Who/what is Shaidar Haran?

[Shadow Rider]

I think the Dark One possesses something to become Shaidar, because Shaidar channels what looks like the True Power and that requires the ability to channel. This would fit into the bigger picture of my theory on Rand sacrificing himself for the Dark One to possess him, then Alivia kills Rands original body with the Dark One/part of the Dark One in him. The Dark Ones power cant be used inside the Pattern without the ability to use the Creators power.

 

I really don't think that The Great Lord can inhabit SH...... If he breaks free it's just HIM.

[OptimusPrime]

I think the Dark One possesses something to become Shaidar, because Shaidar channels what looks like the True Power and that requires the ability to channel. This would fit into the bigger picture of my theory on Rand sacrificing himself for the Dark One to possess him, then Alivia kills Rands original body with the Dark One/part of the Dark One in him. The Dark Ones power cant be used inside the Pattern without the ability to use the Creators power.

 

I really don't think that The Great Lord can inhabit SH...... If he breaks free it's just HIM.

 

I wasnt saying the Dark One inhabits Shaidar. I was saying Shaidar IS the Dark One inhabitting something else.

[Shadow Rider]

I don't think it's posible

[OptimusPrime]

It could definitely be another of my loony theories, but I think when Moridin notes that "the price [of excessive True Power usage] was always worth it" I think this was what he was on about; the Dark One can possess something that uses the True Power, how vulnerable depends on their usage. Moridin can be possessed relatively easily, but still needs to stay near Shayol Ghul. Rand goes to Shayol Ghul, channels the True Power, sacrificing himself to lure the Dark One to possess him, Rand changes into something similar to Shaidar or Ba'alzamon...

 

Its another insane speculation with nothing major to back it up, but it looks good in my head hahaha

[Shadow Rider]

I have had a few loony or insane theoris...as I think of them I'll post them...

It is important to analyze every angle....pick the books apart find hidden things, it's so exciting sometimes....am I a nerd?

[DocBean]

My brother-in-law has been reading the books for decades, and as far as I can tell he's never done a reread.

He reads them as they come out and moves on to the next one.

 

However, in talking with him he always has interesting ways of looking at things.

Usually he's forgotten stuff, or misses other things, but it's nice to get a point of view from someone that doesn't use forums.

Anyway, he interpreted SH as the Dark One himself. He says it's pretty clear to him that SH is actually the Dark One walking the world.

just not at full strength.

 

I think sometimes it's nice to get a fresh perspective, a lot of times on these forums people completely throw out someone's theory.

I think your theory has merit; however, I think it's more likely that SH is actually the Dark One then he is Moridin.

 

My opinion is that he's just a Dark One avatar, and works closely with Moridin, but he could be a lot of things.

[Cirin]

I'm inclined to believe that he is as much a direct representative of the Dark One's will as is possible at the moment... if for no other reason because of the responses of the Chosen and the Black Ajah.

 

Now I realize this is just from Alviarin's point of view, but I have no reason to suspect that she is wrong about it.  It's as much indication as to who/what Shaidar Haran is that we've been given, and sometimes what we're given is the truth (sometimes  ;) ).

 

(Warning: Block quote coming up!  Most relevant portions in bold)

 

"Do you think Hand of the Shadow is just a name?" The Myrddraal's voice no longer grated. Hollow, it seemed to boom down caverns from some unimaginable distance. The creature grew as it spoke, swelling in size till its head brushed the ceiling, over two spans up. "You were summoned, and you did not come. My hand reaches far, Mesaana."

Shaking visibly, the Chosen opened her mouth, perhaps to plead, but suddenly black fire flashed around her, and she screamed as her clothing fell away in dust. Bands of black flame bound her arms to her sides, wrapped tight around her legs, and a seething ball of black appeared in her mouth, forcing her jaws wide. She writhed there, standing naked and helpless, and the look in her rolling eyes made Alviarin want to soil herself.

"Do you want to know why one of the Chosen must be punished?" The voice was a bone-grating rasp once more, the Myrddraal seemingly only a too-tall Lurk, but Alviarin was not fooled. "Do you want to watch?" it asked.

She should go facedown on the floor, grovel for her life, but she could not move. She could not look away from that eyeless stare. "No, Great Lord," she managed with a mouth as dry as dust. She knew. It could not be, but she knew. Tears were rolling down her cheeks, she realized.

The Myrddraal smiled again. "Many have fallen from great heights for wanting to know too much."

It flowed toward her -- no; not it -- the Great Lord, clothed in the skin of a Myrddraal, flowed toward her. He walked on legs, yet there was no other description for the way he moved. The pale, black-clad shape bent toward her, and she would have shrieked when he touched a finger to her forehead. She would have shrieked if she could have summoned any sound at all. Her lungs were airless sacks. The touch burned like red-hot iron. Vaguely, she wondered why she did not smell her own flesh burning. The Great Lord straightened, and the searing pain dwindled, vanished. Her terror did not lessen in the slightest, though.

"You are marked as mine," the Great Lord rasped. "Mesaana will not harm you, now. Unless I give her permission. You will find who threatens my creatures here and deliver them to me." He turned away from her, and the dark armor fell from his body. She was startled when it hit the carpeted floor tiles with a crash of steel rather than simply vanishing. He was clothed in black, and she could not have said whether it was silk or leather or something else. The darkness of it seemed to drink the light from the room. Mesaana began to thrash in her bonds, keening shrilly past the gag in her mouth. "Go now," he said, "if you wish to live another hour." The sound coming from Mesaana rose to a despairing scream.

 

~Crossroads of Twilight: Chapter 21

 

Also, this makes me a little curious - the mark that he gave to Alviarin: think it's the same as a Chosen mark, or different?

[FarShainMael]

Here's an interesting little item about SH. In aCoS Ch 40, he  'feels achy and weak, too long away from Shayol Ghul. He badly wants to find a way to sever that tie.' (From EncWoT)

 

It would fit SH being an avatar of the DO.. but it would also fit him being the DO Itself, feeling the effects of Its imprisonment more when It literally overstretches Itself.

 

[DocBean]

I've screwed up by posting on this thread and on the Big Unnoticed Thing thread.

 

I'm hooked on trying to find this big hidden thing, so for now I'll keep posting there.

 

I'm starting to talk myself into believing that Shaidar Haran is actually the Dark One himself.

[Mr Ares]

Also, this makes me a little curious - the mark that he gave to Alviarin: think it's the same as a Chosen mark, or different?

RJ said they were different.

 

I'm starting to talk myself into believing that Shaidar Haran is actually the Dark One himself.

Well, given Maj posted the RJ quote saying SH was Shai'tan "in shadowy form", you should be doing a bit more than starting.

 

SH being Moridin is impossible. We have POVs from both.

[Cirin]

Also, this makes me a little curious - the mark that he gave to Alviarin: think it's the same as a Chosen mark, or different?

RJ said they were different.

 

I'm starting to talk myself into believing that Shaidar Haran is actually the Dark One himself.

Well, given Maj posted the RJ quote saying SH was Shai'tan "in shadowy form", you should be doing a bit more than starting.

 

SH being Moridin is impossible. We have POVs from both.

 

Thanks for the clarification on Alviarin's mark!

 

And yeah... I'm surprised people are still asking this question.  I posted that quote above to indicate that they told us that, plainly, in the book...

[OptimusPrime]

SH being Moridin is impossible. We have POVs from both.

 

Nobody said theyre the same.

[Majsju]

SH being Moridin is impossible. We have POVs from both.

 

Nobody said theyre the same.

Oh really? Lets look at the very first post in this thread...

 

 

 

It is My theory that Moridin and Shaidar Haran are one and the same.

 

 

Oops.

[farthammer]

Maybe we are just witnessing Fade evolution (somewhat kidding).  If you are a normal Fade, having to put up with obeying the Forsaken all the time is probably bad for your health.  I wonder why they have not even suspected they might be getting replaced and made irrelevant by fades on steroids.

[Shadow Rider]

Here's an interesting little item about SH. In aCoS Ch 40, he  'feels achy and weak, too long away from Shayol Ghul. He badly wants to find a way to sever that tie.' (From EncWoT)

 

It would fit SH being an avatar of the DO.. but it would also fit him being the DO Itself, feeling the effects of Its imprisonment more when It literally overstretches Itself.

 

 

I am not convinced....and I did read the ch mentioned above ..... Moridin is known as the Watcher & the Wanderer ..... in the above ch SH is referred to as the Watcher.

 

 

The quote below is Moridins POV from the DM encyclopaedia.

 

As the Watcher, he watches the meeting between Sevanna  and the Wise Ones and Sammael  and Graendal. He thinks Sammael's actions will increase chaos so they are okay. (ACoS,Ch20)

[Shadow Rider]

My brother-in-law has been reading the books for decades, and as far as I can tell he's never done a reread.

He reads them as they come out and moves on to the next one.

 

However, in talking with him he always has interesting ways of looking at things.

Usually he's forgotten stuff, or misses other things, but it's nice to get a point of view from someone that doesn't use forums.

Anyway, he interpreted SH as the Dark One himself. He says it's pretty clear to him that SH is actually the Dark One walking the world.

just not at full strength.

 

I think sometimes it's nice to get a fresh perspective, a lot of times on these forums people completely throw out someone's theory.

I think your theory has merit; however, I think it's more likely that SH is actually the Dark One then he is Moridin.

 

My opinion is that he's just a Dark One avatar, and works closely with Moridin, but he could be a lot of things.

 

I totally agree with an independent POV....my older brother introduced me to WoT but he's Computer illiterate, so he doesn't post or lurk unless he's here looking over my shoulder.

I've gotten a couple of theories off him that I've posted and I have a question of his I'll ask in the 'Ask a simple question get a simple answer' thread...

 

[OptimusPrime]

SH being Moridin is impossible. We have POVs from both.

 

Nobody said theyre the same.

Oh really? Lets look at the very first post in this thread...

 

 

 

It is My theory that Moridin and Shaidar Haran are one and the same.

 

 

Oops.

 

Hahahaha touche salesman

[Shadow Rider]

Still playing with this Watcher thing, you could easily say Moridin is the Watcher in TAR.

[Shadow Rider]

More evidence.

 

Scene:Moridin aids Rand in Shaidar Logoth

as Rand battles Sammael.

 

aCoS, ch 41, A Crown of Swords.

 

"A hand grabbed his right wrist. " You are a fool," a mans deep voice

said. "Count yourself lucky I don't care to see you die today."

The hand began drawing him up. "Are you going to help?"  The voice

demanded. "I don't intend to carry you on my shoulders, or kill

Sammael for you."

 

And a little further into the same chapter.

 

aCoS, ch 41, A Crown of Swords.

 

The man laughed wryly. "You can find your way it seems. If you are lead

by the hand. Try not to stumble. A great many plans will have to be

relaid if you let yourself be killed now." Turning he started across the

street for an alleyway just ahead of them.

 

 

Are these clues?..... or is it just the way it's written?

[Vambram]

Let me ask a quick question about Shaidar Haran.

What evidence is there that Shaidar Haran can easily cut off, or shield channelers on the side of the Light from saidar and/or saidin?

[Mr Ares]

Are these clues?

No. Not unless you are completely insane.

 

What evidence is there that Shaidar Haran can easily cut off, or shield channelers on the side of the Light from the saidar or saidin?

None.

[Shadow Rider]

Let me ask a quick question about Shaidar Haran.

What evidence is there that Shaidar Haran can easily cut off, or shield channelers on the side of the Light from the saidar or saidin?

 

The evidence is in aCoS....

SH can see the residue of Sammael and Graendals gateways...

He can also smell them, the sent is different for Saidar and Saidan.

[Shadow Rider]

No. Not unless you are completely insane.

 

Is it so hard to see what is staring you right in the face.

[Barid Bel Medar]

while i suppose you cant 100% prove that SH is not Moridin, i am pretty sure he isnt. Firstly, there is no point in Moridin posing as SH, the forsaken all do what he says in any case, and Moridin could do anything in his own body that SH does.

 

SH, as posted earlier, can sense saidin and saidar like an average myrddraal with the whole itch thing (aCoS somewhere) Moridin, im pretty sure is just a human.

 

Rand is connected to Moridin, he can see his face and both start adopting each others mannerisms, SH is not evident in this link, and his hand seems fine in tGS, where Moridin's is injured due to Rand's getting blown off.

 

RJ has talked about it in interviews, and discusses SH's powers as a reflection of the DO in Myrddraal form, and thats most likely what SH is (unless RJ was lying ;))

 

As i said, there isnt enough evidence to rule out the SH/Moridin theory completely, and I may be wrong, but its almost impossible that they are the same, theres just no point in Moridin going to the effort to do it.

[Shadow Rider]

It's my understanding that SH is the shadow of an image of The Great Lord, not the The Great lord himself, an image.

Moridin is Nae'blis and your right he is just human....he maybe able to transform into SH with all the powers a halfman has.

We have yet to see SH & Moridin on screen together.