Galad and Gawyn confusion...

[DaughterOfNight]

 

My memory is shot and so I cannot (or will not) cite the chapters or books to which I refer but if anyone has any idea as to what I'm trying to ask, then you're awesome.  Anyway...

 

It seems like every time I re-read the passages about Egwene with Galad or Egwene with Gawyn, I feel like RJ got them confused here and there.  For some reason, I remember Egwene being smitten with Galad and daydreaming about him but later in the books, she's mooning over Gawyn and no recollection of her having a tryst or two with Galad.

 

Has anyone else noticed this or has ever said, "Huh?", to themselves after reading these parts?

[Luckers]

Egwene was initially into Galad because he was so darn pretty, but latter falls for Gawyn. The progression of that change is there if you look for it.

[yoniy0]

I believe the tipping point is when Elayne tells her that Gawyn's interested in her, but won't say anything as long as she keeps drooling over Galad the way she's been doing.

[DaughterOfNight]

 

So then I wonder, will anything come out of this love triangle of sorts?  Seems like this could be an easy setup for two brothers in love with the same woman.

[FarShainMael]

Maybe BS sorted that out, because in TGS Ch43 Egwene notes that she finds Gawyn 'even more attractive' than Galad because he is more 'real'.

 

(we all posted at once  ;) )

 

[Luckers]

 

So then I wonder, will anything come out of this love triangle of sorts?  Seems like this could be an easy setup for two brothers in love with the same woman.

 

It seems likely Galad and Berelain are destined to be together, so its doubtful.

[DaughterOfNight]

 

It seems likely Galad and Berelain are destined to be together, so its doubtful.

 

Really?  I don't remember reading anything about this... please grace me with your insight and knowledge O' Luckers!

[Luckers]

Min had a viewing that a man in white would make Berelain fall head over heals. Given the convergence of Berelain and Galad in ToM...

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Galad is a much greater man than Gawyn. Ignoring the fact that he is the half-brother of Rand. He seems to have a stronger natural charisma and leadership instinct, men are naturally drawn to his aura. It's part of the reason why Gawyn only really started to shine as a character once he was out of Galads shadow.

 

But even once out of the shadow. What did Gawyn achieve? Become a leader of a motley squadron of soldiers. In the same time Galad managed to commandeer the Children of the Lights armed forces.

[yoniy0]

Far be it from me to defend Gawyn, but it wasn't anything close to the same time. Gawyn has been leading the Younglings for at least a year now (ever since the middle of TSR, wasn't it?)

Plus, Galad didn't exactly work towards his current post, he just tried to avenge his mother (which, when you think about it, is exactly what Gawyn had on his mind all that time).

Hmm, it seems I did defend him. Ugh.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Far be it from me to defend Gawyn, but it wasn't anything close to the same time. Gawyn has been leading the Younglings for at least a year now (ever since the middle of TSR, wasn't it?)

Plus, Galad didn't exactly work towards his current post, he just tried to avenge his mother (which, when you think about it, is exactly what Gawyn had on his mind all that time).

Hmm, it seems I did defend him. Ugh.

 

Gawyn worked towards his post? I was under the impression he killed his master and mentor in an illegal and morally questionable coup to still and depose the elected Amyrlin.

 

 

[Duskfire]

To be fair, Gawyn has done a pretty good with the Younglings. Yes they are a bit ignorant about alot of the current situations, but in terms of battle prowess and whatnot, he has a group of teenagers into decent warriors. I dont particularly like him as a character, but to me he has also shown strong leadership potential.

 

 

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

To be fair, Gawyn has done a pretty good with the Younglings. Yes they are a bit ignorant about alot of the current situations, but in terms of battle prowess and whatnot, he has a group of teenagers into decent warriors. I dont particularly like him as a character, but to me he has also shown strong leadership potential.

 

 

 

 

Yeah pretty good. He only managed to help play an associative role in the kidnapping and torture of the Dragon Reborn. Then attempt to waylay and destroy forces coming to his rescue. This is after he personally slew the man who taught him how to fight and was "as a father to him." To make matters worse he fantasizes about brutally murdering the Dragon Reborn who is the only hope for human salvation and deliverance from the Dark One.

 

 

Yeah he really developed as a character. He completely lacks in moral integrity, considering he switches sides more often than Benedict Arnold. He is a weak, self-centered boy with serious self-esteem issues who is not even sure whom he should support or who he should fight for. Gawyn can be compared to a rabid dog, eventually he'll be put out of his misery before he creates even more chaos, destruction and victories for the shadow. Probably by the hand of Galad in an emotional fraternal struggle to the death, as is befitting the Arthurian tales their names are based on.

[Vambram]

Gareth Byrne does not agree with your analysis of Gawyn, Rembrandt.

[Tollieman]

Gareth Byrne does not agree with your analysis of Gawyn, Rembrandt.

 

Gareth Bryne likes Egwene too. So that disqualifies him immediately from reliable character witness consideration  ;)  :)

[gambril]

Egwene falls for Gawyn when she sees his dreams of slaying Rand and rescuing her from him.  Makes a lot of sense doesn't it?  It should be intuitively obvious that Egwene is subconsciously attracted to narcissistic, deranged and demented loons with no odium of sanity.  Gawyn is a hopeless lout that was interjected into the story because somebody has to be the idiot who gets everything wrong.

 

I would like someone to attempt to explain how Egwene can feel anything but contempt, loathing and pity for him though?  Remember this though: She has seen Gawyn's motivations (killing Rand) and supposedly loves Rand as a brother yet has no problem with this knowledge of Gawyn and indeed despite this knowledge comes to love him?  Please!  Good luck expalining yourself with this disaster.  Gawyn has no redeeming qualities and the only way he can redeem himself is to just die a well and gruesome death and even still he'll be an idiot to the 9th degree.

[DaughterOfNight]

During tGS, I found myself becoming annoyed at how Egwene talked to and treated Gawyn when they reunited in the Tower.  Now, I see why she was angry at him (the unwanted rescue attempt and him not wanting to leave her side) but boy, was she being quite bitchy towards him!  Thinking about her dream where she saw him kneeling to her or breaking her neck, the way it's going I can totally see the latter happening instead of the former.  Lovestruck or not, Gawyn doesn't need to put up with that crap... and Egwene, wanting to separate her personal life from work life, she needs to have a little heart and stop treating the poor guy like a doormat.

 

Wow, I'm taking this rather personally it seems!!  :-*

[Hadilmir]

Gareth Bryne likes Egwene too. So that disqualifies him immediately from reliable character witness consideration  ;)  :)

Have fun finding a character that dislikes Egwene. A few Aes Sedai here and there, some novices she snapped at and some minor nobles. Perhaps if you had said "Gareth Bryne likes Elayne too." I would be inclined to agree.  :P

 

Gawyn is a good fellow, but not levelheaded enough (by far) for the positions he's been thrust into.

[gambril]

I am not bashing Egwene, Hadilmir.  Egwene is my second favorite female character in the story behind Tuon.  I am simply stating that the Egwene/Gawyn 'love' arc is very contrived and makes no rational sense.

[Hadilmir]

I am not bashing Egwene, Hadilmir.  Egwene is my second favorite female character in the story behind Tuon.  I am simply stating that the Egwene/Gawyn 'love' arc is very contrived and makes no rational sense.

Oops, you're right. First read through I missed the 'subconsciously attracted to' part. Changes the message completely. :D

 

Carry on then.  ;)

[rhadamanthus]

Gawyn's issue is really rather simple.  He does not have independent thoughts.  He is a follower, through and through.  Even thinking non-loyal thoughts makes him feel guilty.

 

His only deviation from this easily-abused and used lapdog mentality is his love of Egwene.  In that regard, Egwene's chastisement is perfect.  She is independent and strong - from a certain point of view forcing Gawyn to react independently to her aloof attitude might be a very good thing.

 

Otherwise, I think when he meets Rand and his mother he will be forced to understand reality - that trusting people blindly is idiotic - and accordingly he has made a giant ass of himself.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Gawyn's issue is really rather simple.  He does not have independent thoughts.  He is a follower, through and through.  Even thinking non-loyal thoughts makes him feel guilty.

 

His only deviation from this easily-abused and used lapdog mentality is his love of Egwene.  In that regard, Egwene's chastisement is perfect.  She is independent and strong - from a certain point of view forcing Gawyn to react independently to her aloof attitude might be a very good thing.

 

Otherwise, I think when he meets Rand and his mother he will be forced to understand reality - that trusting people blindly is idiotic - and accordingly he has made a giant ass of himself.

 

 

Precisely. Galad, for all his failings, is at least a man of conviction and purpose. He knows what is right in his eyes and he refuses to bow down from his belief. Gawyn is an unsure little boy who changes attitudes and loyalties on a whim, often with disastrous results.

 

This is more or less why I believe Elayne hated Galad and loved Gawyn more. Galad was too strong for her, he intimidated her and she held no power over him. Something that would surely vex someone as arrogant and conceited as Elayne. Whereas with Gawyn she knew she had an impressionable youth who was unsure of his place in the world. Someone who would always listen to her and be at her whim, as her first Prince.

[Demiandre]

I just want to add that Gawyn was under pressure because of several oaths he made. The first to Elayne, the second to the White Tower and the third to Egwene. He tried to keep them all. Siuan did what she had to do and partially broke her oath toward Bryne to cpncentrate on the one she set on herself re:Rand. Hopefully Gawyn will be less dumb in the future as he finally chose a side. He found his place so to say. Galad, however, understood the White Tower couldn't be trusted and joined the Whitecloaks. But both had the same Oedipe they couldn't overcome and Gawyn was crushed with this, even wanting to put the Pattern in danger. Very silly...

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I just want to add that Gawyn was under pressure because of several oaths he made. The first to Elayne, the second to the White Tower and the third to Egwene. He tried to keep them all. Siuan did what she had to do and partially broke her oath toward Bryne to cpncentrate on the one she set on herself re:Rand. Hopefully Gawyn will be less dumb in the future as he finally chose a side. He found his place so to say. Galad, however, understood the White Tower couldn't be trusted and joined the Whitecloaks. But both had the same Oedipe they couldn't overcome and Gawyn was crushed with this, even wanting to put the Pattern in danger. Very silly...

 

No kidding. Galad was clearly the more intelligent of the two. He saw trouble brewing in the Tower and bailed on a sinking ship. Gawyn blindly allowed himself to get mired down in politicas, civil war and inner bickering. A serious lack of foresight.

[yoniy0]

You guys contradict yourselves. Galad is a man of convictions because he bailed on a sinking ship? When he had obligations to meet there?

Gawyn does not have a history of switching loyalties on a whim. He did that only ONCE, when he abandoned the Younglings. Technically, Siuan's deposing was legal, and the Warders that tried to free her were breaking Tower Law. And you can't fault him for deserting the Tower's cause after all Elaida has put him through. She didn't deserve his loyalty. His men were a different story, but he could hardly have told them that he plans to go over to the rebels, now could he? As he himself said - and I agree - he was ultimately acting in their interests by helping to end the conflict.

 

Finally, he is dense, there's no denying it. Going on hearsay when knowledgeable people assure him that he's wrong about Rand is stupid, but I certainly understand why he's having a hard time thinking straight, believing his mother was murdered for political gain. Were I in the same situation, I'm really not sure that I would have put the good of the Pattern ahead of my personal need for revenge. I would like to believe that I would, but I can't say so categorically. Can you? Are you speaking from experience?