The Amyrlin's Anger

[Durinax]

 

I'd say that is a good reason why he needs all the help he can get. Egwene is, after all, still sane.

Rand is sane now. And probably 400 years old too. (Assuming he remembers the rest of being LTT)

 

No, he doesn't. If he did, he would have been crushed to death.

He very nearly was.

 

Min has it right. He doesn't need guidance or handling, he needs advice and help. Unfortunately, she is the only one who seems to realise this.

 

 

Exactly, thats why he needs Moiraine back, Egwene doesnt understand this, neither do the rest of the AS, excepting possibly Nynaeve and Cadsuane now

 

cadsuane didnt learn a thing through this experience other than that you dont f*ck with tam

[draconian]

I guess I don't know what you mean because Rand has had a number of mentors, even if it was a strange collection of them, from Asmodean to Cadsuane.

egwene has had mentors she can trust but name a single person rand had who he could trust who acted like a mentor besides tom b/c he effectively doesnt count thanks to morraine.

[farthammer]

Lan, Rhuarc, Moiraine, Thom (I don't know why he wouldn't count), Asmodean, Bashere

[Durinax]

Lan, Rhuarc, Moiraine, Thom (I don't know why he wouldn't count), Asmodean, Bashere

only thom and Rhuarc know how to lead a country, Bashere is just a general whom gives rand advice when it comes to tactics.

 

Plus learning to drive while going down the highway would suck so to speak, whereas egwene has had training long before she had to lead

[farthammer]

Ok now you are just making stuff up.

[azrael.1289]

Lol...Why are we comparing Rand and Egwene like that?

Rand needs someone to mentor him to be the DRAGON while Egwene a mere AS then Amrylin. Nynaeve, WO, Siuan all fit that role so perfectly for Egwene, Rand had to contend with advice from a voice in his head. If you can't see that difference, you are making stuff up.

Remember being Dragon isn't just about politics and manipulations like it is for Amrylin, he actually has to do something about the actual evil....the GLoD you know.

[draconian]

Lan, Rhuarc, Moiraine, Thom (I don't know why he wouldn't count), Asmodean, Bashere

only thom and Rhuarc know how to lead a country, Bashere is just a general whom gives rand advice when it comes to tactics.

 

Plus learning to drive while going down the highway would suck so to speak, whereas egwene has had training long before she had to lead

I did say TRUST didnt i? not trust not to put a knife in his back.

rand didnt fully trust moiraine till she died.

 

thom only got a few weeks to teach rand before moiraine sent him away b/c she want rand to rely on her and not thom. a few weeks isnt real mentoring.

 

lan taught him the sword but very little of tactics and war and so long as he is bonded to moiraine or any1 his loyality was in question.

 

rand cant completely trust rhuarc or any of the clan chiefs to the fullest b/c of the wise ones.

 

bashere isnt a mentor but acts like a proper adviser to rand and rarely as a mentor. i think rand's trust in bashee isnt complete b/c of a viewing.

 

rand never trust asmodean in any real sense of the word.

 

i can give examples these but that easy ennough if u think back to rand POVs in the 1st 6 books.

[DemandredFO]

As another poster said Rand had on the job training and also had to deal with matters that white tower should have dealt with, uniting the nations; just so happens to that he was functually insane since book 6 or 7.  Egwene meantime observed Moiraine, had some training in the WT, trained under the WO, all before she became amarlyn and the most she had to deal with was keeping her lies straight.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The problem here is that both have done well in what they have had to face. Rand being hardcore, while it was bad in the long run, didnt really affect his ability to rule, in fact, he did do some pretty good things in tGS being cuendillar, its just he cant keep on that way till TG. We  may not like his actions beacuse they were "evil" so to speak, but they were intelligent.

 

As for Egwene, she did well at reuniting the Tower, like Rand she had her faults and strengths and overall is not a bad leader.

 

But she doesnt have the ability, nor do any of the AS, WO, Windfinders or Seanchan, to guide Rand. They all have different loyalties, they want to see the world whole, the AS/WO/Seanchan positions as secure as they can be, however, that is something for after TG, Rand is the only one that can actually win it.

 

So both of them have faults, and one is no more capable than the other, what they need is to work together, not try to control each other, or guide each other, they need to stop and collaborate, as EQUALS

 

Egwene has her inspiration skills and the skills of the WT. Rand has LTT knowledge of the Power, the seals, and his own knowledge and determination, both are admirable, but to win, like working with the power, saidar and saidin, Egwene and Rand, work in harmony to achieve the best results.

[DemandredFO]

Rand already did that a few times(cleansing anyone) and also his camp has AM and AS bonded and so far that seems to be working well.  I have yet to see that Egwene can Cooperate or even knows the meaning of the word.  If Rand calls her little sister like he did Moraine I forget where, that'll really send her over the edge.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Rand already did that a few times(cleansing anyone) and also his camp has AM and AS bonded and so far that seems to be working well.  I have yet to see that Egwene can Cooperate or even knows the meaning of the word.  If Rand calls her little sister like he did Moraine I forget where, that'll really send her over the edge.

 

That is the whole point of my topic, Rand seems (at least post VoG) to be willing to work with AS, but doesnt trust them after all they did and because, even Egwene, STILL thinks to control him

Therefore, the whole thing about the "Amyrlin's Anger" while not very clear, bugs me, because i have a feeling (as it has been through most of the series) the women (Egwene) always get what they want. And for her to subdue Rand, it would just be a copout.

 

Thats the difference between Rand and Egwene, he just wants them to work together to win TG, she wants to tell him how to do it. In this, he is right, no matter how qualified anyone is, they need to work together.

 

Its like in football, a Center Back trying to tell a Striker how to play their position. Neither of them know better than the other how to play their positions, but together, the team works

[DemandredFO]

I think Rand already set on the path to changing and I don't see Rand submitting to Egwene.

[draconian]

If Rand calls her little sister like he did Moraine I forget where, that'll really send her over the edge.

book 5 durring the 1st 5 chapters right after the darkhound attack.

[Durinax]

I think the main thing is Rand's willingness to work with the AS close to unconditionally when he needs to do great feats, but the AS demand absolute control when they work with men which is just wrong.

 

Egwene holds the AS stereotypes too hard, they do not know all, they cannot have absolute control, and whats the difference between men bonding women and women bonding men. plus she is egotistical, not to the same extent as elaida, but she is arrogent and conceted because she acts as if she knows everything when she's 20ish (I believe modern society is suffering from this) when she actually knows very little, and will be whinning and complaining once she actually has to run a city and the AS

[azrael.1289]

Egwene holds the AS stereotypes too hard, they do not know all, they cannot have absolute control.

Some AS from AoL needs to explain to them the meaning of Aes Sedai. They seem to have forgotten it.

[draconian]

So both of them have faults, and one is no more capable than the other, what they need is to work together, not try to control each other, or guide each other, they need to stop and collaborate, as EQUALS

 

Egwene has her inspiration skills and the skills of the WT. Rand has LTT knowledge of the Power, the seals, and his own knowledge and determination, both are admirable, but to win, like working with the power, saidar and saidin, Egwene and Rand, work in harmony to achieve the best results.

i have no issues with rand and egwene treating each other as equals but in any battle or war there must a leader who is at the top of the chain of command. its either that or its by comitte and then every1 wants a chair. if the WT gets a chair then the seanchan will want 1 then andor etc

 

rand has plenty of women able to use saidar who r not part of the white tower so that isnt the reason why he would want the white towers aid. the reason is far simpler: rand cant win asgainst the DO by brute force but shadowspawn darkfriends and the the forsaken are a different story.

[farthammer]

Lol...Why are we comparing Rand and Egwene like that?

Rand needs someone to mentor him to be the DRAGON while Egwene a mere AS then Amrylin. Nynaeve, WO, Siuan all fit that role so perfectly for Egwene, Rand had to contend with advice from a voice in his head. If you can't see that difference, you are making stuff up.

Remember being Dragon isn't just about politics and manipulations like it is for Amrylin, he actually has to do something about the actual evil....the GLoD you know.

 

Someone tried to make the point that Egwene has had help along the way to her path to being Amyrlin.  Rand has also had plenty of help in a wide variety of things, but now everyone keeps moving the goalposts over things he had no help with.  Rand's insanity does not totally excuse him of responsibility for the choices he has made.  This is going to be my last post in this thread because Rand GOOD Egwene BAD is just getting a little boring.

[draconian]

Someone tried to make the point that Egwene has had help along the way to her path to being Amyrlin.  Rand has also had plenty of help in a wide variety of things, but now everyone keeps moving the goalposts over things he had no help with.  Rand's insanity does not totally excuse him of responsibility for the choices he has made.  This is going to be my last post in this thread because Rand GOOD Egwene BAD is just getting a little boring.

its not about good or bad. think of it this way egwene has by my count atleast 4 ppl that she has absolute trust in and can tell her plans to and get advise back. even when she is trapped in the WT she has 2 or more ppl who she can talk to. who does rand have who he can trust absolutely for the past 8 books? LTT and maybe min eventhough she went behind his back. too many ppl go behide his back.

[azrael.1289]

Someone tried to make the point that Egwene has had help along the way to her path to being Amyrlin.  Rand has also had plenty of help in a wide variety of things, but now everyone keeps moving the goalposts over things he had no help with.  

The fact that the goalposts can be moved is the point we are trying to make  :-[

 

Rand's insanity does not totally excuse him of responsibility for the choices he has made.

Which bad choices of Rand are we talking about here.

 

This is going to be my last post in this thread because Rand GOOD Egwene BAD is just getting a little boring.

No one's forcing you to post. You can quit any time you like. After all this is a thread concerning Rand and Egwene. So it's only natural some people don't think the way you do.

 

[Hadilmir]

Rand has isolated himself from just about every person in a position of power. No one trusts him, no one respects him, no one even seems to understand him in the least. That has been his only major mistake that I picked up on. Just about any Aes Sedai could be more diplomatic than Rand, that is the guidance he needed when she last saw him. I don't think he still needs guidance because I know what he's been up to, but Egwene hasn't seen him in what, six books?

 

You keep saying Egwene is inexperienced, we get that, but that isn't important. In "In the White Tower", Egwene mentioned sending an embassy led by a Grey, not herself. Key words: not herself. Look at Meidani's experience alone, that could be useful to Rand, yet you guys immediately call shenanigans because you don't like Egwene.

 

No one's forcing you to post. You can quit any time you like. After all this is a thread concerning Rand and Egwene. So it's only natural some people don't think the way you do.

He knows he can quit anytime he wants because, guess what, he did. Throwing one last jab at him was quite unnecessary.

[azrael.1289]

You keep saying Egwene is inexperienced, we get that, but that isn't important. In "In the White Tower", Egwene mentioned sending an embassy led by a Grey, not herself. Key words: not herself. Look at Meidani's experience alone, that could be useful to Rand, yet you guys immediately call shenanigans because you don't like Egwene.

The time for diplomacy is almost over. That would have been mostly useful somewhere in the books 4-8. TG is too near for any political sway the WT may hold to be too important now. What Rand needs now is help in dealing with DO. Besides I think it would actually be better if Egwene herself goes if all she intends is for AS to help him. Rand trusts her more than a random AS irrespective of their Ajah.

And seriously

The Dragon Reborn should not have been left to run free, but since when has the White Tower been in the business of kidnappingand forcing people to our will? Are we not known as the most subtle and careful of all people? Do we not pride ourselves on being able to make others do as they should, all the while letting them think it was their  idea?

That's a quote from the same chapter you mentioned. She's actually proud that AS are conniving schemers and good manipulators. Infact the whole conversation starts IIRC when she is asked how she would "control" Rand. She then goes on to talk about how she would "manage" the Dragon. I rest my case.

 

He knows he can quit anytime he wants because, guess what, he did. Throwing one last jab at him was quite unnecessary.

Why would he get frustrated we are arguing our case? Does he expect everyone to have his opinion?

And please don't take the moral high ground. You could have gone without taking that jab at me either. Everyone's the same  ::)

[DemandredFO]

You still need diplomacy because Andor is free, Cairhein is basically free, Tear is free, I don't know about Illian, Arad Doman or some of those other countries.  Everyone should been for fighting the Nazi's in WWII but you still needed diplomats.  This war won't take 5 years but you still need diplomats.  Thing is Rand has AS that he can mostly trust but the white Tower will more than likely do what they tried in Andor, basically incite a rebellion.  They wouldn't have called it that but that's basically what it was.

[Hadilmir]

The time for diplomacy is over. That would have been useful somewhere in the books 4-8. TG is too near for any political sway the WT may hold to be important now. What Rand needs now is help in dealing with DO.

Does Egwene know that? Nope, try reading my first paragraph again closely. Also, Rand barely has half of what he should control, there is still time for diplomacy.

 

And seriously. That's the same quote from the chapter you mentioned. She's actually proud that AS are conniving schemers and good manipulators. I rest my case.

In the same chapter, Egwene says Rand cannot be controlled, he must be guided. Don't confuse the two. You twisted her way of saying 'subtlety > leash' and took what you wanted out of it. Just last page you said that Rand had no good teachers, are you saying he should refuse someone of the Grey Ajah? Someone experienced in what he so obviously lacks? Leave the Last Battle out of it and think about how much smoother things might have gone if Rand had any diplomatic skill (beyond ta'verenism). Near the end we see him start to use Aes Sedai as diplomats and it works, this is not an arguable point. (Except the bloody Sea Folk, I can't stand them and I can't stand the Aes Sedai reaction to them) If there's any fault in Egwene's plan it is that she is not looking towards TG when dealing with Rand and hasn't seen the changes he's gone through.

 

Why would he get frustrated we are arguing our case? Does he expect everyone to have his opinion?

And please don't take the moral high ground. You could have gone without taking that jab at me either. Everyone's the same  ::)

No, but your argument doesn't change and neither does mine. We're at a stalemate because both sides feel they're right, farthammer saw that and left. He did not jab at you, but I'm too much an eye for an eye person to let that slide.  ;)

 

*Demandred, are you think of Cairhien or did I miss something?  :-\

[azrael.1289]

Does Egwene know that? Nope, try reading my first paragraph again closely. Also, Rand barely has half of what he should control, there is still time for diplomacy.

My point exactly. Neither Egwene nor WT know everything. So, they should stop thinking like they do.

 

In the same chapter, Egwene says Rand cannot be controlled, he must be guided. Don't confuse the two. You twisted her way of saying 'subtlety > leash' and took what you wanted out of it. Just last page you said that Rand had no good teachers, are you saying he should refuse someone of the Grey Ajah? Someone experienced in what he so obviously lacks? Leave the Last Battle out of it and think about how much smoother things might have gone if Rand had any diplomatic skill (beyond ta'verenism). If there's any fault in Egwene's plan it is that she is not looking towards TG when dealing with Rand and hasn't seen the changes he's gone through.

You can't. That's is my point. No one except Rand seems to realize TG is maybe a few weeks away. Everyone can continue thinking about themselves after TG. They need to realize there won't be an "after TG" if Rand fails.

 

Near the end we see him start to use Aes Sedai as diplomats and it works, this is not an arguable point. (Except the bloody Sea Folk, I can't stand them and I can't stand the Aes Sedai reaction to them)

See, he+AS working together works well....AS using him doesn't. That's supposed to be my argument :'(

 

No, but your argument doesn't change and neither does mine. We're at a stalemate because both sides feel they're right, farthammer saw that and left. He did not jab at you, but I'm too much an eye for an eye person to let that slide.  ;)

He could have left without making the comment about our argument boring him. Being an "eye to eye" person myself, I just couldn't resist :P

[Mr Ares]

I'd say that is a good reason why he needs all the help he can get. Egwene is, after all, still sane.

Absolutely. He can use all the help he can get. Problem is no one is offering.

Cadsuane, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Min, right, no help there. Egwene's been tied up, but might be able to offer some now.

 

No, he doesn't. If he did, he would have been crushed to death.

Unless he is also Atlas reborn.

Atlas was standing on the world, supporting the heavens on his shoulders.

 

That's a quote from the same chapter you mentioned. She's actually proud that AS are conniving schemers and good manipulators.

Wouldn't you be? It's a decent skill to have. In fact, I don't see anything bad in what she said. Trying to shove the Dragon in a certain direction is bad? Well, we've seen how that doesn't work, so good point. Make him do what he should? Well, surely you want him to be doing what he should be doing? How is that not a good thing? As for making him think it was his own idea, what's wrong with that? Essentially it boils down to "We shouldn't nag Rand into doing what he should be doing." It looks less like you have a problem with what Egwene said and more like a problem with how she said it, in this instance at least.