light. The Champion of the Light is not a real thing, but rather a coined phrase to refer to the Dragon soul, which should not be named the Dragon since that was Lews Therin's political title and had nothing to do with the fact that his soul was spun out to face the Shadow.

Umm. RJ never said that.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Ishamael was never the Champion of the Light. The Champion of the Light is not a real thing, but rather a coined phrase to refer to the Dragon soul, which should not be named the Dragon since that was Lews Therin's political title and had nothing to do with the fact that his soul was spun out to face the Shadow.

Umm. RJ never said that.

 

The Dragon was the title given to Lews Therin Telamon in the Age of Legends. The Champion of the Light is a phrase used to describe Lews Therin's/Rand's soul, which is the Champion the Creator chose to defend mankind. He is spun out everytime there is a "Last Battle". Every battle with the Shadow is the "Last Battle" because if they lose, its game over. If its a draw, or if the Light wins, its just the start of a new game.

[Hadilmir]

The Dragon was the title given to Lews Therin Telamon in the Age of Legends. The Champion of the Light is a phrase used to describe Lews Therin's/Rand's soul, which is the Champion the Creator chose to defend mankind. He is spun out everytime there is a "Last Battle". Every battle with the Shadow is the "Last Battle" because if they lose, its game over. If its a draw, or if the Light wins, its just the start of a new game.

 

IIRC, RJ has said the Champion of Light and the Dragon are not always the same person. So, RJ never said that.

[Suttree]

The Dragon was the title given to Lews Therin Telamon in the Age of Legends. The Champion of the Light is a phrase used to describe Lews Therin's/Rand's soul, which is the Champion the Creator chose to defend mankind. He is spun out everytime there is a "Last Battle". Every battle with the Shadow is the "Last Battle" because if they lose, its game over. If its a draw, or if the Light wins, its just the start of a new game.

 

IIRC, RJ has said the Champion of Light and the Dragon are not always the same person. So, RJ never said that.

 

I've always wondered about that. Could you provide the quote so I could check it out? Thanks!

[Paerish Swar]

The Dragon was the title given to Lews Therin Telamon in the Age of Legends. The Champion of the Light is a phrase used to describe Lews Therin's/Rand's soul, which is the Champion the Creator chose to defend mankind. He is spun out everytime there is a "Last Battle". Every battle with the Shadow is the "Last Battle" because if they lose, its game over. If its a draw, or if the Light wins, its just the start of a new game.

 

IIRC, RJ has said the Champion of Light and the Dragon are not always the same person. So, RJ never said that.

 

I've always wondered about that. Could you provide the quote so I could check it out? Thanks!

 

I probably should not even join this very confusing discussion, because I don't have the appropriate quote on hand to reference; but,

 

I thought what RJ simply said was that the Champion of the Light is not always called "the Dragon" in each Age he is spun out.

[Hadilmir]

I probably should not even join this very confusing discussion, because I don't have the appropriate quote on hand to reference; but,

 

I thought what RJ simply said was that the Champion of the Light is not always called "the Dragon" in each Age he is spun out.

You may be right, I'm having trouble finding any quotes with the word 'Champion' in them.  :-\

[Luckers]

Ishamael was never the Champion of the Light. The Champion of the Light is not a real thing, but rather a coined phrase to refer to the Dragon soul, which should not be named the Dragon since that was Lews Therin's political title and had nothing to do with the fact that his soul was spun out to face the Shadow.

Umm. RJ never said that.

 

No, but I did. The Champion of the Light was a phrased coined by the fandom to reference the Rand/Lews Therin Soul. I'm not even sure RJ ever knew of it. We did so originally because the title, the Dragon, was a political title Lews Therin wore, much like 'the King of Illian' is one Rand bears. It was not a title for the soul in its role as Champion of the Light.

 

We know this because;-

 

Logic 1

 

1. The Age of Legenders are cited to have given Lews Therin the title.

2. The Age of Legenders had no knowledge that Lews Therin was a soul reborn to be the Light's champion.

3. Ergo they gave it to him purely for his political role in that age, not his rebirth destinty.

 

Logic 2

 

1. Rand is the Dragon 'Reborn', not the Dragon. Similarily Lews Therin was the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn--therefore the Dragon is Lews Therin, and Rand is named the Dragon Reborn specifically for his link to Lews Therin

 

Logic 3

 

1. Graendal directly states Demandred could have been the Dragon--Demandred could never have been Rand's soul, ergo she meant Demandred could have held the political role that Lews Therin did.

 

As for the Champion of the Light ever being anyone other than Rand--no, RJ never even suggested that, and every time he spoke of the role of championing the Light it was always in reference to the Rand/LTT soul.

[The Desert Pea]

As for the Champion of the Light ever being anyone other than Rand--no, RJ never even suggested that, and every time he spoke of the role of championing the Light it was always in reference to the Rand/LTT soul.

 

:( Dang. This ruins a fun little pet theory I've been putting together then that would've been pretty well backed if this wasn't the case. At least I know before really sitting down to finalize.

 

Edit: Well backed by facts and quotes, not necessarily the community. I'm not THAT pretentious :p

[Luckers]

What's the theory?

 

 

[Val Mickey]

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Wow. I'm speechless.

 

Post 'veins of gold', Rand must know this. Oh, the shame!

[The Desert Pea]

What's the theory?

 

 

 

That the "Dragon soul" isn't necessarily born to be the Champion of the Light and is rather more of a game changing wild card that both sides need to truly win. It would've drawn on the Fisher game piece and Ishy's early attempts to convert Rand to the Shadow and all the no-kill orders that were issued.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

What's the theory?

 

 

 

That the "Dragon soul" isn't necessarily born to be the Champion of the Light and is rather more of a game changing wild card that both sides need to truly win. It would've drawn on the Fisher game piece and Ishy's early attempts to convert Rand to the Shadow and all the no-kill orders that were issued.

 

The reason for the newer no-kill orders are the link between Rand and Moridin right? I think Ishy realized that Rand won't be turned.

[The Desert Pea]

What's the theory?

 

 

 

That the "Dragon soul" isn't necessarily born to be the Champion of the Light and is rather more of a game changing wild card that both sides need to truly win. It would've drawn on the Fisher game piece and Ishy's early attempts to convert Rand to the Shadow and all the no-kill orders that were issued.

 

The reason for the newer no-kill orders are the link between Rand and Moridin right? I think Ishy realized that Rand won't be turned.

 

The original no kill order was lifted just for the Cleansing, but yes it seems like the new no kill order is mainly because of the link between the two. Killing Rand doesn't seem like it would guarantee victory for the Shadow though or else it would've happened long ago.

[Shadow Rider]

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Ok, lets look at this for a sec....

In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

If The Dragon(Rand) is the Champion of the Light, turning him to the  Shadow will cause a draw???  Has the Champion of the Light been turned every time in the past?....How does the Shadow win if every time the Champion of the Light goes over to the Shadow, only to cause a draw ???