Mat's 4 Questions

[Atan Lodorn]

Long time reader first time poster.

 

How come mat got to ask 4 questions to the finns in Tear?

 

1) Should I go home to help my people?  He is told to go to Rhuidean.

Then a bell tolls, they notice he is Taveren.  Mat's thinks Rhuidean, that's in the waste, he gets angry,

 

2) Why should I? Mat thinks they are giving him riddles.  The finns answer if he doesn't go he will die.  The finns get anxious, there is another bell toll.

 

3) Why will I die if I do not go to Rhuidean?  He will have side stepped his thread of fate.  Let his fate to drift on the winds of time.  NOW go, you must go quickly.

The guide comes back, mat complains that the finns have led him from the questions he wanted to ask. He demands 1 clear answer from the finns.  Bell tolls for a third time the room trembles.  The male finn tells him he has had his answers.  A dozen of the finns grab him, mat fights with them then asks.

 

4) What fate, burn you, what fate?  the finns answer though mat doesn't know which one To marry the daughter of the nine moons, to die and to live again, and live once more a part of what was, to give up half the light of the world to save the world.  Go to Rhuidean son of battles, go to Rhuidean trickster, go gambler, go!!  The finns then take him to the doorway and kick him out.

 

Those are 4 distinct questions are they not??

 

Now the easy answer would be him being Taveren, pulling the answer out of them, but why would that affect them? with the law of nature being so 'warped' in 'finnland', the finns not having 'savoured' people in a long time want to enjoy the moment, those assailants got him out easy enough once he had asked the fourth question, plus the finns did NOT have to answer, because he had got his 3 questions already answered, if they didn't answer would have mat been reluctant to go and continue to fight? 

 

Finally has mat already 'cheated' by asking 4 questions. ???

 

 

 

[Dakota]

My own personal opinion and conjecture.

 

It's possible that the finns are required and compelled by their very nature to answer every question that's asked of them, no matter how many, and that the 'rule of three' was part of the treaty.  They could have been compelled to answer his fourth question, and would have been forced to continue to answer more until he got kicked out.

[bubbified]

Ya I think it came down to the fact that he wouldn't leave.  There place was getting all earthquaky and he wouldn't leave, so they were just throwing answers at him, trying anything, to get him to go.  The only way to win at snakes and foxes is to cheat.  If you came in heavy with fire iron music and all that you could maybe get some more answers out of it, assuming you lived.

[Atan Lodorn]

He still didn't go voluntarily, they grabbed him, dragged him to the doorway and threw him out, they didn''t need to answer his question, but they did.

[bubbified]

They both answered him and threw him out.  If you need someone to leave, and time is a factor, doing both is better than doing either alone.

[DemandredFO]

I think it comes down to either two taveren at the same time or dealing with Rand and Moriane who could produce fire on their own.  Personally I favor the 2 taveren

[bubbified]

I think thats what made getting mat out an urgent matter. If they weren't under duress, they would've told him to f off after he had his answers.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think thats what made getting mat out an urgent matter. If they weren't under duress, they would've told him to f off after he had his answers.

 

Yeah, I think when your tower is comming down on your head, you dont think about how many questions you are supposed to answer, and just do what you can to get the cause of the problem the hell out of there.

Answering his question was the easiest way of getting him the hell out of there, or at least, lowering his resistance. He was pretty determined to get answers.

 

However, since they had to throw him out anyway, why not do it without answering the fourth question? There are a few possibilites.

 

1. They werent thinking, and just wanted him out of there so answered in hopes that he would be at least (partially) satisfied, and easier to kick out.

 

2. They, as has been pointed out, compelled to ask "all" questions. While possible, I dont think its likely, someone could jsut refuse to go and ask multiple questions, which kinda defeats the purpose.

 

3. Similar to 1, two Taveren brought out the 1-10000 chance thing and they were kinda forced to answer the question.

 

4. Taveren again, and they knew the answers were important, so decided to tell him in hopes of giving him a better chance against the shadow. (Highly unlikely, but hey,  might aswell put it there)

[bubbified]

5. They REALLY like answering questions.

[Luckers]

The Finns arent'y magical creatures like genies, bound to give a certain number of answers. The trade agreement they have with humanity states three, but that is not to say that under preasure they can't feel free to throw out more. And they were under immense preasure from the presense of two ta'veren.

[bubbified]

Hmm, now what happens if someone does bottle one up?  And presumably in their world if they need to be there for their power to work?  Would we get legends about genies now?  I think genies in our legends aren't benevolent creatures.  The whole wonky physical dimensions thing(at least in appearance) might play into the whole in the bottle thing as well.

[ROB_88]

what i wanna know is that when Mat got in there, he told them his entire life story (that he could remember) before he asked the questions.

was that needed at all?

[DocBean]

I believe that what was happening in Finnland was the Big Missed thing that Brandon eluded to.

 

I don't think it's really been discussed.

The only discussions I can think of are people saying - "well the place started to shake and the bells went off because there were two Tavern there at the same time."

 

Maybe there is more to what was going on then we noticed.

 

It didn't look like those fins (don't remember which ones) are as devious as the others.

We didn't see any adverse actions taken against Moiraine, Rand, or Matt.

Matt got tossed out on his butt, and didn't the others just walk out?

 

That's way different then being hung by a tree.

[bubbified]

What could be happening in finland?

 

We have some sort of treaty with them.

We know they are fairly evil, by our standards.

We know one set can "savor" our experiences.

We know the other set likes our skin.

We know, or suppect, they can create links to randlandians who've visted them.

We know they can modify our souls (or maybe just brains), and see into our futures.

We know they have access to items from our world, or can create items having to do with the power in some way.

We know the two sets are distinctive, but not necessarily separate in existence.

We know they possible support, work for, afraid of, or are resitricted by, the DO.

 

We know almost nothing about them, and what we do know implies they have a whole world we don't know of.

Hmm, I'm gonna look for a snakes and foxes post and see if anyone has compiled a full list of possibilities.

[DocBean]

We know they possible support, work for, afraid of, or are resitricted by, the DO.

 

this one really confuses me.

We don't know that they have any connection to the Dark One.

We know that questions about the Shadow can be dangerous, and they know what Rand must do in the Last Battle.

 

Does anyone have a trick to remember which ones are the Aelfinn and which ones are the Eelfinn?

I always think the Eelfinn are the snakes because eels are similar to snakes, but they're actually the foxes.

 

I also can never remember which ones do which. Wishes or answers.

 

 

 

[DocBean]

I have a theory that the Finns can only win if you go against them alone, or in groups of two.

In the Game there are always 2 black pieces representing the Humans.

Matt's luck while playing with Olver almost got them to the center, but the Foxes and Snakes closed on them.

It's possible that 3 stones would have made the difference, and one of them might have made it to the center of the board.

Which is possibly why Matt and Thom need to bring a 3rd person.

 

When Matt, Rand, and Moiraine were all in the same doorway, then things started to shake, and they forcibly removed Matt.

Who seemed to be the last one in. Then again since time seems to be stranger there, it's possible he had been the first into the doorway.

Matt didn't need to wait around for a translator and instead talked with them in the Old Tongue, so it's very possible that he visited them after Moiraine and Rand.

 

Could it be that the extra answers he got was because they were cheating, and there were 3 humans there at once?

 

Are there any clues as to why the bells were ringing, and why the place was crumbling?

Did Moiraine or Rand mention the shaking, or the bells ever, or was it just Matt?

 

 

[DocBean]

Here is another thing that makes me wonder about the Finns.

 

If Moraine and Lan's bond didn't break when Moraine went into the doorway in (Tear? Illian? wherever)

then the doorway must permanently connect the two worlds.

at least until it's desroyed, like we saw with Moraine and Lanfear.

Moraine's bond broke at that point, which means the connection to the two worlds was severed.

 

I'm guessing the Tower of Genjei isn't always open, and is basically closed until you open it.

so if the Link between Aes Sedai and Warder is like an invisible string, then it passed through the doorway the first time.

keeping them connected. It's possible that connection is what links them to Matt.

 

However, Once the doorway was burned then the string snapped.

So wouldn't the Finns connection to Matt snap too?

 

It's very possible they don't know he's coming, and can't read his mind at all. They might be a little surprised to see him again.

I can't imagine a lot of people have visited them twice. Moraine is one, and they didn't let her out again.

 

The other possibility is that Moraine did indeed die. Lanfear seems to have died.

maybe she was somehow reborn in Finnland. Isn't this what happened to Gandolf? didn't he die, and come back from the dead in LotR?

We know Min's viewing involved her being alive, so she's not done for good.

[Atan Lodorn]

Why did the doorway melt, when Lanfear and Moiraine went through?

[Dakota]

what i wanna know is that when Mat got in there, he told them his entire life story (that he could remember) before he asked the questions.

was that needed at all?

My impression was either

A) A side effect of the duel of the Power that Moiraine and Lanfear were having on the other side.

B) The door can only hand one person going through at once.  In Book 3, Rand, Moiraine, and Mat were all through at once, but they went through sequentially, one at a time.  Lanfear and Moiraine going through at the same time might have overloaded the door.

[jadelollipop]

Moraine and Lanfear were both using the One Power and the combination melted the door (IIRC).  The fact that they were using the OP may be how Lanfear (Cyndane) was weakened. Lanfear died (being a Forsaken and therefore tied to Shadow). Moraine still captive and awaiting rescue.

Mat visited the Aelfinn in Tear and was unable to re-enter that doorway. The Eelfin in Rhuidean and door melted (though Mat did not want to go back)

Maybe Moraine survived to make a bargain (she would stay until Thom,Mat and ? came to get her)

Only 4 more months and some answers will be available :)

[Atan Lodorn]

The reason that I asked was that was it because

 

1) They BOTH were holding the power at the time,

 

2) Was it because Lanfear was holding onto Moiraine as they fell through, Mat tried to go back in when he down in the hold he stepped straight thru to the other side, how was Moiraine able to make it back through?

 

3) If it was because they were holding onto the power, then why was Rand able to exit when he was holding his fire blade.

 

Also how come Mat was able to speak without a translator, I know he can understand the Old Tongue but didn't think that all happened until after he had visited Rhuidean.

[jadelollipop]

 

 

The reason that I asked was that was it because

 

1) They BOTH were holding the power at the time,

 

2) Was it because Lanfear was holding onto Moiraine as they fell through, Mat tried to go back in when he down in the hold he stepped straight thru to the other side, how was Moiraine able to make it back through?

 

3) If it was because they were holding onto the power, then why was Rand able to exit when he was holding his fire blade.

 

Also how come Mat was able to speak without a translator, I know he can understand the Old Tongue but didn't think that all happened until after he had visited Rhuidean.

 

1. I think the combination of the one power overloaded the doorway

2. The door that melted was from Rhuidean. Moraine had not gone into that doorway before

3. Holding a fireblade to keep the Aelfinn at bay not same as full fledged battle...or difference between Saidin and Saidar (haha)

4. Mat used Old Tongue prior to Rhuidean. Blood of Manetheren (SP) ex when cured of link to daggar

[FarShainMael]

Possibilities:

 

Rand was channelling saidin, while the girls were using saidar.

 

Lanfear was a Forsaken, a Shadowsworn, and the doorway was set to reject such beings; but Moiraine's presence 'forced the lock'. Recall that wall of intense white light Mat steps through.

 

Or perhaps the 'lock' was overloaded by the girls. Lanfear is (was!) the strongest channeller known; Moiraine was using an angreal.

 

Mat and the Old Tongue: this came up very early indeed, way back in EotW when the group was fighting the Trollocs and Mat was yelling "Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!"  Later on, when he is being separated from the dagger in TV, he shouts again in the Old Tongue, this time for the AS to leave him alone.

 

 

[DocBean]

4. Mat used Old Tongue prior to Rhuidean. Blood of Manetheren (SP) ex when cured of link to daggar

 

Rand said he had to wait on a translator.

Matt didn't have one.

 

He kept his mouth shut when Moraine told Rand that the Finns speak only in the Old Tongue.

He realized that his entire conversation with them was in the Old Tongue.

 

Just one of the many oddities of Matt's life.

 

I wasn't saying it was the first time it happened, I was saying that it might be a clue that Matt was the last one into the doorway.

If Rand had gone in, but had to wait around for a translator, then Matt came in, got kicked out, then Rand exited. followed by Moraine?

That's 3 humans. The game requires no more then 2 human pieces.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Now why would the finns use the Old Tounge?

 

First I thought that they knew it and used it for humans because when the pact began, that was the common language.

 

 

But when Rand goes in, he has his translator. Now, a few things come to mind.

 

1. The use of a translator means that at least some of the Finns know the common tounge, and thus can learn, which in itself is unremarkable.

 

2. The language that Rand needs translation for is the Old Tounge, which suggests that the Finns language is the Old Tounge.

 

A few things come of this. The old tounge is a language of this particular world, the finns are not truly a part of this world, why do they not have their own language? And how did they come to use the Old Tounge as a language? It suggests that they were once a part of the world, or that people got the old tounge from them, or some universal source