Grendeal

[Guest cwestervelt]

Well, Ishamael admitted that he was wispering in Hawkwing's ear causing the animosity with the White Tower and the crossing of the Aeryth Ocean. Along with his bragging I'm sure he would have mentioned enabling Hawkwing to rise to power. Instead, he passes Guaire Amalason off as a pawn of the Tower. In actuality it was the Pattern, needing to establish Hawkwing's empire, that drove Amalason. It wasn't Ishamael or the Tower.

 

You completely missed the point. That was a listing of names of all known male channellers, or at least those that came to mind. There was bound to be more who were able to establish significant levels of control. Even among the Wilders that come to the Tower, not all of them are blocked. You completely ignored how the first channellers had no choice but to teach themselves. If it isn't possible to learn to be a powerful and able channeller without someone teaching you, who taught the original teachers?

[Luckers]

another thing....

 

People seem to put too much stock in Cadsuane.

I mean' date=' I like the woman, but she's being raised up on a pedestal which is kind of high, and I can't help thinking of the way RJ has of bringing those pedestals crashing down. And we all know... the higer they are, the harder they fall.

[/quote']

 

Thats not actually true, when RJ creates an Aes sedai who is free of all the posturing and blind arrogance of the Aes Sedai she usually grows more powerful, not less. Cads, Verin and Moiraine are all like this. They don't say things like 'angering the tower can be fatal..." blah blah blah... They don't let the desire to better the Tower rule their thoughts.

 

Maybe the Wilder was one of the Kin???

 

I doubt it. By all indications this woman was talented enough and strong enough in the power to contain Cadsuane, and Cadsuane specifically puts down her strength of will to being learnt in that place. Had Nora entered the Tower she would have attained the shawl.

 

My guess is she is a women that didn't go to the tower. A wilder in true, and the kin don't accept wilders.

 

But I doubt that a random wilder would have such a formidable arsenal.

 

Why? The woman obviously wasn't scared of Aes Sedai, and given that the angreal and ter'angreal seem to be a set they were likely found together. The Black Hills would be the perfect place to find Stasis Boxes, of which we know there are many.

 

By the way, why do so many people hold to the theory that for Taim to have learned to channel he must have been recruited and taught by Ishamael and yet don't question how Logain learned to channel?

 

We don't hold that just because he knows how to channel, we hold that because of specific things he's said that sound like the sort of things Forsaken would say, indicating long term contact--long enough for him to pick up the lingo. Then there is the fact that we know Taim has trained other men in the past, and it makes sense for Ishy to start gathering and training men to channel after learning of Rand's birth... god knows it must have been he that did it in the Trolloc Wars.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why? The woman obviously wasn't scared of Aes Sedai, and given that the angreal and ter'angreal seem to be a set they were likely found together. The Black Hills would be the perfect place to find Stasis Boxes, of which we know there are many.

 

I should have been more explicit. It is doubtful that a true wilder would have such an arsenal, and have learned how to use most of it without stilling herself. I say doubtful because I personally doubt it, but it IS possible. However, since much of the arsenal seems directed at men who can channel, I think it is equally likely that some women, perhaps in response to a Fortelling or other prophecy, made and preserved the set specifically so that a woman in the distant future would find and help the Dragon Reborn. Perhaps the "lesson" that Cadsuane will teach Rand and all the Asha'man was part of the training she recieved with the arsenal,and something handed down that the Dragon would need. I admit, there is no concrete evidence for this theory in the books. It's just an impression I get.

[Luckers]

Maybe the woman had Aviendha's talent.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As I said, it is possible.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I should have been more explicit. It is doubtful that a true wilder would have such an arsenal, and have learned how to use most of it without stilling herself.

 

It is more likely that a true Wilder would have them than an Aes Sedai. The Kin may not have studied or used the ones in Ebou Dar, but they still collected anything they thought might be Power related in that one store room. There is no indication the Tower had any record of Cadsuane's, or even knows that Cadsuane has them now. Aes Sedai having personal caches of Ter'angreal and Angreal are rather frowned on. The Tower considers all of them to be property of the Tower and Cadsuane considers her set to be hers. The very fact that Cadsuane has been studying them enough to learn the usage of most, if not all, shows that study can be done safely. Provided you don't use the Tower's "due not tread here" mentality concerning all Ter'angreal, that is.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Right. But other groups (like the Kin and the High Lords) whole gathered ter'angreal did not study and use them, because of the potential danger to channelers, and the lack of studying methods available to non-channelers. Therefore, while a wilder might find ter'angreal and keep them, it is unusual for a wilder to have such a set and know how to use it. That's assuming that the woman Cadsuane met DID know how to use the set. We don't really know what the "training" was, and there is at least one piece that Cadsuane doesn't know how to use.

[Guest cwestervelt]

And the Kin, being only openly accepting of Tower trained, would put forward the Tower's stance against experimenting with Ter'angreal. A true Wilder wouldn't have that indoctrination.

[TheDiceAgain...]

One thing about Taim being recruited by Ishamael and being taught to channel by him. As well as learning the "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" from him...

 

Ishmael was very much dead and not yet resurrected by the time Demandred and Graendal get their orders from the DO. We don't see Moridin until at least a book later. It seems to me that Taim was much more likely to have been picked up by Moridin after his resurrection and "learning the lingo" from him at that time.

 

There is, however, the fact that Taim has been channeling for a lot longer than Rand (he's 10-15 years older anyway) and hasn't yet gone mad yet. Rand has not seen the "black wires" around him that protect him from the Taint, but we know that Rand has only seen them in very specific instances, so he might have them it's just that no one has seen them, so I guess it is possible that Ishy taught him before his first death.

[Luckers]

I dont think the suggestion was ever that Taim only recently begun channeling. I personally think he was trained by Ishy around 15 to 20 years ago... we know Ishy was free around then, because he killed Alviarin's predessesor, and it makes sense that he would start preparing for Tarmon Gaidon at that stage too.

 

The Let the Lord of Choas rule thing is likely something Taim only recently got told, and not nessasarily by Moridin.

 

There is no indication the Tower had any record of Cadsuane's, or even knows that Cadsuane has them now.

 

Actually Setelle Anan knew of them, which indicates the Aes Sedai are aware of them...

[schizm]

While I think Cadsuane has quite a good chance at breaking Semirhage enough to get at least some information' date=' I'm convinced it will take a little too long for her to get information in time for Rand's trip to Arad Doman, since Rand seems to be heading there about now.

 

And of course, even if Cadsuane could make Semirhage spill out everything she knows extremely fast, nothing says Semirhage actually knows where Graendal is, or who she's posing as. She propbably knows Graendal is "somewhere in Arad Doman", but that's a bit too vague for anyone to go hunting, especially since Graendal keeps quite a low profile.[/quote']

I think there is no doubt that Cadsuanne could break Semirhage. rememeber that even Lews Therin in Rands head is very leery of Cadsuanne.

 

She doesn't seem to miss anything, and uses any slip at all to pry more out than you'd want to tell. She's a very formidable character, one that can, and I think will break Semirhage down to tears.

[Guest Majsju]

There is still the matter of time. Of course cadsuane would break Semirhage if she had unlimited time. She doesn't. TG is about to happen, Cadsuane will most likely join Rand on all expeditions he has to make before, starting with setting Tuon straight. And then there's Elza, the Compulsion Verin did on her made her set on seeing Rand reaching TG, but that should not stop her from either attempt to rescue, or attempt to kill Semirhage, if she gets such an order.

[Mat is the Boss]

My theory is that cadsuane will use an a`dam to leash Semirhage, in order to question her. When she realize she is to busy, Semirhage will be handed over to Sorilea. Sorilea is easily capable to break a Forsaken, and Cadsuane trust her. Besides, with Semirhage on a leash, Sorilea can join the fighting in TG. She probably will anyway, but since she is really weak in the Power, she can be more usefull with Semirhage`s strength in addition to her own

[Bob T Dwarf]

cw -

 

Usually I agree with you. This time not.

 

The Forsaken ( or Chosen, if you will ) are what parents have used to frighten their children throughout all of the ( so far ) known Ages of the Wheel. People haven't been running around in a panic, so far, because very, very few of them are aware that the Forsaken are free. Few even believe that the Forsaken are real. Semirhage will be able to intimidate 99.99999% of the people she meets with her name alone. Cadsuane, maybe not. And, that may be the best justification for Cadsuane's behaviour as she has been written to this point. She's simply too smug to be frightened.

 

Certainly nothing else explains why she got written into the series.