Most infuriating moment in WoT.

[Silentvoice]

What moment made steam come out of your ears, and many puppies be destroyed by your vengeful might?

 

Here's mine:

(Dramatization)

 

Aviendha: hands Elayne a dagger and says (in short) "Darkfriends won't see you if you wield this"

 

Elayne: "I am constantly worried about darkfriends, and they always seem to be one step ahead of me. That said, I don't think this particular item will be that useful and so I am going to put it on a table and never reference it again"

 

Edit:(misspelled 'Aviendha')

[Tom Sawyer]

Mine is the scene in TGS where Gawyn and Bryne are talking about Morgase.  Gawyn still thinks Rand killed her and Bryne still thinks she scorned him and screwed up Andor.

 

"Gaebril was Rahvin".  How hard is it to say that sentence?  The context of their conversation about Morgase just had me pounding my head against the wall over how inane it was.

 

I don't know where they're going with this plotline, but I'm willing to bet that it will end up being unecessary filler that just turns out to be dumb.

 

 

Edit: We do not use that kind of language here.

[Silentvoice]

Mine is the scene in TGS where Gawyn and Bryne are talking about Morgase.  Gawyn still thinks Rand killed her and Bryne still thinks she scorned him and screwed up Andor.

 

"Gaebril was Rahvin".  How hard is it to say that sentence?  The context of their conversation about Morgase just had me pounding my head against the wall over how inane it was.

 

I don't know where they're going with this plotline, but I'm willing to bet that it will end up being unecessary filler that just turns out to be dumb.

 

 

 

 

The thing that upsets me about that plotline is that the foreshadowing seems to lean heavily towards Gawyn fostering a completely irrational hatred of Rand, even when all the evidence is paraded before him. Possibly even if/when he sees his mother.

 

He wouldn't even believe his most trusted mentor on the matter, the next step up from word of mouth is clear-cut evidence. It's not that much of a step up though. I see Gawyn going down an Aram style madness. Sucks for Egwene.

[jemron]

As much as I love the ending of the Dragon Reborn, it always really bothered me that Mat saved the super girls and they never really thanked him for it.  I mean, they did technically thank him, but I don't think they ever acknowledged just how much he did work to help save them.

 

That really ticked me off.  However, that probably IS how many women would react to something like that, so I guess it's not necessarily a "lame" scene, but just a frustrating scene because it's good writing/observation.

[Cirin]

As much as I love the ending of the Dragon Reborn, it always really bothered me that Mat saved the super girls and they never really thanked him for it.  I mean, they did technically thank him, but I don't think they ever acknowledged just how much he did work to help save them.

 

That really ticked me off.  However, that probably IS how many women would react to something like that, so I guess it's not necessarily a "lame" scene, but just a frustrating scene because it's good writing/observation.

 

This actually comes up in Crown of Swords.  Mat is talking to Birgitte while drinking about it, and she is rather upset to hear that they never thanked Mat for breaking into the Stone of Tear to rescue them, commenting that she doesn't know if she would have done that for anyone but Gaidal... and maybe not even then... then, she confronts the girls about it and tells them they have to apologize.  The girls protest, of course, saying that they could've handled the Black Ajah and that Be'lal wasn't really interested in them anyway, and Birgitte mentions that Mat never said anything about their being Black Ajah or Forsaken in there.  A really awesome moment to balance out the irritating one.  ;D

 

As for my most irritating scene - hmm... that's tough.  There are lots that are pretty irritating.  Gawyn's scenes are almost universally so - I know he's confused, but come on... I actually hope the theories of him having had a run in with Fain are true.  His hatred of Rand is so intense (I realize he thought Rand killed his mother, but despite numerous people he trusts and respects telling him it's not the case, he still believes the rumors.  He is going to go absolutely insane when he finds out Elayne is pregnant... and moreso when he finds out who did it) that I really don't see anyway of him getting out of the dive pattern if he doesn't do so REAL soon.

 

Any scene where you see people confident of information that you know is false, and they should at least THINK may be false is irritating though... like Elayne getting upset at the Whitecloak letter about her mother being with them.  "How dare they!  Mother is dead, everyone knows this!" ~rip~  You'd think it would have at least made her curious... but yeah, lots of scenes are infuriating, but in a way that keeps you reading.

[SuperFade]

No specific moment, but a certain recurring plot element:

 

1.Supergirls get an idea.

2.Supergirls decide to act on said idea despite advice not to from people who are far more learned than they are.

3. Supergirls pick up male traveling companions. Said companions are usually left out of the loop, mistreated and ridiculed despite posessing an assortment of skills that would be genuinely helpful.

4. Supergirls inevitably screw up, and at least one is captured.

5. Supergirls are rescued, they achieve their objective anyway, often with the help of their traveling companions.

6. Supergirls congratulate themselves on their success, despite the fact that they would be screwed if they hadn't had help.

7. Rinse and repeat every few books.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

 

The thing that upsets me about that plotline is that the foreshadowing seems to lean heavily towards Gawyn fostering a completely irrational hatred of Rand, even when all the evidence is paraded before him. Possibly even if/when he sees his mother.

 

He wouldn't even believe his most trusted mentor on the matter, the next step up from word of mouth is clear-cut evidence. It's not that much of a step up though. I see Gawyn going down an Aram style madness. Sucks for Egwene.

 

I think it's the irrelevance of it that annoys me the most.  The Morgase plotline hasn't gone anywhere and just seems pointless and Gawyn was out of the story for seven books and then suddenly comes back and is still seven books behind in the story.  There's clearly something being built up to here, but looking at the basis of how it's being built, I can't see how it'll be anything other than a lame waste of time.

[Rootbeer]

Mine is the scene in TGS where Gawyn and Bryne are talking about Morgase.  Gawyn still thinks Rand killed her and Bryne still thinks she scorned him and screwed up Andor.

 

"Gaebril was Rahvin".  How is it to say that sentence?  The context of their conversation about Morgase just had me pounding my head against the wall over how inane it was.

 

I don't know where they're going with this plotline, but I'm willing to bet that it will end up being unecessary filler that just turns out to be dumb.

 

 

Did Bryne know Gaebril was Rahvin?

I don't think so, but I personally never pay too much attention to his scenes other than the basic read once and move on.

 

The most infuriating moment for me, in the WoT series, is the lack of action from Rand regarding Taim and the Black Tower, aka one of the strongest weapons(if not the strongest army) on the side of the Light.

In my opinion, all he has to do is take a little time and open a portal to check on the Black Tower! It's not that hard! But there's always "no time".

Pssh. He still has time to plow Min though.

Rand should have nip the bud a long time ago.

I feel there's no need to drag this problem out and allow it to escalate to such a threat, but I suppose it was required.

 

Oh, Min infuriate me too. Her viewings are useful in a way, but she gets really aggravating when she thinks she knows everything and tries to stop them. Such cases include Logain's and Alivia's.

Also, she seems to think of herself as the all powerful protector of the Dragon Reborn. She's almost arrogant about it. I'm so glad that she finally got put in her place in TGS.

 

[jemron]

This actually comes up in Crown of Swords.  Mat is talking to Birgitte while drinking about it, and she is rather upset to hear that they never thanked Mat for breaking into the Stone of Tear to rescue them, commenting that she doesn't know if she would have done that for anyone but Gaidal... and maybe not even then... then, she confronts the girls about it and tells them they have to apologize.  The girls protest, of course, saying that they could've handled the Black Ajah and that Be'lal wasn't really interested in them anyway, and Birgitte mentions that Mat never said anything about their being Black Ajah or Forsaken in there.  A really awesome moment to balance out the irritating one.  ;D

 

Oh yeah!  Thanks for the reminder.  Mat rules!  Supergirls drool!  :P

[MikeRiley]

Mine is the scene in TGS where Gawyn and Bryne are talking about Morgase.  Gawyn still thinks Rand killed her and Bryne still thinks she scorned him and screwed up Andor.

 

"Gaebril was Rahvin".  How fucking hard is it to say that sentence?  The context of their conversation about Morgase just had me pounding my head against the wall over how inane it was.

 

I don't know where they're going with this plotline, but I'm willing to bet that it will end up being unecessary filler that just turns out to be dumb.

 

 

 

 

The thing that upsets me about that plotline is that the foreshadowing seems to lean heavily towards Gawyn fostering a completely irrational hatred of Rand, even when all the evidence is paraded before him. Possibly even if/when he sees his mother.

 

He wouldn't even believe his most trusted mentor on the matter, the next step up from word of mouth is clear-cut evidence. It's not that much of a step up though. I see Gawyn going down an Aram style madness. Sucks for Egwene.

 

 

It's not really evidence. Everybody who told him Rand didn't do it was involved deeply with Rand. They aren't exactly reliable sources of information when you're about to go on a manhunt. Even so, Gawyn isn't going after Rand, he's with Egwene now and has shown restraint, so it won't matter much. He can believe what he wants, and to be honest, I'd probably believe it too if I was him.

 

Same for Bryne. Why should it matter that Morgase was under the influence of one of the forsaken? He doesn't know what channelers are capable of doing. What he does know is how Morgase herself treated him.

 

They make do with the information they have, and the source of that information does matter. Considering the events leading to Morgase's "death", it's not a big step to saying Rand did it. We, as readers, know Gawyn is wrong but Gawyn has not had real access to any information and has been pretty much kept isolated since leaving Cairhien. He has a mother's murder to avenge, he can be a bit messed up.

 

 

Anyway, there's 3 big points in the book that bugged me (plus a lot of minor Elaida moments). They are:

 

-Egeanin's attitude about the conquered people at Falme and really believing she was above everybody in The Great Hunt.

 

-Perrin killing the Aiel that was helping Faile. It always felt like murder to me, even though it wasn't.

 

-Newer, the scene between Rand and Hurin. That guy just about worshiped Rand and was treated like dirt. It was even worse than his long-awaited reunion with Tam.

[Silentvoice]

No specific moment, but a certain recurring plot element:

 

1.Supergirls get an idea.

2.Supergirls decide to act on said idea despite advice not to from people who are far more learned than they are.

3. Supergirls pick up male traveling companions. Said companions are usually left out of the loop, mistreated and ridiculed despite posessing an assortment of skills that would be genuinely helpful.

4. Supergirls inevitably screw up, and at least one is captured.

5. Supergirls are rescued, they achieve their objective anyway, often with the help of their traveling companions.

6. Supergirls congratulate themselves on their success, despite the fact that they would be screwed if they hadn't had help.

7. Rinse and repeat every few books.

 

I expect this will come up a lot in this thread. I have a lot of female friends who I've introduced to this series, but they absolutely hated it because of the way it portrays almost all women as being vindictive bullies who must be in charge at all times.

 

This is something that I didn't notice until it was pointed out to me(as in I noticed the behavior, but never made the connection to the fact that it was only ever women who exhibited it). Now I tolerate it because I think it will have an important role near the end of the series, the tear between the sexes is a source of contention which is antithetical to their building a peaceful utopia society again.

 

 

[Tom Sawyer]

 

Did Bryne know Gaebril was Rahvin?

I don't think so, but I personally never pay too much attention to his scenes other than the basic read once and move on.

 

No, he didn't.  He thought that Morgase had scorned him and messed up her rule of Andor after going head over heels for that fop Gaebril.  In the middle of an army of Aes Sedai at the time leading up to the Last Battle, nobody ever thought to mention the Forsaken to their general.  In a group of deft political manipulators, no one ever thought to talk to a high ranking Andoran about the people involved in one of the major countries that the Dragon Reborn rules and have that little tidbit come up in a conversation.

 

It's just kind of silly.

[Cirin]

To be fair, not that many people know that Gaebril was Rahvin.  I don't even think that Morgase knows, although it's possible that someone told her recently.  Rand kept that little secret pretty close to his chest, especially since he felt really bad about it, knowing that Rahvin was there (I think Asmodean told him) but not acting soon enough to save Morgase.  I'm not even sure that Mat and Aviendha know, and they got blasted by him... although the people with him in the assault may have known he was Rahvin, I don't remember.  I'll have to look it up again.

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, Egwene knows.  Did she not pass that on?  Did her and all her little Aes Sedai friends never once talk about either the Forsaken nor Andor?

 

I mean, what's next?  Is she going to have a conversation with the king of Illian about Rand taking over that country and not mention to him that Lord Brend was Sammael?  I hope not, because that would be stupid.

[Rootbeer]

 

Did Bryne know Gaebril was Rahvin?

I don't think so, but I personally never pay too much attention to his scenes other than the basic read once and move on.

 

No, he didn't.  He thought that Morgase had scorned him and messed up her rule of Andor after going head over heels for that fop Gaebril.  In the middle of an army of Aes Sedai at the time leading up to the Last Battle, nobody ever thought to mention the Forsaken to their general.  In a group of deft political manipulators, no one ever thought to talk to a high ranking Andoran about the people involved in one of the major countries that the Dragon Reborn rules and have that little tidbit come up in a conversation.

 

It's just kind of silly.

AS are masters of secrecy.

Throughout the story, it has been maintained that they would only reveal what you need to know, and keep everything else piled up in their heads. So I'm not surprised that they decided not to tell Bryne of Gaebril's true identity. He is only there to command their soldiers.

 

Besides, if Bryne ever found out that Morgase, and all her past actions towards him were due to the manipulation of a forsaken, one right under his nose and he failed to noticed may I add, then there's no telling he would do.

In fact, oath or no oath, there was a chance that he would abandon the AS and run back to Andor instead of helping them take back TV.

 

Well, that's done with now. I guess Bryne will enjoy the rest of his life as a Warder.

[DemandredFO]

There's an excuse for Bryne since he could only believes his eyes but Gawyn was told by a peddler that he heard Rand killed Morgase.  Unless that peddler was Fain Gawyn should know better, he was supposed be the First Prince of the Sword.  Unless the peddler was Fain, a Foresaken or BA, there is no reason for Galad to irrationnaly believe one source.  Now that I think of it his hatred of Rand reminds me of Dain Bornholt's for Perrin so maybe it was Fain.

[Silentvoice]

 

It's not really evidence. Everybody who told him Rand didn't do it was involved deeply with Rand. They aren't exactly reliable sources of information when you're about to go on a manhunt. Even so, Gawyn isn't going after Rand, he's with Egwene now and has shown restraint, so it won't matter much. He can believe what he wants, and to be honest, I'd probably believe it too if I was him.

 

Same for Bryne. Why should it matter that Morgase was under the influence of one of the forsaken? He doesn't know what channelers are capable of doing. What he does know is how Morgase herself treated him.

 

They make do with the information they have, and the source of that information does matter. Considering the events leading to Morgase's "death", it's not a big step to saying Rand did it. We, as readers, know Gawyn is wrong but Gawyn has not had real access to any information and has been pretty much kept isolated since leaving Cairhien. He has a mother's murder to avenge, he can be a bit messed up.

 

 

 

 

There's understanding that some information may be imperfect, and then there's Gawyn's behavior. I think he's acting entirely irrationally; take his POV when Bryne was talking to him, for instance.

 

Unfortunately I can't remember the name of the chapter, so I can't quote it directly, but it went a little something like this.

 

 

Gawyn: "Rand killed Morgase"

Bryne: "No he didn't, he saved her kingdom"

 

 

Gawyn's very first thought wasn't to consider what his trusted mentor said, but to instead think him a traitor.

 

 

Now it would be legitimate for Gawyn to not believe Bryne, but his reactions aren't simply disbelief, they are outright dismissal. As if the only thing he heard Bryne say was "I'm a traitor." Couple this with the fact that he WAS willing to accept tenuous word-of-mouth evidence AGAINST Rand (via rumors that he would piece together himself to get the final picture) and I think we've got somebody on the verge of losing sanity. The fact that he's torn between vengeance and love of Egwene won't help matters.

 

I've never read the theory that he came into contact with Fain, but that's an interesting idea.

 

[Cirin]

Well, Egwene knows.  Did she not pass that on?  Did her and all her little Aes Sedai friends never once talk about either the Forsaken nor Andor?

 

I mean, what's next?  Is she going to have a conversation with the king of Illian about Rand taking over that country and not mention to him that Lord Brend was Sammael?  I hope not, because that would be stupid.

 

Well, Egwene did talk to Gawyn in Lord of Chaos, told him that Rand did not kill Morgase, made him swear an oath not to harm Rand until she could prove it... and said not a word to him about Gaebril being Rahvin.  Either she didn't know at the time, or she decided it wasn't all that important a detail.

 

Actually, I just read the account of Gawyn meeting the peddler again, and although he doesn't really sound at all like Fain (they don't describe him as looking like Fain, anyway).  He does just randomly find Gawyn and his men, talk about how the Aiel have good gold and don't bother peddlers (making Gawyn wonder why he wasn't heading south, then?), and then brings up Caemlyn and Morgase being killed by Rand... so it's possible it was an intentional meeting... although not necessarily, since Gawyn's hatred of Rand is definitely there, but not quite so passionate as it is in tGS.

[Silentvoice]

Well, Egwene knows.  Did she not pass that on?  Did her and all her little Aes Sedai friends never once talk about either the Forsaken nor Andor?

 

I mean, what's next?  Is she going to have a conversation with the king of Illian about Rand taking over that country and not mention to him that Lord Brend was Sammael?  I hope not, because that would be stupid.

 

Well, Egwene did talk to Gawyn in Lord of Chaos, told him that Rand did not kill Morgase, made him swear an oath not to harm Rand until she could prove it... and said not a word to him about Gaebril being Rahvin.  Either she didn't know at the time, or she decided it wasn't all that important a detail.

 

Actually, I just read the account of Gawyn meeting the peddler again, and although he doesn't really sound at all like Fain (they don't describe him as looking like Fain, anyway).  He does just randomly find Gawyn and his men, talk about how the Aiel have good gold and don't bother peddlers (making Gawyn wonder why he wasn't heading south, then?), and then brings up Caemlyn and Morgase being killed by Rand... so it's possible it was an intentional meeting... although not necessarily, since Gawyn's hatred of Rand is definitely there, but not quite so passionate as it is in tGS.

 

If Gawyn met Fain, I don't think he would have deliberately affected Gawyn in this way. Fain has a very personal need to kill Rand by himself, anybody else who has the same goal is just in his way.

 

However, Gawyn's behavior is very reminiscent of Mat's when he just started to feel the ruby hilted dagger's influence. Proximity could have had that effect maybe.

[Hadilmir]

I expect this will come up a lot in this thread. I have a lot of female friends who I've introduced to this series, but they absolutely hated it because of the way it portrays almost all women as being vindictive bullies who must be in charge at all times.

WoT shows what society would be like if feminists won, and given that men destroyed most of the known world, they did. From the few feminists I know, it's quite accurate.

 

 

Also, where's this Gawyn insanity coming from? A man who can channel is like a rabid dog with a WMD in their society. Not only that, he is the Kinslayer reborn. Then Gawyn hears rumors of Rand's exploits in Tear and Cairhien. To make things worse, Rand brought the Aiel across the Dragonwall again and the only Aiel Gawyn has ran into are the Shaido, so he must assume they are all like that. I'd say Rand killing Morgase is a pretty believable rumor at this point.

 

That's like seeing someone that you know hates your neighbor walk into their house and then hearing that your neighbor is dead just a few hours later. Actually, throw in that the 'someone' had a baseball bat with them when they went into the house and your neighbor was beaten to death. That's much closer. I wouldn't trust twenty friends of the 'someone' if they said it wasn't him.

[Silentvoice]

I expect this will come up a lot in this thread. I have a lot of female friends who I've introduced to this series, but they absolutely hated it because of the way it portrays almost all women as being vindictive bullies who must be in charge at all times.

WoT shows what society would be like if feminists won, and given that men destroyed most of the known world, they did. From the few feminists I know, it's quite accurate.

 

 

Also, where's this Gawyn insanity coming from? A man who can channel is like a rabid dog with a WMD in their society. Not only that, he is the Kinslayer reborn. Then Gawyn hears rumors of Rand's exploits in Tear and Cairhien. To make things worse, Rand brought the Aiel across the Dragonwall again and the only Aiel Gawyn has ran into are the Shaido, so he must assume they are all like that. I'd say Rand killing Morgase is a pretty believable rumor at this point.

 

That's like seeing someone that you know hates your neighbor walk into their house and then hearing that your neighbor is dead just a few hours later. Actually, throw in that the 'someone' had a baseball bat with them when they went into the house and your neighbor was beaten to death. That's much closer. I wouldn't trust twenty friends of the 'someone' if they said it wasn't him.

 

 

I'm not doubting the plausibility of Gawyn's belief. I'm talking more about his behavior during his POVs. He demonstrates a severe lack of trust that reminds me a lot of Mat when he had the dagger.

 

I don't think he's insane yet, but he's torn between two extremes. It's a possibility that I won't ignore. He's at his worst when thinking about Rand.

 

EDIT: Worse or Worst? hmmm...

[Hadilmir]

I'm not doubting the plausibility of Gawyn's belief. I'm talking more about his behavior during his POVs. He demonstrates a severe lack of trust that reminds me a lot of Mat when he had the dagger.

 

I don't think he's insane yet, but he's torn between two extremes. It's a possibility that I won't ignore. He's at his worst when thinking about Rand.

 

EDIT: Worse or Worst? hmmm...

Ohh, the second half wasn't meant for you, it was meant for the people thinking Gawyn is insane. I agree with your apparent views of Gawyn even though I think he has a reasonable excuse. ;)

[MikeRiley]

The peddler Gawyn spoke to wasn't Fain. Somebody asked Robert Jordan and he said no, sometimes people are just what they appear to be.

[Durinax]

most infuriatign moment, i would have to say any time when egwene demands all the information from a person while giving none, or when she bullies or browbeats someone into line and later condemns elaida for being a tyrant

[Ala Rubra]

Well, Egwene did talk to Gawyn in Lord of Chaos, told him that Rand did not kill Morgase, made him swear an oath not to harm Rand until she could prove it... and said not a word to him about Gaebril being Rahvin.  Either she didn't know at the time, or she decided it wasn't all that important a detail.

 

Unless Egwene got some kind of trauma-induced amnesia from Lanfear's attack, there is no way that she could NOT know. IIRC, she volunteered to go with Rand to take out Rahvin after he got the news about Morgase from Mat.