The Amyrlin's Anger

[yoniy0]

Agreeed.

BTW, it would seem that I was partially mistaken. While sisters have stopped transferring Bonds long enough ago that no sister now living remembers that (implying they didn't Bond men against their wishes as well), Cadsuane did say she might've considered doing what Alanna did. See here:

"So. Not a pet but a parcel. Myrelle is to be a - a caretaker! Moiraine, not even the Greens treat their Warders so. No Aes Sedai has passed her Warder's bond to another in four hundred years, but you intend to do it to me not once, but twice!"

Unshed tears glistened in Alanna's eyes. "In my place, you would have done the same!"

Cadsuane scowled over the cup at her. She might have. There was no difference between what Alanna had done and a man forcing himself on a woman, but, the Light help her, she might have, had she believed it would help her reach her goal. Now, she no longer considered even making Alanna pass the bond to her. Alanna had proved how useless that was in controlling him.

[gambril]

Much more experienced than Rand is?  What?  Really? Are we reading the same books?  After what, 6ish months the Ash'aman already seem to well exceed Aes Sedai in terms of channeling perfomance.  Aes Sedai training is a joke.  What do we read about as far as their training?  From what I can tell, they mostly spend their day either scrubbing pots and dishes and a little bit of lecturing on various histories and useless weaves.  All the while being told not to channel without an Aes Sedai present!  There is a reason the Black Tower would crush White Tower if it so chose.  Ash'aman training is intense, so intense in fact that 'training loses' are a fact of life to them lol.  So, when we've been given evidence time and time again of how incomptent Aes Sedai are, how can you say with emphasis that Aes Sedai know more than Rand when he has memories of Lews Therin who was one of the wisest and greatest channelers in an age where channelers were actually competent? 

[Lambada]

Aes Sedai training is a joke.  What do we read about as far as their training?  From what I can tell, they mostly spend their day either scrubbing pots and dishes and a little bit of lecturing on various histories and useless weaves.  All the while being told not to channel without an Aes Sedai present!

Whilst I generally agree with your point, it might be worth bearing in mind that we've only seen a very small section of training, and with very unusual girls. Standard training takes 10 years for novices and 10 years for Accepted. Also, I think they should be praised as they seem to be one of the few organised educational institutions in Randland - history, politics and the rest is very important for Aes Sedai afterall. Asha'men might be far ahead in Power learning, but they have virtually no organised knowledge of other lands (politics of, history of) - which will definitely be vital after the Last Battle when the direct need for Asha'men solely as weapons has ended.

[Barid Bel Medar]

After reading through most of this argument, I have come to several conclusions.

 

1. Egwene doesnt not have any "right" to be extremely mad at Rand. She has done similar things (bad things for the greater good) and would defend her actions, rightly so. Getting psissed at Rand for , in theory, doing the exact same thing, is not correct. (Note: Rand himself had nothing to do with the AM bonding, and he is the only one of the two who has tried to make peace with the Tower. He sent Narshima and Merise to smooth things over as best he could, Egwene, on the other hand, has only thought to be angry, not actually think of a solution (albeit she really hasnt been in a position to act. She still should be thinking about it (she possibly could be, I cant exactly remember atm))

 

2. I do not believe that Rand or Egwene will bow to one or the other, I think that they will have shared an "anger", not actually get angry at one another.

Eg. Both have been controlled by A'dam/Domination Band.

    Both ahve been imprisoned in a "box-like" state.

 

 

So in conclusion, I dont think  that either of them, Rand or Egwene, has any right to superiority over the other. Both have made mistakes, both have done abhorrent things. But the important thing is that they have both done what they have for the greater good.

 

Note: It is true that Egwene is wrong in thinking she needs to CONTROL the DR (whatever way she puts it, thats what she means) however, thats not her fault, and hers alone, it is the fault of AS, men havent been able to channel for three thousand years, all have gone mad and destryoed crap if they are not stoppped. To forgive and forget in a matter of months (since the cleansing) is a bit unrealistic. Its like if people managed to subdue wild tigers. Who would seriously be comfortable in being around one? You would still instinctively fear and believe they will pounce and rip your head off.

 

Having said that, I think the point of this is that Egwene and the AS need to overcome their distrust for men. (In tGS when Silvana says something along the lines of "men cant be trusted in general" and Egwene thinks to herself "you have to get over that" Is the best indication of that healing.

 

Thus, until they get over this, I dont think they have any right to superiority over Rand. (remember Rand has memories from LTT even if not all. He has been trained by Asmodean, LTT memories (before VoG, not certain if he has clear memories so i will leave that well enough alone) showed him weaves (ie. Arrows of Fire, Deathgates, keeping a gateway open, etc...) So as for knowledge, I dont think AS have any more than him at the present (As a collective, most likely, but not individually, except for perhaps cadsuane, who is doing the right thing, and shouldnt really be considered an "Egwene AS".)

[gambril]

Aes Sedai training is a joke.  What do we read about as far as their training?  From what I can tell, they mostly spend their day either scrubbing pots and dishes and a little bit of lecturing on various histories and useless weaves.  All the while being told not to channel without an Aes Sedai present!

Whilst I generally agree with your point, it might be worth bearing in mind that we've only seen a very small section of training, and with very unusual girls. Standard training takes 10 years for novices and 10 years for Accepted. Also, I think they should be praised as they seem to be one of the few organised educational institutions in Randland - history, politics and the rest is very important for Aes Sedai afterall. Asha'men might be far ahead in Power learning, but they have virtually no organised knowledge of other lands (politics of, history of) - which will definitely be vital after the Last Battle when the direct need for Asha'men solely as weapons has ended.

 

In some regards praised, but on the ones that count no.  They should be scorned, ridiculed and outcast for their lack of using their training and organization to advance the greater good of those they claim to serve.  Were they there for Malkier?  No.  Were they there for Menetheren?  No.  Most importantly, do they even seem to care?  Lol no.  In most areas, the best training comes from being in the field so to speak (like the SG's have been for the greater part) and what do they do, isolate themselves.  Joline of the Green Ajah,  the acclaimed battle ajah has been recieving training firsthand by arguebly the best possible general there is.  And what does she do in her Aes Sedai ignorance, try to take over Mat's battle plans lol.  Fortunately for Adelorna and the Green Ajah, she realized how much of a joke they are when they effectively put up no resistance to the Seanchan attack.

[Lambada]

Aes Sedai training is a joke.  What do we read about as far as their training?  From what I can tell, they mostly spend their day either scrubbing pots and dishes and a little bit of lecturing on various histories and useless weaves.  All the while being told not to channel without an Aes Sedai present!

Whilst I generally agree with your point, it might be worth bearing in mind that we've only seen a very small section of training, and with very unusual girls. Standard training takes 10 years for novices and 10 years for Accepted. Also, I think they should be praised as they seem to be one of the few organised educational institutions in Randland - history, politics and the rest is very important for Aes Sedai afterall. Asha'men might be far ahead in Power learning, but they have virtually no organised knowledge of other lands (politics of, history of) - which will definitely be vital after the Last Battle when the direct need for Asha'men solely as weapons has ended.

 

In some regards praised, but on the ones that count no.  They should be scorned, ridiculed and outcast for their lack of using their training and organization to advance the greater good of those they claim to serve.  Were they there for Malkier?  No.  Were they there for Menetheren?  No.  Most importantly, do they even seem to care?  Lol no.  In most areas, the best training comes from being in the field so to speak (like the SG's have been for the greater part) and what do they do, isolate themselves.  Joline of the Green Ajah,  the acclaimed battle ajah has been recieving training firsthand by arguebly the best possible general there is.  And what does she do in her Aes Sedai ignorance, try to take over Mat's battle plans lol.  Fortunately for Adelorna and the Green Ajah, she realized how much of a joke they are when they effectively put up no resistance to the Seanchan attack.

 

I did mean only in some respects.

Malkier: they sent Aes Sedai, but they were too late.

Manetheren: Tha Amyrlin of the time was deposed after she chose not to act out of jealousy. Most likely she also kept the plea for help hidden from the Hall.

 

I've already pointed out that I generally agree with your point anyway, so I don't see the need to address the rest.

[algspkr]

In some regards praised, but on the ones that count no.  They should be scorned, ridiculed and outcast for their lack of using their training and organization to advance the greater good of those they claim to serve.  Were they there for Malkier?  No.  Were they there for Menetheren?  No.  Most importantly, do they even seem to care?  Lol no.  In most areas, the best training comes from being in the field so to speak (like the SG's have been for the greater part) and what do they do, isolate themselves.  Joline of the Green Ajah,  the acclaimed battle ajah has been recieving training firsthand by arguebly the best possible general there is.  And what does she do in her Aes Sedai ignorance, try to take over Mat's battle plans lol.  Fortunately for Adelorna and the Green Ajah, she realized how much of a joke they are when they effectively put up no resistance to the Seanchan attack.

 

Moiraine said that they were too late to help Malkier, and we have been told that the failure at Manetherin was caused by the Amerlyn of the time betraying them.

[Durinax]

well for both manetheren and malkier they where both grossly incompetant, and since they likely had eyes and ears through both kingdoms, they had more than enough information to have acted upon, but they didnt thus sealing the fate of both

[Lambada]

In some regards praised, but on the ones that count no.  They should be scorned, ridiculed and outcast for their lack of using their training and organization to advance the greater good of those they claim to serve.  Were they there for Malkier?  No.  Were they there for Menetheren?  No.  Most importantly, do they even seem to care?  Lol no.  In most areas, the best training comes from being in the field so to speak (like the SG's have been for the greater part) and what do they do, isolate themselves.  Joline of the Green Ajah,  the acclaimed battle ajah has been recieving training firsthand by arguebly the best possible general there is.  And what does she do in her Aes Sedai ignorance, try to take over Mat's battle plans lol.  Fortunately for Adelorna and the Green Ajah, she realized how much of a joke they are when they effectively put up no resistance to the Seanchan attack.

 

Moiraine said that they were too late to help Malkier, and we have been told that the failure at Manetherin was caused by the Amerlyn of the time betraying them.

I'd already said that 3 whole hours before you'd said it. Well done for just bumping your post count - a truly wonderful contribution.

 

well for both manetheren and malkier they where both grossly incompetant, and since they likely had eyes and ears through both kingdoms, they had more than enough information to have acted upon, but they didnt thus sealing the fate of both

If they even had eyes and ears (which I'm not convinced on - given how openly they worked then), bear in mind how long it would take for pigeons to arrive, certainly a few days in both cases. We don't know enough about the timings, to know which bit was the failure.

[StringWinder]

 

2. I do not believe that Rand or Egwene will bow to one or the other, I think that they will have shared an "anger", not actually get angry at one another.

Eg. Both have been controlled by A'dam/Domination Band.

    Both ahve been imprisoned in a "box-like" state.

 

 

So in conclusion, I dont think  that either of them, Rand or Egwene, has any right to superiority over the other.

 

Note: It is true that Egwene is wrong in thinking she needs to CONTROL the DR (whatever way she puts it, thats what she means)

 

Thus, until they get over this, I dont think they have any right to superiority over Rand. (remember Rand has memories from LTT even if not all. He has been trained by Asmodean, LTT memories (before VoG, not certain if he has clear memories so i will leave that well enough alone) showed him weaves (ie. Arrows of Fire, Deathgates, keeping a gateway open, etc...) So as for knowledge, I dont think AS have any more than him at the present (As a collective, most likely, but not individually, except for perhaps cadsuane, who is doing the right thing, and shouldnt really be considered an "Egwene AS".)

 

While I agree that point two may be the way things work out, I'm not sure.  She might bring him to task for some of the things he's done.  He might be in a state of mind to be humble and listen, at this point too.  And if she does get mad at him, it doesn't mean she feels superior to Rand.  Just frustrated or angry.

 

And Eg does not want to CONTROL the DR.  There is no case of "no matter how she puts it"  She is not thinking of controling him and then putting a spin on her thoughts to delude herself into thinking otherwise.  She wants to help him, and help the world.

 

If you had a job, and were failing at it, and a coworker wanted to guide you to do a better job is that control?  Let's say said coworker was not doing this out of a desire to be friendy or nice to you, but so the company you both worked for could benefit and everyone who worked there would have a better time there, easier workload due to efficiency, more money to be made for more quality work, is that person a control freak?

 

And in regards to an earlier post comparing Eg to Taim for taking oaths...the people Eg had swear oaths were people that were trying to puppeteer her, so I see nothing wrong with that.  She has people within her own organization swearing oaths.  I don't hold offence to Rand taking oaths either.  Though I can see how Eg would think that she should be allowed to handle the situation instead of having initiates of the WT having sworn fealty to someone else.  Basically, those ppoeple shouldn't be considered a part of the WT anymore, it's a conflict of interest.

[Jeangray]

After what, 6ish months the Ash'aman already seem to well exceed Aes Sedai in terms of channeling perfomance.

 

The same point can be made about AoL training - after all, 3rd agers had much better success in dealing with the FS than LTT and Co and invented a lot of stuff that was deemed impossible back then.

Ditto fighting training since a lot of characters become able to thrash professional warriors and even blademasters after minimal training, etc.

 

RJ just didn't pay attention to these things - if he wanted somebody to be a badass, he just made them one, plausibility here or there.

 

can you say with emphasis that Aes Sedai know more than Rand when he has memories of Lews Therin who was one of the wisest and greatest channelers in an age where channelers were actually competent?  

 

Wisest? That's why so many of his acquiantances and subordinates went over to the Shadow due to personal problems with him ;). His Sealing plan had a world-breaking drawback that he was unaware of, and of course the supposedly wimpy 3rd agers can beat Forsaken posterior much better than he was ever able to.

 

You can't ream the WT, but exalt LTT. After all, War of the Shadow and possibly even the drilling of the Bore happened on his watch as the leader of the AS and supreme ruler of the world... He failed as badly as any 3rd Amyrlin.

 

P.S. Also, when comparing Egwene's experiences to Rand's, her captivity in Falme shouldn't be forgotten either.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

She compared the AS swearing fealty to Rand as equivalent of being leashed. Winter's Heart Chapter 26 "I am not trying to  Heal the White Tower just so he can chain Aes Sedai like damane".

 

As eluded to above, IMO, the AS swearing fealty to Rand is the most likely issue to anger Egwene.  Their oath supercedes the power of the Amyrlin & control of the WT.  They may want to stay with Rand even when faced with a choice.  Rand may refuse to release them from their oath until after TG... many possibilities.  

[Duskfire]

Wisest? That's why so many of his acquiantances and subordinates went over to the Shadow due to personal problems with him Wink. His Sealing plan had a world-breaking drawback that he was unaware of, and of course the supposedly wimpy 3rd agers can beat Forsaken posterior much better than he was ever able to.

 

You can't ream the WT, but exalt LTT. After all, War of the Shadow and possibly even the drilling of the Bore happened on his watch as the leader of the AS and supreme ruler of the world... He failed as badly as any 3rd Amyrlin.

 

While I tend to agree with you regarding how Lews Therin himself was quite flawed, to be fair to him what happened in the War of the Shadow was the best possible outcome. I know thats funny considering what happened, but in the end with hindsight used it was either have Saidin be tainted, or the Dark One released to an already ravaged world. No matter what, the good guys were doomed in the Age of Legends. Lews Therin was just unlucky enough to be the Patterns scapegoat.

[Durinax]

Wisest? That's why so many of his acquiantances and subordinates went over to the Shadow due to personal problems with him Wink. His Sealing plan had a world-breaking drawback that he was unaware of, and of course the supposedly wimpy 3rd agers can beat Forsaken posterior much better than he was ever able to.

 

You can't ream the WT, but exalt LTT. After all, War of the Shadow and possibly even the drilling of the Bore happened on his watch as the leader of the AS and supreme ruler of the world... He failed as badly as any 3rd Amyrlin.

 

While I tend to agree with you regarding how Lews Therin himself was quite flawed, to be fair to him what happened in the War of the Shadow was the best possible outcome. I know thats funny considering what happened, but in the end with hindsight used it was either have Saidin be tainted, or the Dark One released to an already ravaged world. No matter what, the good guys were doomed in the Age of Legends. Lews Therin was just unlucky enough to be the Patterns scapegoat.

well first of all LTT was a very good leader, and amyrlin. The bore may have been doen on his watch sure, but that was during research and development. But I think that the leadership of the times was more like the american system, where there is a system of elected officials, as a check system against LTT making a lot of decisions that effects everyone. That is why the women could choose not to go in (personnally i believe that there was the tamyrlin and two other amyrlins (one male and one female) then a council underneath). Besides I dont think that LTT could be blaimed for the bore or anythign like that, it should be blaimed upon all AS since it was likely a council decision to allow the research to go on. The war of shadows was under LTT and with sudden dissention of about half of the channellers with no idea who to trust he did the best possible.

 

Which is a lot better than what the WT tries to do (but often fails miserably), with the most blatent examples being Manetheren and Malkier

[farthammer]

LTT was someone of so many 'honors', titles, positions, it's difficult to tell really what he was good at.  As Jeangray points out there was something definitely rotten there, I get the impression a lot of the conflict going on around Rand is in somehow related to what his proper role in this should be and the road he took both as himself and LTT was the wrong one.

[Barid Bel Medar]

IN regards to Bel'al, Demandred and Sammael going over to the shadow because of their "problems" with LTT, it wasnt because he was in any way incompetent, it is because they were jealous of him doing all of this great stuff.

 

Also, you cannot compare the AoL, War of Power ot any current standards, in that time, the DO was more free than he ever was in the 3000 years afterwards to the current time.

 

There was no such thing as war before this, they had to discover it all over again, the current age is rife with war, they know whats going down. So you cant really blame LTT for that.

 

As to the 3rd ageers doing better at beating forsaken, well, keep in mind that there were maany ore forsaken than 13 in the AoL, these 13 just happened to be at the bore at the time to get sealed away.

 

The war of power consisted of many forms of shadowspawn, the gohlam (not  just hte one or two running around) Jumra (or whatever the "eveolved form" of worms are) much more dangerous by all acounts than the modern day shadowspawn.

 

Plus, nearly half of the world was fighting for the shadow (going back and forth) not just the occassional hidden DF.

 

So, you have heaps of Forsaken runnig about with massess of shadowspawn and a huge army (DF or not, they were forced to fight I think) when war has not been heard of.

 

Really, that LTT managed to survive the war was skill in itself.

 

Regarding the Sealing, true, it had some disasterous reprucusisions, but lets think about the state of the world. the Light was nearly done, they were up against the wall, they had just lost the only other plan (the CK access keys) to defeat the DO.

 

Sealing the Bore was a pretty damn good feat, and its not liike LTT could have ever guessed that saidin would be tainted. In any case, look at the eventual outcome, the DO and 13 forskaen trapped for 3000 years (except Ish of course). Thats pretty amazing.

 

True, there was the breaking , but could that be anticipated? the DO was virtually unknown in power, he couldnt ahve even speculated it. And if he did? Well, lets look at the other option, the pattern unravelled? I think you would take the taint any day.

 

Finally, in regards to 3rd agers beating more forsaken, doing better than LTT.

 

Lets look at that.

 

The forsaken were arrogant, leading to incompetence and mistakes, because they thought of the modern poeple as children. They would not have done that in the AoL, they wouldnt make those mistakes.

 

Lets now see who actually defeated them and how.

 

1. Be'lal - Moiraine sneaked up and BF him.

2. Lanfear, again, sneaked up and pushed her through the doorway.

3. Mog. She was an arrogant fool and Nynaeve did well and beat her. (but Mog, was never one for outright combat, she would never blunder like that against her "equals")

4. Semi- She was taken down by a host of channelers, Cads, Nynaeve, Logain, the AM.

The rest were destroyed by Rand, LTT reborn.

 

In light of that, really, how great has AS been? Luck and Rand destroyed the Forsaken. (except Nynaeve, shes good, but thats 1 person.)

 

So really, there is no way you can compare LTT to modern AS, he was so far above them its not funny.

 

[farthammer]

Well the thing is it's not so clear cut to say he wasn't incompetent when so many of his generals and former friends betrayed the Light.  Either because he left his forces exposed to cherry picking or apparently so oblivious any of them were at that stage.  Like King Laman, how many battles can you justify when the reason they are being fought comes down to one person?  Before you remove yourself as the motivation for such things in some form or fashion and seek a better way, or someone assassinates you just to get all of it to stop.

 

Also we really wouldn't have a series if LTT had found a way besides the two choices we've been told he had.  If the possibility of TG being resolved without annihilation of the pattern or simply a repeat of sealing the bore remain open now in the third age, I can't see how you could rule out the possibility of a better solution for LTT in the AoL.

[Charlz Fel]

Someone who could be persuaded to join the Shadow out of dislike/jealousy for LTT was probably not a very reliable leader for the Light in the first place, although they might have given that impression.  Additionally, I can't imagine LTT was harder to get on with than Rand is now.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well the thing is it's not so clear cut to say he wasn't incompetent when so many of his generals and former friends betrayed the Light.  Either because he left his forces exposed to cherry picking or apparently so oblivious any of them were at that stage.  Like King Laman, how many battles can you justify when the reason they are being fought comes down to one person?  Before you remove yourself as the motivation for such things in some form or fashion and seek a better way, or someone assassinates you just to get all of it to stop.

 

THey betrayed him because they were jealous (Demandred) and wanted power (Sammael). They wanted to be on top, but LTT was always better for the job than them, so they turned. Its in the BWB, i dont know where you get the fact that they betrayed him because he was incompetent.

 

Demandred, who hates LTT more than anyone else in the world, still acknowledges his brilliance.

 

Really, the BWB says LTT was the most accomplished person of the age, wherever you are getting this deal about incompetence, you may want to look again.

 

Besides, even if he did make some mistakes, we are comparing him to modern day AS here, and by the standard you hold LTT to, the AS have done pretty badly. Nearly a whole 1/3 of the tower was Black Ajah, much more than LTT's "betrayers" and for less reason.

 

BY all of the Forsaken accounts aswell, LTT was a formidable enemy, if there is some indication that he was incompetent, ive not seen it (please direct me to a source) if there is no source, well, how can I agrue against that?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Perhaps I should make it clear now that I am not saying that LTT was infallable, he msot likely made some mistakes.

 

What I am saying, is that saying he was incompetent and that the modern AS could do better than him is completely foolish.

[farthammer]

I just used incompetent because you said LTT wasn't in the context of those AS that betrayed the light.  Yeah those are the stated reasons for them turning to the Shadow but in many cases there are usually multiple reasons and factors, those side issues are basically what I am talking about.  LTT and the Dragon being all kinds of awesome at everything has been a major theme throughout the series, I don't have to imply any of them are false really, but there's just nothing else to really keep talking about LTT = Awesome.

 

I think it is a big part of the story that the shadow so far, has been a lot better at the game of wooing powerful people to that side.  LTT may not have been able to prevent any of those betrayals in the end but at the same time he hasn't done a very good job at preventing it or lessening the impact of those types of things.  The 'dark Rand' of the last handful of books has been a pretty shitty leader at times even if we can sympathize with the reasons for it.  LTT had similar problems (betrayal etc.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I just used incompetent because you said LTT wasn't in the context of those AS that betrayed the light.  Yeah those are the stated reasons for them turning to the Shadow but in many cases there are usually multiple reasons and factors, those side issues are basically what I am talking about.  LTT and the Dragon being all kinds of awesome at everything has been a major theme throughout the series, I don't have to imply any of them are false really, but there's just nothing else to really keep talking about LTT = Awesome.

 

I think it is a big part of the story that the shadow so far, has been a lot better at the game of wooing powerful people to that side.  LTT may not have been able to prevent any of those betrayals in the end but at the same time he hasn't done a very good job at preventing it or lessening the impact of those types of things.  The 'dark Rand' of the last handful of books has been a pretty shitty leader at times even if we can sympathize with the reasons for it.  LTT had similar problems (betrayal etc.)

 

Dark Rand has been a prick, but still pretty efficiant, but anyway, thats beside the point.

 

I agree when you say that LTT wasnt perfect, of course, no one is, but it wasnt him personally that suffered the betrayals. (except Demandred and Sammael, which were out of jealously) it was the Light in general. I dont see how LTT could stop people from betraying him. the DO offers immortality and power above what anyone else could give, how do you combat against that?

 

To say that the betrayals were his personally is wrong, they abandoned the light, not LTT. He was just the lead figure, who, by all acounts did exteremly well fighting a loosing battle.

 

So really, I dont know how you can say that it was LTT fault all those people betrayed the Light...

 

However, that is not what I was arguing in the first place, what I was saying is that to say any modern AS (who have had a whole list of disasters when the DO wasnt even around, who are distrusted by many, who have only a fraction of the knowldege availible in the AoL, and who need a criminal binder to hold them to their word) are in any way more competent than LTT was is just absurd, with no basis, where all indications point to LTT being superior. If one says that (an I am not saying you are, im jst adressing the genrral debate) then it is their own personal love for AS and dislike for LTT, for there is no evidence to suggest that the AS now could do better, and, as i said, every indication LTT was superior.

 

Thats all I was saying.

[farthammer]

He was good friends with some of them before the war, you could call that a personal betrayal.  Otherwise, LTT was the leader of the forces of the light, it is his responsibility in the context of his command.  Not everything is so black and white, pointing out his responsibilities or failures does not mean everything was either 100% his fault or 100% not his fault. 

 

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

He was good friends with some of them before the war, you could call that a personal betrayal.  Otherwise, LTT was the leader of the forces of the light, it is his responsibility in the context of his command.  Not everything is so black and white, pointing out his responsibilities or failures does not mean everything was either 100% his fault or 100% not his fault. 

 

 

 

sigh... I already adressed those betrayals, your going round in circles.

 

 

Those personal betrayals werent because of incompetence, they were becausse Demandred and Sammael were jealous.

 

Also, adress my points.

 

I said, how the hell is he supposed to stop people from betraying him when teh DO offers immortality, power beyond anything LTT can give them and rulership over the whole world. Theres just no way, people who want power and that are going to betray the light, no matter who is commander.

 

Adress this also, there was no evidence that LTT was incompetent, and no evidence that suggests that because he was incompetent, people betrayed him, so I dont see how you could even suggest it with any finality, it simply doesnt exist.

 

What we DO know however, is he was one of the most accomplished and skilled person of the age.

 

Your argument has no basis. (if it does, provide it)

 

ITs like saying Hitler was a nice guy, it just wasnt recorded. It doesnt make sense, and there is no way to argue it.

 

Really, are you jsut arguing because you dont like admitting you were wrong?

 

[Durinax]

didnt one of the forsaken forsake the light because of jealousy and the fact that LTT kept heaping rewards and titles upon him which made him angrier and jealouser.

 

LTT was one hell of a leader, much better than his contemporary (but this is because of different stresses LTT didnt have until late in his life when he knew somewhat how to deal with it)

 

contemporary AS are fools, that is fact and I dont think anyone will argue. Although we have seen a few great ones rise about from AS ranks, those being Moraine, Suian, Cadsuane, Elayne, Nynaeve, (and personnally I hate to admit it) Egwene.

 

now as for the fact of betrayals, LTT had it the worst and there was literally nothign he could do to stop them since the DO was almost loose and could almost directly wisper his poison into the ears of the people. Now as for contemporary AS they are hearing the poison through a friend of a friend so to speak, and most of them are naturally evil or cruel, the thing that bothers me is how terrible the leadership was that they didnt suspect or start searchign for the disease that is the BA, hell they even had a binder and where using it all the time. Personnally I think that some of the forsaken started the WT and purposefully made sure that no oath about folloowing the DO made it into the 3 oaths