Is Verin Black?

[yoniy0]

So, let me start by saying I know there're loads of threads about her. In fact, there are so many references to her that it's really hard to find out whether the question I intend to pose has been discussed before. I thought to just reply in the 'Verin (Full Book Spoilers)' thread, but the forum mechanism suggested that I leave that thread be, so I'm starting a new one.

 

Secondly, don't take my subject too seriously. It was meant to be slightly amusing (fingers crossed), but I think it also fits my question quite well.

 

Now, to my question/comment. It bothers me that we had only Verin's word, her willingness to die and the apparent good her confiding in Egwene did to go by when we (at least, I) reached the conclusion that she's actually working for the Light. Since by her own account the battle isn't being fought the way everyone assumes it is, could it be that her sacrifice was actually part of a plot by the Shadow?

 

I'll especially appreciate anyone posting hard evidence (or, as hard as can be found) either way, but feel free to let me know what you think even if you don't have anything new to base that on (only, please try not to repeat what others already wrote).

[thevillagecouncil]

it's said in the books that she joined the black to be a spy for the tower and learn about them. The black ajah has spies everywhere and Verin decided it was time for the tower to have a spy in the black's midst as well.

 

Her warder is a darkfriend, so i'm not sure if that means that black ajah can only have darkfriends as warders or not, but I strongly believe verin was not one.

[Fains nose]

Im sure she probably did some horrible things to a lot of people, but it was balanced out by the good she had done

[JenniferL]

Yes, she was really in the Black Ajah. You can't just say you're joining the Black Ajah. You have to actually murder babies and eat puppies. Just because she didn't detail her crimes on her deathbed, doesn't mean they didn't happen.

[Barid Bel Medar]

She was a part of many Black Ajah plots and has done alot of "good" things for the Shadow but heres a quote from Brandon.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting

 

Verin does have blood on her hands, but everything she has done has been for the greater good.

 

So unless he is Black Ajah and lying to us to hide the Shadow's masterplot, i take it that she did joiin the black and do terrible things,  but was doing it for, as it says the greater good, so her actions were not a part of the shadows plot.

 

The shadow may have known about this, and alloowed it to happen, but Verin herself was not involved in the particular plot, her reasons at least were legit

[mb]

I also think that she has worked for the Light.

I consider her more as a infiltrator than a darkfriend.

New Spring through Knife of Dreams have seemed to indicate that she was Light-sided.

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

I had the same idea a few days ago about it being a shadow plot. Lulling the Aes Sedai into a false sense of secruity and bamn! I guess we will find out how noble her intentions are when Mat reads his letter.

She could of been played for a fool by the dark one.

[Barid Bel Medar]

indeed she could of been fooled, however, that is not the topic of the discussion,

 

as far as simply Verin is concerned, she worked for the Light.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I apologize for that, just re-read my post, wasnt the best thing to say.

 

Your points are vaild in the discussion, I was just pointing out that in answer to the original question, it is that Verin is ultimately a good character, and her actions were not meant (at least by her) to hurt the light

[Owayn The Traveller]

I was just going to fire a retort back there Barid. Dodged a bullet there jimmy boy my auld laddy.

[Tollieman]

I also think that she has worked for the Light.

I consider her more as a infiltrator than a darkfriend.

New Spring through Knife of Dreams have seemed to indicate that she was Light-sided.

 

 

Infiltrator Ajah; I like it! What is their (her) colour?  ;D

[Barid Bel Medar]

It would have been something to see, but i only argue when I think i am correct, in this case, it was my bad  ;D

[Barid Bel Medar]

The

I also think that she has worked for the Light.

I consider her more as a infiltrator than a darkfriend.

New Spring through Knife of Dreams have seemed to indicate that she was Light-sided.

 

 

Infiltrator Ajah; I like it! What is their (her) colour?  ;D

 

The colour of fancloth  (warder Cloaks)  ;)

[Tollieman]

Very cool.

[Charlz Fel]

It's an interesting question.  Since the Dark One can resurrect people who die other than by balefire, it's remotely possible that Verin's self-sacrifice was nothing of the sort--perhaps she had been guaranteed a new body, even a more attractive one, plus other great rewards, in exchange for doing something that (in some highly unexpected way) is important to the Shadow.  Perhaps she planted some crucial bit of misinformation in the booklet, that was worth outing the Black to make believable? Perhaps forcing Egwene to order executions like that helped the Dark One, in some fashion similar to Rand's hardness?

 

The basic problem I have with theories like this is that, in order for Verin to know that something like this helped the Shadow (contrary to the approach of most of the Forsaken), she would have to be more trusted by the Dark One than anyone except Moridin.  And I just can't see a Third Ager achieving this status.  I also think that Verin's other thoughts and deeds we know of, including ones she has not explained to Egwene, do not seem to be helping the Shadow in any conceivable, even highly counterintuitive, way.  Obviously she did evil deeds in the service of the Shadow, but I am strongly inclined to accept her final sacrifice at face value.

[mb]

I also think that she has worked for the Light.

I consider her more as a infiltrator than a darkfriend.

New Spring through Knife of Dreams have seemed to indicate that she was Light-sided.

Infiltrator Ajah; I like it! What is their (her) colour?  ;D

The books do not tell.  It could be any color besides the 8.

Some people/sites speculated that she was part of a Purple Ajah.

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

It's an interesting question.  Since the Dark One can resurrect people who die other than by balefire, it's remotely possible that Verin's self-sacrifice was nothing of the sort--perhaps she had been guaranteed a new body, even a more attractive one, plus other great rewards, in exchange for doing something that (in some highly unexpected way) is important to the Shadow.  Perhaps she planted some crucial bit of misinformation in the booklet, that was worth outing the Black to make believable? Perhaps forcing Egwene to order executions like that helped the Dark One, in some fashion similar to Rand's hardness?

 

The basic problem I have with theories like this is that, in order for Verin to know that something like this helped the Shadow (contrary to the approach of most of the Forsaken), she would have to be more trusted by the Dark One than anyone except Moridin.  And I just can't see a Third Ager achieving this status.  I also think that Verin's other thoughts and deeds we know of, including ones she has not explained to Egwene, do not seem to be helping the Shadow in any conceivable, even highly counterintuitive, way.  Obviously she did evil deeds in the service of the Shadow, but I am strongly inclined to accept her final sacrifice at face value.

 

I mean no offence, but did you completly ingore the other posts?

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting

 

Verin does have blood on her hands, but everything she has done has been for the greater good.

[Charlz Fel]

There's also the Brandon quote that Barid Bel Medar points out, of course, which was posted while I was typing my own post.

[Tollieman]

It's an interesting question.  Since the Dark One can resurrect people who die other than by balefire, it's remotely possible that Verin's self-sacrifice was nothing of the sort--perhaps she had been guaranteed a new body, even a more attractive one, plus other great rewards, in exchange for doing something that (in some highly unexpected way) is important to the Shadow.  Perhaps she planted some crucial bit of misinformation in the booklet, that was worth outing the Black to make believable? Perhaps forcing Egwene to order executions like that helped the Dark One, in some fashion similar to Rand's hardness?

 

The main confusion re death I have is; if the Dark One is Lord of the Grave, and you don't end up being a Hero of the Horn, then the Dark One's got you until you're reborn?

 

Which would mean even greater heroic sacrifice by Verin (if she's truly, err... purple ajah) because she knows that for a good while she's going to be the dark one's female dog?

 

Unless she's become a Hero of course.

 

Or was bad to start.... And not fancloth. I mean brown.... purple.

 

My head is starting to hurt.

[Barid Bel Medar]

haha, oh, I thought you meant what colour would the "infiltrator" ajah be if it existed, and thought fancloth was pretty funny.

 

But yea, she was brown, I donno about any purple ajah, seems like people speculating to me, I dont think thta it actaully exists

[yoniy0]

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting

 

Verin does have blood on her hands, but everything she has done has been for the greater good.

Okay then, I didn't remember that one. Good enough for me.

(BTW I just finished a reread of the Deathly Hallows - I know you guys, but every time I read it I'm convinced that it's actually better than I previously thought. Call it a vice - so the term 'the greater good' makes me a bit uncomfortable)

[lews reborn]

Verin was always working toward the greater good. When she was raised to the brown ajah she began studying the black ajah and got so deep in it she either had to join or die. She then decided to infiltrate them and still be working for the light. Thanks to the information Verin passed on most of the Black ajah have been wiped out in the white tower. I find it hard to believe this could of been the DO's plan since he'd be losing so many perfect dread lords. Unless it was used to make Mesaana's infiltration less noticeable but even then no one had a clue that Mesaana had infiltrated the white tower until Verin tells Egwene.