Grendeal

[algspkr]

I somehow missed that difference algspkr. Can you provide a reference, please? I just thought that Logain's ability to dominate the Aes Sedai if he chose was because he was stronger than they were in the Power.

All that is in the text is Logain saying: "I could have done without the extra bit." But in the glossary of Winter's Heart under Asha'man it says: "Although many women, including wives, flee when they learn that their men actually can channel, a fair number of men at the Black Tower are married, and they use a version of the Warder bond to create a link with their wives. This same bond, altered to compel obedience, has recently been used to bond captured Aes Sedai as well."

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thanks ... I wonder if the Tower and Rebel Aes Sedai have realized the NATURE of that warder bond? I mean, I'm sure the bonded ones have, but did they pass it along? I doubt it would sit very well with the Sisters if they did ... not that they've been happy about very much at all lately.

[algspkr]

Thanks ... I wonder if the Tower and Rebel Aes Sedai have realized the NATURE of that warder bond? I mean' date=' I'm sure the bonded ones have, but did they pass it along? I doubt it would sit very well with the Sisters if they did ... not that they've been happy about very much at all lately.[/quote']

I don't know, but in CoT we see that they have some idea of how to achieve something similar.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh I know that the Sister's bond with their warders can be used for complusion (but it was dependent on strength, Alanna tried to Compel Rand using the bond and it didn't work), and Lelaine brings up the topic of altering that bond with Egwene while they're camped outside Tar Valon in Crossroads of Twilight. For which Egwene calls her down for proposing Compulsion. I'm just wondering how they will react to having the tables turned. But I guess there's no real question there. They won't like it, but what can they do about it?

[Luckers]

Oh I know that the Sister's bond with their warders can be used for complusion (but it was dependent on strength, Alanna tried to Compel Rand using the bond and it didn't work),

 

That had nothing to do with strength, it had to do with the nature of saidin. In the chapter... LoC chapter 6 i believe... where Sammael meets Graendal he thinks to himself of how compulsion does not work on a man who is drawing on saidin. Now, whilst there is some argument that compulsion and the warder-bond version are different--and the aes sedai would like to believe so--both are relatively similar... woven primarily of spirit, they make a person do what they want. The only difference is the bond version only works on the mind of the bondmate.

 

In any case Rand was drawing on saidin, and this seems the most likely reason that Alanna could not compel him.

 

Incidently, the opposite is not true. We have seen Nynaeve, Elayne, Moggy and Cyndane all compelled whilst holding the source, not to mention Toveine and the others.

 

As for who would bond Semirhage... thats the kinch, isn't it. It would make a lot of sense, given the control over her they would gain, but it is a large scarifice for Rand to ask, and its possible it wont even cross his mind. People of that time have an unrealistic respect for the forsaken... if it worked so well on Toveine and the others, it'll work on her. And yes, there is a high chance that at least one of the Aes Sedai is stronger then her Asha'men bondmate.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thanks, I had missed that.

[Guest Majsju]

I don't think bonding Semirhage would be a very smart thing to do.

 

Week 9 Question: If it's possible to bond a Myrddraal like a Warder? For one of the Black Ajah or a Forsaken, for example? What happens then to such a person?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: It would be possible, but hardly wise because of the sharing of emotions. It is exceedingly likely that anyone who had a knot of Myrddraal emotions in his or her head, even to the small degree caused by the Warder bond, would very soon go insane. Myrddraal may contain human stock, but they are definitely not human. I don't think even Padan Fain could survive that without going madder than he already is.

 

Now, there's of course a huge difference between Semirhage and a Myrdraal, considering that she is in fact human. But she does seem about as twisted as a human possibly can be. Imagine having to share her emotions for an extended period.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't think that Semirhage, sadistic as she is, compares to a Myrdraal in this way. Unless she was bonded by a female, like Elayne and Birgitte, the emotional content can be essentially filtered out completely.

[Marrow Rahien]

RobertAlexWillis Said

I don't think that Semirhage, sadistic as she is, compares to a Myrdraal in this way. Unless she was bonded by a female, like Elayne and Birgitte, the emotional content can be essentially filtered out completely.

 

Of all the forsaken, I'd trust having Semirhage in my mind the least.....I pity whoever gets stuck with that bond.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm not saying that it would be pleasant. I'm just saying it wouldn't drive you insane. The foreignness of Myrdraal emotions is what would screw you up, not the fact that they like to skin little puppies for fun.

[Marrow Rahien]

RobertAlexWillis Said

I'm not saying that it would be pleasant. I'm just saying it wouldn't drive you insane.

 

Would the bond drive you insane? No.

Would she drive you insane? Oh yeah.

 

:D

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL ... then no man should bond ANY woman! :lol:

[Marrow Rahien]

RobertAlexWillis Said

LOL ... then no man should bond ANY woman! :lol:

 

 

Couldn't agree more! :D

 

 

Though really, I think I'd be ok trading my sanity for the +beefcake aspect of the Warders. As long as you're tough enough, who cares if you're crazy? 8)

[HawksHead]

OK...

 

SO, first off, wasn't this thread started about weather or not Gren' buys it in MoL???

in which case, I'd say yes... all the bad people buy it in some way or another in MoL... it's the last book... duh.

 

But as for Semirhage...

I'd like to mention that the books state she could terrorise people by talking to them, without even channeling.

Now I don't know how much of that is her Rep' or her skill with words, but we also knows she is an expert at healing and inflicting physical sensation, and she knows how the brain works in that fashion better than anyone.

She could probably withstand torture longer than most, because she knows exactly how far her own body would be able to go.

as for her talking her way out of her prison goes, who knows weather Cadsuane will be impressed by what Semirhage has to say or not? I'm fairly certain she can't really BE intimidated.

 

I also want to remind you all of 6 pairs of Adam found in a box in the cabin where Semirhage was captured. it's proven to be a great control method in the past, and with Semi's knowledge of healing, the Girls will undoubtedly fight over the chance to learn from her. It is also a prison weather she likes it or not, and Bonding her will not be needed.

 

hope you've been provoked into thinking some more... :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

We've already seen Moghedien leashed by an a'dam. That would be a very effective way to learn from her. Good call.

[Marrow Rahien]

RobertAlexWillis Said

We've already seen Moghedien leashed by an a'dam. That would be a very effective way to learn from her. Good call.

 

 

Though that probably would've ended up better if a Seanchan had been in charge. Those Tar Valon girls just aren't vicious enough. :D

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think if Cadsuane decides to put on the bracelet, Semi better watch out. The sadist wench would be hard pressed to hold out unfettered. Give Cadsuane that kind of leverage? <shivering> The only question is will Cadsuane be willing to use it. I think she will, in fairly short order. She seems to reach difficult decisions quickly.

[HawksHead]

another thing....

 

People seem to put too much stock in Cadsuane.

I mean, I like the woman, but she's being raised up on a pedestal which is kind of high, and I can't help thinking of the way RJ has of bringing those pedestals crashing down. And we all know... the higer they are, the harder they fall.

 

What was the unfortunate set of events which gave Cadsuane all her leverage over men who can channel?

there is some mention of it in KoD when RJ does part of an episode from her POV, but nothing is concretely stated, and we don't know a hell of a lot from NS.

 

Who is this woman???

[Marrow Rahien]

HawksHead Said

People seem to put too much stock in Cadsuane.

 

 

QFT

 

 

I miss Moiraine for a lot of reasons, but none more than the hope that her having been around would've kept Jordan from inflicting Cadsuane on us. UGH and double UGH.

[RobertAlexWillis]

She is well equipped. She has multiple ter'angreal that can detect and deal with saidin as well as saidar. She is also determined.

 

I'm guessing that she got them, along with some special training, at that mysterious cottage in the Black Hills. That thing smacks to me of some secrets handed down from one hidden Aes Sedai to another Aes Sedai, perhaps from the Breaking. Another secret within the Tower would hardly be shocking.

 

I'm not sure if anyone will have time to break Semirhage. But if anyone can do it in the time frame available, it will be Cadsuane.

[Guest Majsju]

I'm guessing that she got them, along with some special training, at that mysterious cottage in the Black Hills. That thing smacks to me of some secrets handed down from one hidden Aes Sedai to another Aes Sedai, perhaps from the Breaking. Another secret within the Tower would hardly be shocking.

 

According to Cadsuane, the old woman in the Black Hills was a wilder, so any connections to the White Tower doesn't seem likely, at least not very resent connections.

[HawksHead]

Maybe the Wilder was one of the Kin???

Has anyone thought of that?

Cadsuane was part of the Tower allready when she met her, and that meant she probably knew something of the Kin, but not all, since the Tower was kind of blind there...

but maybe the Wilder was of the Kin and Cadsuane didn't know it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, ok then, but obviously she was at least a partially trained wilder, perhaps the last member of one of the splinter groups that were around right after the Breaking near the beginning. Membership dwindles to the point where she's the only one left, so she hands off to an Aes Sedai. Obviously we don't have enough information to know for sure. But I doubt that a random wilder would have such a formidable arsenal.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Something about Cadsuane's thoughts always made me think old woman had not been to the Tower. Simply regarding her as a Wilder isn't enough though. Being a Wilder just means the person started channelling without formal instruction. Even those that go to the Tower are still regarded as Wilders afterwards, and will usually be lower in the pecking order than a non-wilder of equal strength because of it. Even Egwene got some of that treatment since her first training, while under Moiraine's tutelage, didn't occur in the Tower itself. Technically, even Moiraine and Suian are Wilders as both started channelling before going to the Tower. Moiraine while in the Sun Palace and Suian before she got bundled on the boat out of Tear.

 

Its rather ironic actually. Considering the Aes Sedai set the hierarchy on strength, you would think they would value Wilders more. The majority of those with the spark will end up as Wilders because of the lack of recruiting. The strongest channellers we see also tend to come from among the Wilders.

 

Addition: Another point. Having significant ability without training is not unprecendented. To the contrary, there are numerous examples available that fit the pattern. With the exception of Rand, all successful male channellers in the last 3000 years had to teach themselves. Logain Ablar, Guaire Amalason, Yurien Stonebow, Mazrim Taim, Owyn. Not to mention that at one time, no one could channel, so the first ones to touch the source, male and female, needed to teach themselves.

 

By the way, why do so many people hold to the theory that for Taim to have learned to channel he must have been recruited and taught by Ishamael and yet don't question how Logain learned to channel?

[Marrow Rahien]

all successful male channellers in the last 3000 years had to teach themselves. Logain Ablar' date=' Guaire Amalason, Yurien Stonebow, Mazrim Taim, Owyn. [/quote']

 

 

Has it been stated that Ishamael wasn't there whispering in all of their ears? I doubt he was for Owyn....but at least for the major players that shook the world. That seems right up his alley.