The Forsaken and T'a'R

[Lambada]

Just listening to FoH and the following quote jumped out at me

 

[birgitte on The Forsaken shadowing each other]

"And Demandred and Semirhage each shadowing them as well. I have not seen so much of them here since they were freed" - Birgitte, Fires of Heaven, Chapter 14: Meetings. Page 242 UK Paperback

 

This seems to imply that even when the Forsaken were bound outside the Pattern they were still present in TaR.

 

Am I missing something obvious here, because that just does not seem right to me.

[JorlenCorbesan]

I don't think that at this point they are bound.  Even though we don't see any POV of Semirhage until LoC Ch. 6, and we have yet to see any of Demandred, I think we can assume that they have already escaped at this point.

[Durinax]

I think that the forsaken jumped into tar right away because they can jump around the world and search through documents and such to get a general idea of the world during the present time.

 

and then the amount they where in tar cooled down until recently when bridgette said that.

 

or thats my understanding

[Lambada]

But doesn't

 

"I have not seen so much of them here since they were freed"

 

Basically prove that she saw them quite a bit BEFORE they were freed?

[JorlenCorbesan]

I think she means that since they have been freed, she hasn't seen this much of them.  Meaning that when they were first freed, they were not seen so much around Tel'aran'rhiod, and now they are.

[Lambada]

Hmm... I can't see how you're reaching that conclusion...

 

The way I'm reading it it's like this

 

Before they were freed she saw them for 20 hours a day

Then they were freed

Now she sees them only for 5 hours a day.

Like a straight-line graph with a negative gradient. i.e. \

 

Hence

She has not seen so much of them since they were freed.

Could equally be written as

She has seen less of them since they were freed.

[Durinax]

except when they where bound it was a deep dreamless sleep

 

and when they where first freed they where in tar quite a bit doing research and recon

 

and when bridgette says so the amount of time and number of forsaken have increased again

[Barid Bel Medar]

Mmmm, I am nnot sure I understand your point Lambada, but it I think it is vaild, it is a matter of interpretation.

 

for me, I read it like this,

 

they were freed, but didnt go into  T'A'R much in the first month or so.

 

Then after that month, they suddenly started showing up more freequently.

 

 

"I have not seen so much of them here since they were freed"

 

so tahts the exact quote...

Ill try and break it down.

 

SO, I have not seen so much of them" = I take that to mean, she hasnt seen them as much as the time stated.

 

"Since they were freed" = implying, this is after they were freed.

 

So together, she hasnt seen them as much in T'A'R since they were freed than at this point in time...

 

 

I admit it is unclear, but thats my take of it, similar to JorlenCorbesan's i believe

[Lambada]

Mmmm, I am nnot sure I understand your point Lambada, but it I think it is vaild, it is a matter of interpretation.

 

for me, I read it like this,

 

they were freed, but didnt go into  T'A'R much in the first month or so.

 

Then after that month, they suddenly started showing up more freequently.

 

 

"I have not seen so much of them here since they were freed"

 

so tahts the exact quote...

Ill try and break it down.

 

SO, I have not seen so much of them" = I take that to mean, she hasnt seen them as much as the time stated.

 

"Since they were freed" = implying, this is after they were freed.

 

So together, she hasnt seen them as much in T'A'R since they were freed than at this point in time...

 

 

I admit it is unclear, but thats my take of it, similar to JorlenCorbesan's i believe

 

Hmm.. I think I can see your reasoning on it now - 2.39am is not the best time for this I think.

 

It still seems more natural for me to think of it like this though:

 

Take time t=0 to be The Freeing (for want of a better term).

From time -infinity to t=0 she saw them a heck of a lot

from time t=0 to now she sees them less often. Hence she has not seen them so much.

 

It seems more natural to read it my way, for me at least, but I kind kind of see how you would have your interpretation if I squint and turn my head.

[Fains nose]

Also the fact that they can all enter suggests any channeler can learn to enter TAR

[Paerish Swar]

Mmmm, I am nnot sure I understand your point Lambada, but it I think it is vaild, it is a matter of interpretation.

 

for me, I read it like this,

 

they were freed, but didnt go into  T'A'R much in the first month or so.

 

Then after that month, they suddenly started showing up more freequently.

 

 

"I have not seen so much of them here since they were freed"

 

so tahts the exact quote...

Ill try and break it down.

 

SO, I have not seen so much of them" = I take that to mean, she hasnt seen them as much as the time stated.

 

"Since they were freed" = implying, this is after they were freed.

 

So together, she hasnt seen them as much in T'A'R since they were freed than at this point in time...

 

 

I admit it is unclear, but thats my take of it, similar to JorlenCorbesan's i believe

 

Hmm.. I think I can see your reasoning on it now - 2.39am is not the best time for this I think.

 

It still seems more natural for me to think of it like this though:

 

Take time t=0 to be The Freeing (for want of a better term).

From time -infinity to t=0 she saw them a heck of a lot

from time t=0 to now she sees them less often. Hence she has not seen them so much.

 

It seems more natural to read it my way, for me at least, but I kind kind of see how you would have your interpretation if I squint and turn my head.

 

Oy!  :-\

 

Sometimes mathematical symbols are just not the thing to use to try and clear up a question of grammar / syntax / pragmatics / whatever the hell this is.  It adds a whole other layer of stuff to try and interpret.  :P

 

Barid is right on this, though.

 

Birgitte's meaning is this:

 

The Forsaken have been free from their prison for a while (like about a year or so).

When they were first freed, Birgitte saw them in T'a'r very infrequently.

Now, all of the sudden, she is seeing them a whole lot.

 

Therefore,

 

"I have not seen so much of them here since they were freed."

 

You were correct in your first post.  The way that you initially interpreted the dialogue made Birgitte's statement seem weird or incorrect.  It wasn't that Birgitte said something weird, just that the interpretation got it a little twisted up.

 

I believe what we as readers were meant to understand from the context of Brigitte's comment was . . .

Something BIG must be about to happen for there to be such an increase in the covert activities of the Forsaken!

 

 

Did I clear up anything for you, or did I just make it worse?

[water_seeker]

Lambada, for your interpretation to be correct, I think the sentence would have to read: "I have not seen so much of them here since before they were freed."

 

"I have not seen so much of them here since they were freed" means that at the time they were freed, they spent a lot of time in TAR.  After a while they spent less time, but something has happened to cause them to meet there more often.

 

Freed => spending time in TAR => gradually spending less time in TAR => Birgitte sees them a lot more in TAR

 

"Since" here refers to a time between a particular time in the past and a present event.

[MikeRiley]

Once the forsaken were freed they all started wandering around TAR. Birgitte saw them then. She was just telling Nynaeve that there is more TAR activity among the forsaken now. It was a message to Nynaeve that the danger is rising.

[Charlz Fel]

Oy!  :-\

 

Sometimes mathematical symbols are just not the thing to use to try and clear up a question of grammar / syntax / pragmatics / whatever the hell this is.  It adds a whole other layer of stuff to try and interpret.  :P

 

 

I have to disagree here.  Mathematical symbols are, by design, very good at expressing things precisely.  They're only confusing if you allow them to intimidate you.  In this case, I don't think they helped much, but they certainly did not hurt.  (Full disclosure--I am a graduate student in mathematics.)

 

However, I agree with your interpretation of Birgitte's statement.  The Forsaken had some fairly high level of activity in TAR until they were sealed (say, time t=-3500).  Being sealed, they exhibited no activity until they were freed at t=0.  Starting at t=0, they exhibited some (non-constant) amount of activity.  However, their amount of TAR activity at the time Birgitte is speaking (say, t=1) is greater than at any time 0 < t < 1, i.e., any time since they were freed.  (But possibly there was greater activity back before they were sealed.)

 

[Paerish Swar]

Oy!  :-\

 

Sometimes mathematical symbols are just not the thing to use to try and clear up a question of grammar / syntax / pragmatics / whatever the hell this is.  It adds a whole other layer of stuff to try and interpret.  :P

 

 

I have to disagree here.  Mathematical symbols are, by design, very good at expressing things precisely.  They're only confusing if you allow them to intimidate you.  In this case, I don't think they helped much, but they certainly did not hurt.  (Full disclosure--I am a graduate student in mathematics.)

 

However, I agree with your interpretation of Birgitte's statement.  The Forsaken had some fairly high level of activity in TAR until they were sealed (say, time t=-3500).  Being sealed, they exhibited no activity until they were freed at t=0.  Starting at t=0, they exhibited some (non-constant) amount of activity.  However, their amount of TAR activity at the time Birgitte is speaking (say, t=1) is greater than at any time 0 < t < 1, i.e., any time since they were freed.  (But possibly there was greater activity back before they were sealed.)

 

 

;)

 

"Sometimes."

 

Mathematical symbols are very good at defining things precisely, and those symbols are commonly used  when parsing sentences for various purposes.

 

The problem comes when one doesn't know what those symbols represent.  One can not be precise when attempting to communicate something when the meaning/value of the symbol is not understood by others.  (not that that is exactly what was occurring with Lambada's statement)

 

But if someone is having to spend their time figuring out what the symbol represents, so that they can then turn around and figure out what the relationship of the symbol is to the original question, the context/meaning of which is not clear, well . . .

 

sometimes (for mathematical dunces like myself) it becomes superfluous.

 

Lambada's "equation" wasn't incorrect in itself, but the problem was that it actually was not representative of the meaning of the sentence in question - the way he was delineating time worked fine for his preexisting interpretation, but was inherently exclusive of the sentences actual meaning.  It just confused the issue.  What you wrote was a better, more accurate representation . . . but I still had to read it twice to make sure I completely understood you.  (although I guess that's my problem, not yours)

 

I guess that's all I was getting at.

 

Anyway,

 

Hey Charlz!  If I ever have a serious math question, can I message you?  :)

 

(jk)

[DocBean]

Oy!  :-\

 

Sometimes mathematical symbols are just not the thing to use to try and clear up a question of grammar / syntax / pragmatics / whatever the hell this is.  It adds a whole other layer of stuff to try and interpret.  :P

 

 

I have to disagree here.  Mathematical symbols are, by design, very good at expressing things precisely.  They're only confusing if you allow them to intimidate you.  In this case, I don't think they helped much, but they certainly did not hurt.  (Full disclosure--I am a graduate student in mathematics.)

 

However, I agree with your interpretation of Birgitte's statement.  The Forsaken had some fairly high level of activity in TAR until they were sealed (say, time t=-3500).  Being sealed, they exhibited no activity until they were freed at t=0.  Starting at t=0, they exhibited some (non-constant) amount of activity.  However, their amount of TAR activity at the time Birgitte is speaking (say, t=1) is greater than at any time 0 < t < 1, i.e., any time since they were freed.  (But possibly there was greater activity back before they were sealed.)

 

 

for a graduate student in Math, you're really bad at explaining things with mathematical symbols.

i think your -infinity was a little confusing earlier, but to say t=1 and then say 0<t<1, you're basically saying 0<1<1.

 

so I agree with Paerish Swar.

let's avoid confusing math for those of us who aren't Grad students, and just took Math Fun-0-1 in college.