What's In The Future For Graendal?

[Paerish Swar]

She doesn't have to time anything, just set the compulsion so it'll unravel after being delved. That way when Nynaeve checks a second time it's gone, even if only 1 minute has passed.

 

That's very possible.  But I doubt it based on how the scene played out.

 

The Gathering Storm: A Force of Light

 

    Nynaeve walked over to Ramshalan and looked at him for a moment.  She hissed and said, "Yes.  Rand, he's under a heavy Compulsion.  There are a lot of weaves here.  Not as bad as the chandler's apprentice, or maybe just more subtle."

    "I say," Ramshalan said, "my Lord Dragon, what is going on?  The lady of the castle down there was quite friendly - she is an ally, my Lord.  You have nothing to fear from her!  Very refined, I must say."

 

That doesn't read to me like he had a heavy Compulsion in his mind that had suddenly unraveled.  I think he would be very confused at that moment if that were the case.  (When Moggy compelled Nynaeve with a very mild, temporary Compulsion she was noticeably confused moments after it was over.  If what you suggest were true, I would expect to see at least that after Graendal's heavier Compulsion unraveled.)

[water_seeker]

I hate to point this out (well, not really, but it's impolite enough that I won't do it again regardless of how you answer. It's all in good spirit :)) but you still haven't told us whether or not you anticipated that move by Rand.

 

I anticipated it.  Not on quite the scale that he did it to be honest.  I figured he'd BF a large portion (the most likely she'd be in).  Hitting the whole palace makes more sense though.  (Oh, and the reason I didn't anticipate the WHOLE palace was because I've always sort of...underestimated the CK)

 

And that's not really a valid question to prove your point.  This is a fictional character who is supposed to be one of the smartest people ever.  She's not you or me or anyone else on this board.  Even if she didn't anticipate a ginormous weave of BF headed her way, she'd be stupid to not at least run.

 

And another point.  Reread that passage, unless I'm mistaken there is quite a bit of time from when Ramalamadingdong meets up with Rand and Rand actually BFs the palace into nothingness...plenty of time for someone of her supposed brilliance to gtfo of dodge.  (We go from sun set low and long shadows to blackness...)

[Jeangray]

It's all in good spirit :)) but you still haven't told us whether or not you anticipated that move by Rand.

 

Yes. He did make it clear that he would use balefire from now on and he also spoke about destroying the whole fortress.

But that's irrelevant for my argument. Graendal didn't need to anticipate that to run immediately or not to be there in the first place.

 

Paerish Swar:

 

Nynaeve was confused because Moghedien compelled her to forget what just happened ans also because Nynaeve was already fighting against it. Graendal, like Rahvin before her (and like she did to other people according to her POV) clearly gave Ramshalan some false memories instead. Also, IIRC, Ramshalan doesn't actually say much after balefiring of the fortress and he is pretty shaken too - but he has other reasons for that, of course.

[yoniy0]

Even if she didn't anticipate a ginormous weave of BF headed her way, she'd be stupid to not at least run.

Graendal didn't need to anticipate that to run immediately or not to be there in the first place.

Of course she did, because we need to come up with an answer to why the Compulsion went away. A few good suggestions were made (personally, the only one that appeals to me is letting someone else weave it, but the rest are also plausible) to settle this point, but none of them makes sense if she just bolted when she realized what's happening.

[Thor]

Do I need to say this again? Graendal CANNOT make the weave unravel, it is not possible in the age of legends.

[Jeangray]

A few good suggestions were made (personally, the only one that appeals to me is letting someone else weave it, but the rest are also plausible) to settle this point, but none of them makes sense if she just bolted when she realized what's happening.

 

The one with a decoy is the one I favor too, but why wouldn't a trigger weave make sense? Graendal would want to know if Rand truly discovered her base or if it was just a frightening coincidence. Still makes sense for her to bolt, just in case. After all, Sammael could feel his trigger weave on the messenger  from hundreds or thousands of miles. Not to mention that there was even time to run _after_ Nynaeve delved Ramshalan.

Weave dissipating between the first and second delving would be feasible too, if Graendal made a mistake estimating how long it would take Ramshalan to get to the gateway or ta'veren affected events negatively, like it kept doing in Arad Doman.

 

Thor:

 

Who is talking about the unweaving? Re-read the chapter where Rahvin compels a nameless red sister. He sets his weave to dissipate because he thinks that leaving her under active compulsion might lead to discovery. Yes, there would be residues if Ramshalan's compulsion dissipated, but very few channelers have the Talent of seeing residues and Nynaeve is not one of them. She couldn't tell the difference between a weave that dissipated and the one that  never was there in the first place.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Do I need to say this again? Graendal CANNOT make the weave unravel, it is not possible in the age of legends.

 

So you're saying Graendal isnt capable learning new techniques anymore then? Think about this; Moridin watches Aviendha unravel a gateway. Of course, Moridin couldnt figure it out himself after seeing that, couldnt try doing it himself, because it wasnt possible in the Age of Legends, right? So theres no chance of Moridin exclaiming to the others "Oh my Shai'tan, I saw a Third Ager unravel a gateway!" without getting the reply "Oh well, we're from the Age of Legends, we cant learn that. Just like Mesaana cant possibly know anything about Warder bonds because they werent possible in the Age of Legends."

[Luckers]

Do I need to say this again? Graendal CANNOT make the weave unravel, it is not possible in the age of legends.

 

And your first post.

 

first of all, unraveling of weaves was impossible in age of legends, morridin proved that. so there is no way graendal could have used a conpulsion that would unravel.

 

You are speaking of unweaving, not unravelling. Unravelling a tied web happens all the time, and is indeed something Graendal knew how to do. The issue is, of course, positing that she had a way to ensure the web unravelled at the right moment.

 

after rand balefired the place, the compulsion simply was not anymore. so whoever did the compulsion was indeed bbqed. unless you want to tell me there was another female channeler who could cast compulsion there, graendal is dead.

 

That is one of the suggestions, the other is that she set the web to unravel, either after it was first delved, or in the face of balefire. Both are possible.

 

It appears that you are on the fence a bit about whether or not she's dead, but leaning towards the idea that she is in fact toast.

 

But you've never actually offered any points as to why you feel that way.  You have quite vociferously advocated for the arguments of the opposing view, but never for your own purported view of the situation.

 

I tried (have fun with that word if you will) to set out some of the points that convince me that Graendal is dead, but apparently they are the wrong points, according to you.

 

So enlighten me, please!  What are the right points for our supposedly shared arguement.  Our shared belief.

 

The argument for her dying is self evident. That what ocurred, ocurred exactly as it was apparently layed out. Specifically: "Her death seems pretty straightforward.  The compulsion on Ramshalan vanished, so its weaver must have been caught in the balefire stream"

 

I suspect your struggling to understand how I could sustain two mutually exclusive ideas. You stated that you "tried (have fun with that word if you will) to set out some of the points that convince me that Graendal is dead", but that is not what you actually did. You attempted to dismiss the 'Graendal lives' theory.

 

I fall on the side of the Graendal died theory--that what ocurred happened as it seemed to. But that doesn't require that I first dismiss the Graendal Lives theory. I can't. It would be fallacious to do so because the logic of that theory is solid.

 

You want absolutes, and there are none. You side with a theory and demand the other not exist, and that is impossible. If it were possible than there would simply be a fact, and thus no discussion.

 

And may I add that almost all the theories for Graendal's survival are dependent upon her knowing what Rand was up to, but we don't know that.  I know you say that it should be soooo obvious to her, but I've been reading and rereading that whole scene and it's not actually that obvious.

 

It's obvious to us after the fact (as I have stated), but not necessarily to her.

 

That Rand wants to kill her before she can run away and have proof of it is something she should have already known.  If she, one of the Forsaken, didn't already think that about Rands intentions, then she's not that smart.  Nothing new there.

 

The general knowledge that Rand wanted her dead is very distinct from the specific knowledge that Rand was directly about to attempt to kill her, and that he would choose a method of doing so which would occur before she could flee, and leave proof of her death.

 

And I don't understand what your attempting to do here. You are merely pointing out that she would have been prepared at any moment to deal with assault. This adds to the suggestion that she would react swiftly when Ramshalan arrived to inform her Rand was about to act on that general intention to kill her.

 

Moghedien was sent by Moridin to check in on Graendal, but she wasn't home.  Moggy decides to snoop around a bit.  She uses the MoM to impersonate Graendal to see if she can extract a little info from G's little pets.  Then, what do you know!, Ramshalan comes a knockin'.

 

Moggy decides to compel him to get some information, which she thinks might put her in better stead with Moridin.  She sends Rammy away and goes back to her snooping.  Whoops!  She stayed to long and got balefired.  Poor Moggy  

 

Aren't stories fun?!  Now . . . someone prove that I'm wrong.

 

You still don't get it, do you Paerish. This is not about proof. If we had proof, or the ability to disprove, this would not be a theory.

 

Theoretical discussion is about the weight of evidence and argument in establishing a theory as more or less likely, distinguishing likely answers from unlikely ones. Let me see if I can further explain with the example you've provided.

 

Consider.

 

Your premise: Moghedien was present at Natrin's Barrow, and chose to compel Ramshalan to soothe Rand about Graendal's intentions, and was thus unwittingly balefired.

 

Evidence: None.

 

My premise: Graendal percieved Rand's intention, and fled, leaving him false-proof of her death.

 

Evidence:-

 

1. Ramshalan informed Graendal that Rand desired to kill her before she could flee (i.e. that death fell before confrontation was realised) and that as a pre-requisit of killing her it would have to leave proof of her death.

 

2. Graendal, thus knowing the results he desired from this attack, therefore had reason to suspect he would use balefire because...

i) The methodology of what Rand wanted suggests balefire in that it would--

i) a) kill her before a fight was realised, and thus before she fled.

i) b) would undo a work of hers should it hit her thereby providing the proof Rand required.

ii) It was an obvious weapone.

iii) Rand had utilized it on Forsaken before.

iv) Moridin had just informed Rand that balefire was the only way to truly kill Forsaken, and may have passed that information along.

 

3. The connection to balefire made, the source of post-balefire proof of death Rand would seek becomes clear as compulsion because...

a) it is her signature move, and therefore the most obvious piece of work for Rand to look at.

b) it is the only piece of work she has recently done which Rand may easily judge.

c) Rand sent Ramshalan as a precursor for the attack, therefore it would be obvious that he was intended to serve the purposes outlied in Rand's list of requirements for the result of the attack--to prove her presense, and later to prove her death.

 

 

Do you now see the distinctions on this level? Neither theory can be proven or disproven, yet the Moghedian theory can be dismissed as utter tripe, whilst the Graendal lives theory retains logical validity.

 

As long as your looking at this in terms of absolutes you are going to be dissapointed. That Graendal Lives and That Graendal Died are both theories with logical consistancy, and no proof one way or the other.

 

So, that has kind of been my point all along.  We can fill this gap in time and gap in pov with 25 paragraphs of complex narrative that we have no proof for, or we could accept the situation on face value.  Filling in the narrative is actually the easier one to do, because we can take it almost anywhere we want to.  There are so many more options, and no one can refute them as long as they're remotely "possible."

 

The inherent variance of theoretical discussion is why the discipline of logic exists. That we do not know the answer does not mean that we are therefore required to judge all theories as equally likely or equally unlikely. The viability of theories may be obtained, and the lack of proof has nothing to do with this discipline.

 

Incidentally, for all that I believe at this point that she did die, I do not reguard our positions on that as equal. The insistance of face value equating truth is a fallacious argument.

 

Face value, or fill in the blank?  Neither are even close to perfect.

 

What blanks have been filled in? Filling implies the insertion of that which is not present, and that is not what has occurred. Looking at the rough materials and connecting the dots, is more what has ocurred.

 

Now, what are the "right" points in the case for Graendal being toast?  I'm going to wait patiently for an education on the matter.

 

Thanks for starting it off, yoniy0.

 

Point #1 :  No way to prove that Graendal knew Rand's intentions.  We didn't see it coming while we were reading it (or at least yoniy0 and I didn't), and we know Rand better than Graendal does.  Where is the evidence that she figured out what Rand was planning?

 

That is not a point for her dying. That you cannot prove Graendal knew Rand's intentions does not mean she did not know them. The 'you can't prove otherwise therefore I am right' argument is a fail. Sorry.

[Demiandre]

first of all, unraveling of weaves was impossible in age of legends, morridin proved that. so there is no way graendal could have used a conpulsion that would unravel.

 

Do I need to say this again? Graendal CANNOT make the weave unravel, it is not possible in the age of legends.

 

I think you're mistaken, because unravelling weaves is not the same as what Aviendha is doing in the Path of Dagger. Aviendha pick threads out of the weaves to hinder people from reading the residues. On the other hand, you can set some kind of timer for the weave to dissipate, as Nynaeve is doing in the Gathering Storm xith the shields of the damane. Moridin is impressed - very impressed - by what Aviendha has been doing with her Gateway. Which didn't existed in the Age of Legend.

 

So Graendal could just have set a limit of - let say - 30 minutes, before letting her weave dissipate. If Nynaeve had been trying to read the residues (which is a Talent that Aviendha posses, by the way) she could probably have found some remnant of the weave used on poor Lord Ramshalan...

[Thor]

first of all, unraveling of weaves was impossible in age of legends, morridin proved that. so there is no way graendal could have used a conpulsion that would unravel.

 

Do I need to say this again? Graendal CANNOT make the weave unravel, it is not possible in the age of legends.

 

I think you're mistaken, because unravelling weaves is not the same as what Aviendha is doing in the Path of Dagger. Aviendha pick threads out of the weaves to hinder people from reading the residues. On the other hand, you can set some kind of timer for the weave to dissipate, as Nynaeve is doing in the Gathering Storm xith the shields of the damane. Moridin is impressed - very impressed - by what Aviendha has been doing with her Gateway. Which didn't existed in the Age of Legend.

 

So Graendal could just have set a limit of - let say - 30 minutes, before letting her weave dissipate. If Nynaeve had been trying to read the residues (which is a Talent that Aviendha posses, by the way) she could probably have found some remnant of the weave used on poor Lord Ramshalan...

 

no, any channeler can read residues. If there was any residue, nynaeve would have picked it up immediately.  The compulsion simply ceased to be after the balefire, ie whoever did the compulsion is dead beyond dead.

[Demiandre]

The exact quote  is :

 

(tPoD ch.2 Unweaving) Merillile snorted, a very strong sound to come from that slight body. "That's a rare Talent, girl. Neither Teslyn nor Joline has it. Or do you Aiel wilders all learn that as well?"

 

"Few can do it," Aviendha admitted calmly."But I can." That produced a different sort of stares, from Elayne as well; it was a very rare Talent.

 

Nynaeve don't has this Talent. Remember the sisters sent to Shadar Logoth. They were not strong, or even from the same Ajah, but the best to be found around at reading residues. and they were only three!

[Thor]

The talent is to unravel, not to read.

 

Reading residue is not a talent, it's a base ability.

[Demiandre]

So I'll quote clearer :

 

Aviendha did not quite include her in the exasperated look she gave the other sisters. "This leave no residue," she said patiently. Too patiently. "The residues of a weave this large might be read two days from now,"

and then the quote :

 

(tPoD ch.2 Unweaving) Merillile snorted, a very strong sound to come from that slight body. "That's a rare Talent, girl. Neither Teslyn nor Joline has it. Or do you Aiel wilders all learn that as well?"

 

"Few can do it," Aviendha admitted calmly."But I can." That produced a different sort of stares, from Elayne as well; it was a very rare Talent.

 

They ARE speaking of reading residue, not unravelling (which is the bas ability, instead of reading residues)

 

I'm sorry to say you're wrong, man

[Luckers]

Thor you are incorrect. Reading residues is a Talent, and a very rare one. Unweaving webs is a skill, which any may be trained in, as stated by Aviendha. Unravelling tied knots is neither skill nor Talent, but simply a function of how you tie off the web.

 

Nynaeve does not have the Talent to read residues.

[Thor]

Ok quote the place where it says reading residue is a talent, or any place where it says person x cannot read a residue.

 

It is true they cannot tell the function of the weave, but anyone can see the residue.

 

And stop flinging 'Talent' around as it matters anything. Travelling is a Talent too, but it's clear everyone who is strong enough can do it.

[Demiandre]

Don't you saw my quotes? You didn't understood that the first was talking about Reading residue was a Talent, so I quoted again what is said just before the first. So the two quotes are the same discussion, the same paragraph. It so says that Reading residue is a Talent, which is quite rare, that Jolin and Teslyn can't, and that Aviendha can.

 

You may perhaps see the flow, but won't understand what it is. Rand can guess what flows were for, as during his fight against sammael, he feels a remnant of a gateway and understand where Sammael has been fleeing.

 

Unweaving is something that makes Reading Residues impossible. And yes, the fact that it is a rare Talent, that means that there are common Talents, just as Travelling, Skimming, Delving (health), Healing (more or less strong), and others.

 

[Mr Hindley]

Er, getting back to Graendal... Am I imagining this, or was there a signing where Brandon got asked about this and he said, 'Yes, a woman died there'? Which would pretty much indicate the decoy theory rather than any deliberately-dissipating weave.

 

Can't find the reference though, I may be hallucinating - it's hot in London just now...

[Thor]

Don't you saw my quotes? You didn't understood that the first was talking about Reading residue was a Talent, so I quoted again what is said just before the first. So the two quotes are the same discussion, the same paragraph. It so says that Reading residue is a Talent, which is quite rare, that Jolin and Teslyn can't, and that Aviendha can.

 

You may perhaps see the flow, but won't understand what it is. Rand can guess what flows were for, as during his fight against sammael, he feels a remnant of a gateway and understand where Sammael has been fleeing.

 

Unweaving is something that makes Reading Residues impossible. And yes, the fact that it is a rare Talent, that means that there are common Talents, just as Travelling, Skimming, Delving (health), Healing (more or less strong), and others.

 

 

your quote completely disproves your point and proves my point. so i have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.

 

It's clear as crystal that everybody can read a residue if it is there.

[Demiandre]

EDIT : @Mr Hindley

 

I rather think it means servant and Grandal's puppets and many other person I guess have been gently put at the doors of the pattern by a tiny stream of about the Hiroshima's nuclzar bomb of the strongest weapon to be found around...

 

Just saying yes a woman is dead there while saying, yes, water is wet!

 

It's a good joke, though!

[Demiandre]

Don't you saw my quotes? You didn't understood that the first was talking about Reading residue was a Talent, so I quoted again what is said just before the first. So the two quotes are the same discussion, the same paragraph. It so says that Reading residue is a Talent, which is quite rare, that Jolin and Teslyn can't, and that Aviendha can.

 

You may perhaps see the flow, but won't understand what it is. Rand can guess what flows were for, as during his fight against sammael, he feels a remnant of a gateway and understand where Sammael has been fleeing.

 

Unweaving is something that makes Reading Residues impossible. And yes, the fact that it is a rare Talent, that means that there are common Talents, just as Travelling, Skimming, Delving (health), Healing (more or less strong), and others.

 

 

your quote completely disproves your point and proves my point. so i have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.

 

It's clear as crystal that everybody can read a residue if it is there.

 

I don't know where it is stated. Provide the quote if you find it.

 

What I said was :

 

*Reading Residues is a Talent.

* It is a rare Talent

* Aviendha can Read Residues

* Joslin and Teslyn can't Read Residues.

* Forsaken probably know (some at least)

* Rand can Read Residues

* Aiels know how to Unweave a weave

* It wasn't know in the Age of Legend

* Unweaving unables Reading Residues

* You can unravel a Weave, or make it unravel when you want.

* Graendal surely know how to unravel a weave, as it is part of the weave, so isn't a Talent, but a type of weaving.

* She could have compelled Ramshalan with an unattached weave, or using an unraveling one.

* She could have fled without notice.

* As Nynaeve can't read Residues, Rand is duped by smarter than he is.

[Thor]

So I'll quote clearer :

 

Aviendha did not quite include her in the exasperated look she gave the other sisters. "This leave no residue," she said patiently. Too patiently. "The residues of a weave this large might be read two days from now,"

and then the quote :

 

(tPoD ch.2 Unweaving) Merillile snorted, a very strong sound to come from that slight body. "That's a rare Talent, girl. Neither Teslyn nor Joline has it. Or do you Aiel wilders all learn that as well?"

 

"Few can do it," Aviendha admitted calmly."But I can." That produced a different sort of stares, from Elayne as well; it was a very rare Talent.

 

They ARE speaking of reading residue, not unravelling (which is the bas ability, instead of reading residues)

 

I'm sorry to say you're wrong, man

 

this quote of yours clearly shows that anybody can read a residue if it's there. and the rare talent is the unravelling, and not reading.

 

therefore, graendal is dead.

[Demiandre]

This is a joke of yours or what??

There isn't any mention of unravelling in this conversation, as they are talking about why sge unweaved the Gateway, which every Aes Sedai is taught never to try. She then answers that that leaves no residues to be read, which seems not really relevant as very few can rzad residues, among them teslyn and joline, the two sisters who could have been looking for them. But aviendha replies she can, which impressed the Aes Sedai.

 

This is stated and clear as water. Go back reading the chapter and ypu will understand.

 

Else we are misunderstanding what the other one is saying, else you're just trolling around and trying to get me angry, but it is written black on white!

[Fains nose]

Anyone can sense residues of their respective power, the very rare Talent is reading what the residues mean exactly, a gateway, a globe of light, the very rare talent is sensing residue(which everyone can do) and determining the exact weave that left the residue(which is a very rare Talent)

[Fains nose]

Also unraveling weaves isnt a Talent, at least its something anyone can learn with practice(according to avienda)

[Jeangray]

Anyone can sense residues of their respective power

 

Cite, please. The only people who see the residues in text are Rand, Aviendha and possibly Moiraine. Moiraine also does something suspiciously like unweaving in TEoTW, though, so she probably has the Talent too.