Military Leadership During the Last Battle

[RobertAlexWillis]

It also makes destabilizing Seanchan and Shara more significant moves in the Dark One's plan.

[Luckers]

Interesting idea... and possible... Think also of those people... the ones the Sea Folk protect (Amayar?). Yet the choas in Seanchan was somewhat off hand... done as an idle fancy...for me to think it. Both seanchan and Shara have a far greater population then Randland. You would think there would be more focus on seeing them attacked/injured, and as far as we know the only unrest in Shara is just general Dragonsworn problems.

 

I think it would take a lot of time and the freedom to act for channelers to widen the bore sufficiently to free the Dark One, or they would have done it long ago. Thats why i think the Dark One wants the light eliminated... so he has the freedom to act.

[Jarred Darque]

Ah but the pattern is made up of the interweving of threads of peoples lives, so if you could (in theory) lessen the population of a certain physical area, then the pattern would be thinner in that place of the pattern. This would make sense why theDO might concentrate on randland a bit more, it IS the weakest out of Randland, Seanchen, and Shara the last two are unified, and strong the first is not by any account. But if rand could pull the land together, he could, unknowingly, tighten the pattern there.

[Luckers]

You must remember the wheel and the age lace and the like are metaphoric constructs--even RJ said so. I doubt it would be as simple.

 

And why would humans be major threads? Why not mountains... or molecules of air... both are constant for far longer... Humans don't exist long, and the change frequently. I'd say its far more likely they they are minor threads and thats what gives them their flexibility, because they are so tiny that when they do alter the flow of their progression it doesn't effect much... of course they can't simply side-step the weave completely, but they have more freedom.

 

Finally if that was the case why would Ishamael arrange for the Seanchan Return?

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Seanchan Return has probably killed more Seanchan than anything since the Consolidation, not to mention sparking multiple wars in Randland, which killed alot of people, and of course, Semi plunged the rest of the continent into war behind them, with the heir to the throne and a good chunk of the army absent. Considerable population reduction.

 

I'm wondering if it isn't the conscious threads that keep the Dark One out of the Pattern. People who follow the Light make a big deal of how he can't force you to follow him (channelers excepted in some circumstances), so maybe it is the conscious rejection by so many "threads" that keeps him out. I'm not sure how conscious mountains would be ... and we know at least wolves are involved, as well as human strands specifically. Thats pretty mystical, I know, but its the only way I can think of that war helps the Dark One get out ... do you have any ideas on what actually breaks him free? If it was just a matter of the Seals, then he would have been free before Lews Therin sealed him.

[Luckers]

I suspect its just a matter of widening the bore far enough that he can assert enough power to break the wheel. I doubt he could ever be free while the wheel still exists, he's probably too fat.

 

My point about the Seanchan was more that the Seanchan brought massive amounts of numbers back to Randland propper... it was in response to your comment that that is why the Dark One was focusing on Randland... because there were less people there. In line with that it doesn't really make sense.

 

As for the idea of concious threads... its possible, I suspect the World of Dreams is made by miasma from people's consciousness, so it seems likely that such a thing CAN have an effect on reality. It is likely though, that if this is the case, it is not a result of conciously denying the Dark One... were that the case the Dark One likely could have destroyed reality as soon as the bore was drilled, before anyone learnt of him.

 

But the War in the AOL was started by the light in a bid to stop the darkfriends from freeing the Dark One, which makes me suspect there is something that can be done intentionally, it just takes time and effort. The war was fought, i suspect, more to keep the Light from interfering... possibly that can be done from far off. And also if it were just a matter of conscious minds, the Dark would have started the war, not the light.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah, thats a potential hole in my theory ... the only thing that might explain it is that maybe there was some big weapon, or the Power driven equivalent of a nuclear plant, that would have caused massive devastation if they had "blown it up". Thats VERY speculative I know ...

 

And regarding the population decline ... I noted it in Randland, because that is where the BWB mentions it, but IF (again, IF) my theory is correct, then the Dark One would want to reduce populations world wide. The Return, and what Graendal did in Shara, mean that war is now literally everywhere. Also, it makes me wonder if someone working for the Dark One had something to do with the Tremalking prophecy and the Amayar's mass-suicide. That seems kind of pointless to put in the story otherwise. And we know that Ishy tampered with a prophecy in Seanchan.

[Luckers]

What Graendal did didn't have any wide-scale effects as far as we can tell. The people she took were puppets, and the Ayyad likely replaced them with relative ease. All we have heard is that Sharans are asking after the Dragon at the Cliffs of Dawn, and that there are rumours of unrest. Compared to other places it doesn't sound very serious.

 

I actually mentioned the Amayar earlier, the thought occured to me also. It seems like something Ishy would do.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Given the fact that you usually hear nothing at all, hearing rumors of unrest is significant. By itself it wouldn't be sufficient, but taken as part of the pattern in which every other land has been thrown into chaos (per the Dark One's specific instructions) it seems to fit. It's not conclusive, of course, but this whole line is speculative.

[Luckers]

True, but on the other hand Graendal specifically decries doing anything in Shara... she says it may prove useful after the Return, but until then she could see no use. In fact she specifically states that she went to all that work, capturing the two rulers, for the sole purpose of that meeting with Sammael. It doesn't sound like the Dark has any real interest in that nation.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. This is, by the way, the most irritating way for me to end an argument, at least from my point of view .... unresolved .... grrrr

[algspkr]

The "leaders" of Shara were nesseccary for the channellers to rule there. The rest of the population won't accept their direct rule. The land is in chaos, as can be seen in KoD when Rand over hears a guy selling silk worms in a bar.

[Luckers]

One was a Seanchan, the other not--possibly sharan--and they were arguing over whether silk was made from worms or on a tree...

 

I'm relatively certain the channelers could replace those rulers with great ease. They killed them off every 7 years as the will of the pattern which already sets the function in place. Compel a couple of the powerful people into believing it, and then announce it to the masses that the rulers had been removed by the will of the pattern in response to... whatever... tarmon gai'don approaching. They wouldn't challange it. Remember too that the Ayyad are numerous and spread out through the land, likely with people near to every person that has even remote power, controlling them. No, that wouldn't be destabalized by the death of the rulers.

 

Remember too that it must have happened in the past. Natural death and the like. And also its unlikely the people even saw the rulers except from a distance at special functions. By all reports the Ayyad rule Shara with and iron fist.

 

And we certainly have no evidence that the land is in chaos.

[DemandredFO]

Luckers, since you seem to be a WOT expert, thumbs Up. Do you know if RJ has said anywhere even very rough numbers on Wolves? Thanks

[Luckers]

No he hasn't, but i suspect they are numerous. In the past when Perrin has called hundred have gathered in a matter of days. This to me indicates a fairly large population distribution. Also there is the concideration of the Wolves that live in tel'aran'rhiod. I'm uncertain yet whether the last battle will spill into the dreamworld, but Hopper did promise to be with Perrin in the Last Hunt, suggesting that it might very well.