Lews Therin—Our Friendly Neighbourhood Madman

[OptimusPrime]

Its hard to say it right... Lews Therins voice/entity is the construct Rand made to ward off the memories and mannerisms. But the memories are supposed to help him, he just didnt know.

 

But what reason do you have to suggest this?

 

 

Because theres not a chance in hell he would have survived as long without them. The memories themselves have never, ever been a problem. The way Rand deals with them is the problem. If he had someone to say "Look, you're going to have Lews Therins memories at some point, thats supposed to happen" he wouldnt have struggled with it.

 

This entire thing does not just include Lews Therin, because Rand remembers more lives. That happened after Lews Therin was gone. What possible reason is there to think Rand descended into terminal madness in VoG?

[scott_swampy]

Support For The Real Madness Theory

 

Take it away Semirhage.

 

Quote

"He's insane," she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min's knife hilt still sticking out beside her collarbone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. "Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin's voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be . . . abrupt."

 

[KoD; 27, A Plain Wooden Box]

 

In this world the manifestation of a real past life personality is a genuine mental illness, one which can cause a descent into terminal madness.

 

To me this passage indicates that reintegration was the solution or treatment  to hearing both voices and hearing "real" voices.

 

So really, not dismissing Semi's evidence that real voice exist, you can't use the fact that rand Reintegrated with LTT in VoG as evidence of the real madness theory because, by the above quote from semi, it was easier to gain reintegration with a normal, if that word can apply here, voice in you head than with a "real" voice.

 

Notice the statement "Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice". Coupled with her earlier statement's would indicate that Graendal did  manage reintegration with "normal" voices in people head's. So, in my opinion, it would be far more likely fro rand to archive this feat than to have archived a task that a noted mental illness expert had trouble with.

 

Again, not dismissing Semi's evidence that it is a real voice in Rand's head, just saying that you can't use the event's of VoG to support it because that could go either way, and in fact leans towards construct.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Im not sure which theory this comes into, but my view is Rand is LTT reborn, he has his memories and mannerisms. Take Birgitte for example, she has been reborn several times over the ages, but she is still the same soul, this is the same with Rand. He is LTT soul just as LTT was the same soul as the person before him. So LTT is a different facet of the Soul's personality that has manifested itself into Rand. (I cannot 100% how this happened and why it doesnt happen to everyone so I will not theorize.) So in a way, LTT is independant, as he is a particular aspect of this soul's life which is independant in experience from all the others, while he is also the same as Rand, at least his soul.

 

Sorry if that doesnt make much sense it is hard to explain, but thats my 2 cents

[Paerish Swar]

----|----------------|----------------|----------------|----

LTT is Mad/    1000 yrs later  2000 yrs later  Reborn as Rand al'Thor

Kills himself        in T'a'r              in T'a'r                    *hears a voice

 

 

So here's a silly little line chart representing various "stages" of what the Dragon's soul was going through across time.

 

I put it up to highlight my biggest question about this LTT "realness" stuff.

 

- LTT the individual lived for hundreds of years completely sane.

- LTT was driven insane for a very short while, relatively speaking, by the DO's shadow on Saidin.

- LTT kills himself and, as a Hero bound to the Wheel, returns to T'a'r.

- If Brigitte and Hawking are to be believed, when a Hero returns to T'a'r he/she experiences a reintigration of of the memories and experiences of ALL previous

    incarnations.  Also, there does not appear to be any real lasting effects on the individual in T'a'r in regards to any physical damage that occurred in the preceding

    incarnation.  I would believe that that would include the taint-induced madness of LTT.  (The Lanfear/transmigration discussion and answers from RJ and BS corroborate this

    as well - you know, a channeler burned out in one life won't normally be burned out in the next, etc.)

 

So, what exactly is "real" about the voice?

 

If it's real, why would it be insane and unaware of all the previous incarnations?

 

The only way that could possibly happen is if the "real" voice were specifically just the LTT voice from that really, really tiny fraction of a time where LTT himself actually existed, was actually insane, and did not have the T'a'r consciousness integration.

 

So, is the voice then not just real, but also a time traveling consciousness?  Is there some kind of wormhole that was connecting Rand to LTT in the moment just before Kinslayer blew himself up?

 

It just doesn't make sense.

 

You see, in my mind, if the LTT voice were a real distinct personality, or facet, or whatever you want to call it, it would have to be expressed in a manner that is consistent with the state it was last in.  That state was as a completely sane, universally integrated Hero in T'a'r.  Not a raving, babbling, whimpering, suicidal madman from the AoL.

 

For this "Real Madness Theory" to work, there has to be a whole other piece to it that has to be explained.

 

Why a facet personality that hasn't existed for over 3000 years, when there was a more recent expression of the Dragon consciousness that persisted in T'a'r continuously up until the day Rand was born?

 

(Also, the Semirhage statement must be taken with a number of grains of salt.  And I'm not just talking about the possibility of lying.  I'm talking about how unlikely it was that Graendal had experience with the mental health and personality disorders of people as strongly ta'veren as the Dragon, and that she never had a chance to study the effects of the taint.  Whatever knowledge Semirhage says that Graendal has, it may or may not have any bearing on what Rand is experiencing in this case.)

 

That's just my two cents.

 

If somebody has some solid answers for my questions, I'd love to hear 'em.

[Morsker]

I don't get the criticism that LTT died sane, but the voice being insane. LTT didn't die sane at all; he was healed, but he still killed himself in grief over Ileyna. He was also betrayed by all his male generals, and felt betrayed by the female Aes Sedai who wouldn't go along with his plan. This is most of what the voice rants about: dead women and wanting to die, needing to kill male channelers, and not being able to trust Aes Sedai. The Taint isn't the only way to be insane. Beyond that, we don't know if Ishamael's healing was only temporary, or if the life-spanning personality disorder always produces insane voices. So there are plenty of ways for the LTT voice to be insane.

 

Another issue: past-life memories are extraordinarily rare. We only know of two cases in the history of the world with past-life memories: Rand and Birgitte. And Birgitte's are fading, and she didn't get them the same way Rand did. So Rand's case is extremely rare. Semirhage's explanation covers both the voice and the memories, and explains how the memories are so rare. I think the construct theory does a fine job of explaining the voice, if we take the memories for granted, but that's a huge hole. Early in the series we weren't sure just how rare past-life memories are, but now we know they're very rare.

 

I'm hoping for more hints about past-life memories in ToM. We've been told the true nature of the voice won't be revealed, but any information about the Black Tower could include someone else with the same disorder, which might be a clue for or against Semirhage's explanation.

[scott_swampy]

 

Another issue: past-life memories are extraordinarily rare. We only know of two cases in the history of the world with past-life memories: Rand and Birgitte. And Birgitte's are fading, and she didn't get them the same way Rand did. So Rand's case is extremely rare. Semirhage's explanation covers both the voice and the memories, and explains how the memories are so rare. I think the construct theory does a fine job of explaining the voice, if we take the memories for granted, but that's a huge hole. Early in the series we weren't sure just how rare past-life memories are, but now we know they're very rare.

 

I'm hoping for more hints about past-life memories in ToM. We've been told the true nature of the voice won't be revealed, but any information about the Black Tower could include someone else with the same disorder, which might be a clue for or against Semirhage's explanation.

Semirhage suggest that there were others. If Rand was the first how could she have known about them? And for that matter how could Graendal have tried to heal it? Or do you just mean that we don't know of any others?

 

And i doubt BWS will put any hint's into ToM or aMoL considering that RJ didn't want to reveal it. I can't see BWS going anywhere near it.

[Arkane101]

question: how do you know this voice in Rand's head is actually the real LTT's. Because Rand is going mad he may make up a personality himself and stick the name onto it and just believe it's LTT.

 

Because in several ocasions Rand said things, even intimate things, that only LTT would know. When he confronted Lanfear and Rahvin, when he battled Sammael, when he faced Semirhage, others. No way a sheepherder from Two Rivers would've know this details from wars in previous Age.

agreed and don't forget when Sammael send his messenger to Rand for a treaty. Rand calls out a list of crimes against the Forsaken no scholar would know. when they were battling the Shaido and sammael nuked the tower rand was on. he later falls off his horse and Rand says something about Sammael i think while Nateal (Asmo)is there and he reacts to it.

 

i always stood by that LTT was real and a past life.

 

so i look at this way. Rand became afficted with madness through the taint. instead of getting the " i see spiders " or becoming a child ones, he gets the past life memories one. and that is because the taint would create a madness, nothing could prevent that ( except joining the DO ).

 

and it is similar to what Thom calls possession. he tells Mat about the Old Blood and how a past life can take control of your body. what they called a form of insanity in the AoL, i am guessing. differant age, differant term as we have see numerous times. as we seen LTT took control of Rand's channeling during the attack on the mansion.

 

so being the Dragon Reborn mega taveren he is, the pattern gave him the past life memories one. the most useful and the one that could be cured, ie integration. Min sees the pattern in her visions. VoG is the one of Rand and another man entering the light and one emerging. it was meant to be, and LTT was real.

 

Ok by that logic, anything that Rand has not already got from LTT he would never know? That would make madness quite an advantage lol. Apart from the whole wanting to destroy the world thing.

[jemron]

This discussion frustrates me, because I have come to the realization that everyone interprets this differently, and few can agree on what Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head really is/was.  I've decided that I like my personal interpretation of it, whether I'm completely right or not, and I don't think it will ever be fully clarified, as BWS recently said in an interview that RJ's notes specifically say to leave this unanswered and ambiguous.

 

So, this is what I believe:

 

Lews Therin was real in the Age of Legends.  He may or may not have died sane, but that doesn't matter, as he was sane in T'A'R and he remembered his past lives just as Birgitte did/does.  When he was reborn as Rand, the "veil of forgetfulness" caused him to forget his past lives, but for some unknown reason, there was some seepage of real personality trates and memories into Rand's consciousness.  The "seepage" may be, but is unlikely, taint induced.  It may also be caused by the fact that the Pattern NEEDS Rand to remember things to survive.  The seepage may have occurred because Rand is a strong ta'veren, and that's what happens to them.  Or there may be another reason.  Whatever the reason, the memories and personality trates of Lews Therin that Rand has ARE REAL.  Or rather, they're memories of the real Lews Therin. 

 

In my mind, the voice is NOT a real person, but the voice itself is completely real to Rand.  The voice is a made up voice that Rand has assigned these trates and memories to, both because Rand IS/WAS going insane, AND because this was his way of coping with the stress of being the savior of the world and going mad.

 

Let me re-phrase this:  the voice of Lews Therin WAS real to Rand, and was probably very much like the real Lews Therin, but the voice was not a separate entity called Lews Therin.  Rand IS Lews Therin.  They are not two separate people.  The voice was Rand, pretending to be Lews Therin.

 

When Rand had his epiphany in VoG, he reintegrated with Lews Therin and all his other past lives (presumably), so now he no longer will "hear voices" but he will remember (hopefully) with clarity his life as the past people he once was.  He can now successfully be any of those people, but his personality is now that of Rand al'Thor, and he is no longer insane, IMO.

 

Again, the unknown here is, how did he gain those memories in the first place?  What caused it?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think, jermon, this is why RJ wanted it to be left unresolved  ;D

to frustrate people, surely, just like asmodeans killer, but also to allow the reader their own interpretation of the events and their significance. So i dont think either/or can be conclusively proved or disproved. There is evidence that suggests one way or another strongly, but no concrete eveidence, so really, there is no point arguing the exact point, its pointless, either we will find out conclusively in the next books, or it will be left for readers interpretation 

[Luckers]

Again, the unknown here is how did he gain those memories in the first place?  What caused it?

 

The Taint induced a normal form of madness in him--that madness being the manifestation of the personality, memories and voice of a past life.

[farthammer]

Is there any other case in the story where taint induced madness was gradual and progressive, besides Rand, rather than an abrupt meltdown which seems to have been common?  The main problem I have is that this began with actual useful past life information and memories, and this is where Rand builds his trust that it is a real voice.  It seems deliberate to me like drug dealer tactics.

[jemron]

Again, the unknown here is how did he gain those memories in the first place?  What caused it?

 

The Taint induced a normal form of madness in him--that madness being the manifestation of the personality, memories and voice of a past life.

 

There's nothing "normal" about that effect of madness.  So, are you suggesting that anybody who goes mad in the world of the wheel of time could/would have memories of past lives?  I thought it was argued in this same thread the Semi says it is a very rare occurrence, so how did she just happen to know that Rand was experiencing just that?

[farthammer]

The only non vague way to answer that question is she had specific knowledge of someone doing it to him deliberately.  Otherwise all you can say is it's just a mixture of 'taint', 'stress', and whatever else.  Or RJ wrote an entire fantasy series to demonstrate a love of mountain climbing and how it will change your life.

[Luckers]

Is there any other case in the story where taint induced madness was gradual and progressive, besides Rand, rather than an abrupt meltdown which seems to have been common?  The main problem I have is that this began with actual useful past life information and memories, and this is where Rand builds his trust that it is a real voice.  It seems deliberate to me like drug dealer tactics.

 

Yes. The length of the Breaking requires gradual procession in some of its victims.

 

Again, the unknown here is how did he gain those memories in the first place?  What caused it?

 

The Taint induced a normal form of madness in him--that madness being the manifestation of the personality, memories and voice of a past life.

 

There's nothing "normal" about that effect of madness.  So, are you suggesting that anybody who goes mad in the world of the wheel of time could/would have memories of past lives?  I thought it was argued in this same thread the Semi says it is a very rare occurrence, so how did she just happen to know that Rand was experiencing just that?

 

I'm sorry--does normal mean frequent to you? Would 'natural' work better for you? The point is that the Taint causes the manifestation of forms of insanity which occur naturally. Hearing a past life voice is one of those.

 

And she explains how she knew Rand had it--Lanfear told them of the validicy of his knowledge.

[farthammer]

Yes. The length of the Breaking requires gradual procession in some of its victims.

 

Is there an actual example or is this cited from somewhere, or is it opinion or what?

[FarShainMael]

Here in the real world, we consider 'hearing voices' to be a sign of madness because we know that such a thing is impossible. But in a world where it is possible (via technology, telepathy, or reincarnation), hearing voices is not mad at all, it's only natural.

 

(This is why I was rambling on earlier about madness being a complete disconnection from reality.)

 

[Luckers]

Yes. The length of the Breaking requires gradual procession in some of its victims.

 

Is there an actual example or is this cited from somewhere, or is it opinion or what?

 

The length of the breaking is well stated. Do you really think it would have lasted 300+ years if all the Aes Sedai went totally bonkers in the first five? Even with those who hid in steddings?

 

Here in the real world, we consider 'hearing voices' to be a sign of madness because we know that such a thing is impossible. But in a world where it is possible (via technology, telepathy, or reincarnation), hearing voices is not mad at all, it's only natural.

 

(This is why I was rambling on earlier about madness being a complete disconnection from reality.)

 

 

This is exactly the problem. The perception that it is not mad because it is real--irrespective of its genuine reality it detrimentally affects the psyche of the person that suffers it.

[farthammer]

Well I just want to know where that comes from, if it's not something RJ said or wrote, then that is a little different.  Anyway I think you misread my question.  I don't mean that everyone went instantly insane at the exact same time, but I get the impression that once any single male channeler starts to go nuts it's pretty abrupt.  Versus someone like Rand who appears to have had this drawn out progressive insanity.  I just wanted to know if RJ or BS or anyone ever answered or filled in any more details.

[FarShainMael]

This is exactly the problem. The perception that it is not mad because it is real--irrespective of its genuine reality it detrimentally affects the psyche of the person that suffers it.

 

Why should it, if such things are known to be real? When Rand takes Min's viewing about two people merging to be himself and another real person, he immediately feels relieved. (He's mistaken, but ATM that's not the point.)

 

Mat doesn't hear voices talking to him, but he gets vivid memories in stereo sound and 3D vision, which don't bother him because he knows where they came from - the 'finns.

 

(We don't know how Birgitte's memories of past lives manifest themselves, which is a pity.)

 

[Cirin]

I'm still not really sure where this debate is really going, or even what the debate is really about.  Comparing "real madness" (that Lews Therin is a real aspect of Rand's soul that is talking to him because of the Taint induced madness) to "construct" (the idea that Rand separated off the part of his soul that was Lews Therin, and hears his voice speaking to him because it's a construct of Rand's mind) isn't really a comparison that makes all that much sense to me.

 

The two men share the same soul - they are the same person.  Lews Therin is a part of that soul, but he's not a separate entity.  He is, at best, another facet of that souls personality that occasionally tries to manifest itself - sometimes by seizing sai'din, etc. but usually just in Rand's mind.  I don't see anyway that there could be a "real" Lews Therin talking to Rand that was "not" a construct of Rand's own mind, since Lews Therin and Rand are the same person.  If he is talking to Lews Therin, he is talking to himself.  The only way that Lews Therin's voice could be "real" and not be part of Rand's own mind is if it wasn't actually Lews Therin talking to Rand, but someone else pretending to be Lews Therin... and at this point I don't see that happening.  If we hear voices talking to us that aren't there, the voices come from our own heads.  The same is true in this case, except those voices are "real" in a sense, because they represent a past life that is part of the same soul, that has somehow become disassociated with the rest of the consciousness.

 

This disassociation likely began because of the Taint - the Taint started effecting Rand, and he created a separate identity in his head to deal with the fact that these memories of Lews Therin would occasionally surface in his head.  If I'm not mistaken, he has random memories start popping up in his head long before he hears Lews Therin's voice.  He often rejects these memories, insisting that he is Rand al'Thor, not Lews Therin, and I'm sure the Taint pushes him along.  Yes, the voice talking to him is Lews Therin (to a degree), because Lews Therin exists in his soul - but it is a construct only, because the only reason he hears Lews Therin's voice is because he has separated that part of his soul from the "Rand" part... not realizing that they are the same soul.  He's dividing himself, and this shows.  The farther along he goes, the more Lews Therin talks to him.  The more Lews Therin talks to him, the harder he finds it to channel sai'din.  He starts waffling back and forth between Rand and Lews Therin, seemingly one or the other, but never really both (not in the same way that Birgitte is Birgitte, for example).

 

That's how I tend to see it, anyway.  The voice is real because Rand made it real by separating Lews Therin from himself... so it's a "real madness construct."

[jemron]

I'm sorry--does normal mean frequent to you? Would 'natural' work better for you? The point is that the Taint causes the manifestation of forms of insanity which occur naturally. Hearing a past life voice is one of those.

 

And she explains how she knew Rand had it--Lanfear told them of the validicy of his knowledge.

 

Yeah, I guess I did interpret "normal" to mean "average" or "regularly."  Maybe not frequently.  Anyway, "natural" does fit better, and now I better understand your POV.

 

This makes sense to me, now that you remind me.  Lanfear knew of Rand's knowledge of Lews Therin, and communicated it to to Graendal and Semi and others.

[Ishmayl]

 

I want Rand to dream himself into a Forsaken meeting, seeing through Moridins eyes, and suddenly take control like "Lews" did to him...

 

"I'm coming for you! All of you!"

 

I would love a scene like that.  And would love to see the rest of the Forsakens' reactions to Morry after it happened.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Would have agreed with you before TGS, but that book makes it clear as day that the construct theory is the correct one.

 

You left out two significant pieces of evidence from TGS.  The first is when Min explains to Rand (and the reader) exactly what's going on, that Rand is only getting bits and pieces of knowledge from LTT.  The second is much more important, but I unfortunately can't track it down right now.  It's a line from Rand's internal monologue saying something to the effect of, "He used to think LTT represented a part of himself he couldn't accept."  It was a drop-dead, knock-down clue that it was a construct.

 

Your reliance on Semirhage's statements also seems misplaced, since her guesses don't need to be far-fetched at all.  First of all, it would likely be a quite common coping mechanism for someone receiving thoughts, impressions and abilities from a previous life to assign a second personality to them.  Second, Rand speaks to Lanfear directly using LTT's voice at one point ("And you loved power").  That instance, if not the speech itself, could have been conveyed to Semirhage and been the basis of her statement.  (That one statement is actually probably the strongest textual proof for the real theory.)

 

With TGS, the weight of the textual evidence is clearly in favor of the construct theory.

[draconian]

But I'm not entirely convinced that the voice was real. Recall that LTT was sane when he died, having been Healed by Ishydin. Therefore, the personality that 'awoke' in Rand's mind (if such it was) should likewise have been sane. Of course, that personality might itself have been affected by the taint..

ill aggree that LTT wasnt insane from the taint b/c he was healed of it but he was insane with grieve when he died or he wouldnt have killed himself. if he was still under the effects of the taint he wouldnt be of any use at all to rand.

[Mr Ares]

Would have agreed with you before TGS, but that book makes it clear as day that the construct theory is the correct one.

So you're saying that Brandon Sanderson is an idiot? Because BS stated that this was something that was supposed to be left unclear according to the notes, and that he wasn't going to clarify, so for him to state that after apparently making it so clear in the book is a little odd. TGS clears up less than you seem to think it does. Just because you interpret things one way (with plenty of quotes to back you up...) doesnt mean that way is correct. I was a "realist" before TGS, and that book has given me no reason to think that this is not still a viable viewpoint. Your arguments on the matter fall someway short of compelling. Clear as day? Clear as mud, more like.