Relevance of the Wolves at the Last Battle

[Sentinel78]

 

Relevance of the Wolves at the Last Battle?

 

 

We know that the wolves (and through them, Perrin) are going to have an impact on the Last Battle somehow.  Compared with Mat’s artillery, Darkhounds that can kill with a bite and other Shadowspawn, not to mention potentially thousands of channelers on both sides, how can they possibly be significant though?  Let’s consider the special abilities of the wolves:

 

Wolf Abilities

 

(1) Wolves have enhanced senses.  Wolves can smell/track Shadowspawn, see at night, etc.

(2) Wolves can detect channelers.  Perrin describes their ability as being able to detect a single white sheep out of a herd of black sheep.  Easily distinguishable at a distance.

(3) Wolves can apparently detect souls.   They recognize Rand as the ‘Shadowkiller’, and apparently know his significance instantly.  How else, unless they can detect souls?  Their ability to detect channelers is not enough, even coupled with Rand being ta’veren.  Perhaps they can also detect epically ‘evil’ souls like Moridin’s?

(4) Wolves are telepathic.

(5) Wolves have OLD memories. They remember when wolves ran with man (predates second Age), and also recognize Rand as the Shadowkiller (the last ‘Shadowkiller’ would have been Lews Therin I would presume, so 3000+ years).

(6) Wolves die and ‘retire’ in TAR. What are the only other lifeforms we know that do this?  That’s right – the Heroes of the Horn.  Plus, the wolves abilities appear to be pretty high in TAR.  Consider that Hopper spied on Lanfear and Ishamael in Book 3 without being detected.  However, the wolves were unable to detect Birgitte in Book 5 (when she talked to Perrin) and Slayer is able to track and kill wolves in TAR.

(7) The distance ‘force’ sensed by Perrin in tGS that Hopper stopped him from reaching.   What could this be?  The secret area where all the rest of the ‘dead’ wolves hang out?  Lucker’s unseen eyes, i.e., the evil that drives Fain/Mordeth?  Whatever it is, Hopper knows.

(8 ) Wolf souls are used to generate Darkhounds.   OK, not exactly an 'ability', but it's another odd aspect to wolves.

 

 

Potential Wolf Impact on the Last Battle

 

(1) Spy network for the Light. Wolves can track Shadowspawn army movements, target enemy channelers for assassination by Mat’s artillery or Light channelers, etc.  Their telepathic ability can then provide the Light with real-time enemy army movements.  Think what Mat could do with that kind of scouting.

(2) TAR. Will TAR be important in the Last Battle?  If so, compare the numbers of available ‘dead’ wolves versus the relatively few Dreamwalkers that the Light (or the Shadow) can field.  The dead wolves would dwarf human numbers in TAR.

(3) Wolf army. I doubt the wolves can have the numbers to really make an impact militarily.  Their lack of armor or weapons beyond teeth/claws won’t do much against fully armored Shadowspawn in large numbers. 

(4) Food gatherers. We know the world is entering a period of severe starvation.  In Book 6, the wolves herded deer and other animals for Perrin’s group when they were heading to Dumai’s Wells to keep their group out of the wolves’ way. 

(5) Helping Perrin kill Slayer. If Perrin’s battle against Slayer is fought in TAR, the wolves could be very helpful.  Still, Slayer’s only one man (or two men?), so the wolves likely have more to do than simply helping Perrin in that respect.

(6) Wolves remember how to win the Last Battle. Could the old memories of the wolves have some special knowledge related to how to seal up the Dark One?  Long-shot.

(7) Wolves know about the unseen eyes.   Luckers theorizes that the Unseen Eyes of TAR are the evil that drives Fain/Mordeth and corrupted Aridhol into Shadar Logoth.  If so, maybe the wolves know about this, and can help out.

 

Any other special abilities that I left out?  Any other potential ways the Light can leverage those abilities?

 

[Morsker]

(2) TAR. Will TAR be important in the Last Battle?  If so, compare the numbers of available ‘dead’ wolves versus the relatively few Dreamwalkers that the Light (or the Shadow) can field.  The dead wolves would dwarf human numbers in TAR.

 

The way Hopper talks, he expects to run with Perrin at the Last Hunt. Either some or all of the battle takes place in T'A'R, or the wolves can be called back like the Heroes.

[Aquarius]

(2) TAR. Will TAR be important in the Last Battle?  If so, compare the numbers of available ‘dead’ wolves versus the relatively few Dreamwalkers that the Light (or the Shadow) can field.  The dead wolves would dwarf human numbers in TAR.

 

The way Hopper talks, he expects to run with Perrin at the Last Hunt. Either some or all of the battle takes place in T'A'R, or the wolves can be called back like the Heroes.

Or Perrin's part of the LB is in TAR, while other people do something else in the real world.

[Naffy]

Perrin has done absolutely nothing of real significance in the story so far (I credit Taim and Ashamen for saving Rand at the wells).  So odds are he will use the wolves to save Faile during the last battle.

[Charlz Guybon]

I assume that Darkhounds will be involved somehow.

[FarShainMael]

I read this and got a serious attack of goosepimples..

 

(6) Wolves die and ?retire? in TAR.  What are the only other lifeforms we know that do this?  That?s right ? the Heroes of the Horn.  Plus, the wolves abilities appear to be pretty high in TAR.  Consider that Hopper spied on Lanfear and Ishamael in Book 3 without being detected.  However, the wolves were unable to detect Birgitte in Book 5 (when she talked to Perrin) and Slayer is able to track and kill wolves in TAR.

(7) The distance ?force? sensed by Perrin in tGS that Hopper stopped him from reaching.   What could this be?  The secret area where all the rest of the ?dead? wolves hang out?  Lucker?s unseen eyes, i.e., the evil that drives Fain/Mordeth?  Whatever it is, Hopper knows.

 

...

 

(7) Wolves know about the unseen eyes.

 

Yes, they certainly do.. they ARE the unseen eyes!!

 

I know the theory is that the UE are evil, but I've never been convinced of that. They make you uncomfortable, true, but being watched by someone unseen would.

 

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

The first thing I think about T'A'R and TG together is moving troops. Perrin has a dream, Hopper tells him the Shadowspawn are coming again but from the Wolfdream, the good guys figure stuff out???

[jadelollipop]

Wolves becoming Darkhounds (Shadowbrothers?). Would the wolves killed by Slayer become Darkhounds?

[Sentinel78]

Yes, they certainly do.. they ARE the unseen eyes!!

 

I know the theory is that the UE are evil, but I've never been convinced of that. They make you uncomfortable, true, but being watched by someone unseen would.

 

I think this was ruled out as being the BUT because the Wolfdream and wolves being retiring into TAR upon death was introduced in Book 3, which is prior to Brandon's BUT criteria of the first hints starting in Books 4-6.

 

The first thing I think about T'A'R and TG together is moving troops. Perrin has a dream, Hopper tells him the Shadowspawn are coming again but from the Wolfdream, the good guys figure stuff out???

 

Possible, but it's tough to detect non-permanent changes to the real-world from TAR, and areas such as the Blight cannot be accessed from TAR at all.  I'm not sure how effective scouting the real-world from TAR would be.

 

Wolves becoming Darkhounds (Shadowbrothers?). Would the wolves killed by Slayer become Darkhounds?

 

Doubtful.  Darkhounds are created by an existing darkhound consuming the soul of a wolf.  Slayer is not an existing Darkhound, unless he captures the soul from his kills for a Darkhound to consume or something. 

[FarShainMael]

The UE may not be the BUT as it is defined, but they could still be the wolves.

 

[Cirin]

Yes, they certainly do.. they ARE the unseen eyes!!

 

I know the theory is that the UE are evil, but I've never been convinced of that. They make you uncomfortable, true, but being watched by someone unseen would.

 

The timeline may rule it out, but maybe not.  It's certainly possible, especially since wolves watching you from where you can't see them isn't exactly a good thing.  Perrin is a Wolfbrother, and they don't fight for the Shadow, but they can still be pretty terrifying.

 

It also doesn't necessarily explain the feeling of eyes watching you in Shadar Logoth, or when a bubble of evil emerges... I think that's why it's generally associated with evil, although the feeling of being watched in Shadar Logoth and the evil bubbles don't necessarily have to go together.

 

They do all three tend to have things in common though, and even the feeling of being watched is one of fear and unease.  It sort of makes me wonder if (and I mentioned this on another post too), the "eyes" are not necessarily the "unseen foe" that Perrin has to deal with - that could be anyone (although it certainly could be the eyes) - but rather the very idea of fear and paranoia.  These are the fabric of what nightmares are made, and surely nightmares must exist to some extant in the World of Dreams.  The bubbles of evil are also very similar to waking nightmares - unexplained and random things that evoke terror - and the evil that destroyed Shadar Logoth thrived on fear, paranoia, and distrust.  But, we'll have to wait and see.

 

As for the Wolves... well, they are wolves... and wolves are pretty rockin'.

 

And, as you said, we don't know that the Unseen Eyes are the BUT anyway...

[Crael123]

i have also been curious about what the wolves impact will be. cant the wolves kill darkhounds? arent they going to fight them in TG

[Durinax]

i have also been curious about what the wolves impact will be. cant the wolves kill darkhounds? arent they going to fight them in TG

wolves avoid darkhounds since if a wolf is caught its turned into a darkhound

[Ataxia]

I thought that if they didnt kill the darkhound, all that were killed in the attempt turned into DHs. If they killed DH, then the souls were safe.

[Durinax]

I doubt even a pack could kill a single darkhound since its saliva is poison its larger than a wolf I believe, is excedingly strong and are incredibly hard to kill

[Morsker]

I wonder what the odds are Hopper says You come too strongly Young Bull, during the Last Battle?

[Crael123]

but then why do the wolves say they will fight the shadow brothers when the last day comes or something likethat

[Durinax]

but then why do the wolves say they will fight the shadow brothers when the last day comes or something likethat

probably because they have no choice, and will be part of the assault against hte shadow

[Duskfire]

Do they need to have a significant role at all? 

 

Personally I see them as just another set of troops that the Light will have to fight the Dark One with. They get their ass kicked by pretty much every shadowspawn, so they couldnt really be used to take down anything of note. They could be used for scouting purposes, and things like flanking and whatnot. Surprise attacks maybe.

 

I just see wolves as an important part of Perrins character development, as well as a large part of the information we have gotten about TAR. I cant really seeing them having a significant impact apart from just being there.

[OptimusPrime]

The first thing I think about T'A'R and TG together is moving troops. Perrin has a dream, Hopper tells him the Shadowspawn are coming again but from the Wolfdream, the good guys figure stuff out???

 

Possible, but it's tough to detect non-permanent changes to the real-world from TAR, and areas such as the Blight cannot be accessed from TAR at all.  I'm not sure how effective scouting the real-world from TAR would be.

 

I wasnt saying scouting the real world from T'A'R. What I meant was that a shadowspawn army might be taken into T'A'R only to spill out at, say, Demandreds choice location via a gateway. (Do T'A'R gateways kill Shadowspawn as well???) and that if Demandred or whoever was moving such an army through the Dreamworld, Perrin may (or may not) go there and lead the dead wolves of T'A'R against this Shadowspawn army that was going to appear in the centre of some major city or whatever.

 

If he led the dead wolves as well, I think it would be an interesting spin on his T'A'R abilities. And it could definitely have the sort of scale that Mat seems to get with his exploits more often than Perrin.

[Ataxia]

Do they need to have a significant role at all?  

 

Personally I see them as just another set of troops that the Light will have to fight the Dark One with. They get their ass kicked by pretty much every shadowspawn, so they couldnt really be used to take down anything of note. They could be used for scouting purposes, and things like flanking and whatnot. Surprise attacks maybe.

 

 

How about when Rands camp gets ambushed and the wolves save them? Or when they help track the Horn? Or when they help at DW? I dont see them getting their butts kicked by every shadowspawn. They are afraid of darkhounds, but are fearless vs anything else. But I agree with the flanking and scouting. Wonder what their numbers will be if they all gather.

[FarShainMael]

Yes, they certainly do.. they ARE the unseen eyes!!

 

I know the theory is that the UE are evil, but I've never been convinced of that. They make you uncomfortable, true, but being watched by someone unseen would.

 

The timeline may rule it out, but maybe not.  It's certainly possible, especially since wolves watching you from where you can't see them isn't exactly a good thing.  Perrin is a Wolfbrother, and they don't fight for the Shadow, but they can still be pretty terrifying.

 

It also doesn't necessarily explain the feeling of eyes watching you in Shadar Logoth, or when a bubble of evil emerges... I think that's why it's generally associated with evil, although the feeling of being watched in Shadar Logoth and the evil bubbles don't necessarily have to go together.

 

They do all three tend to have things in common though, and even the feeling of being watched is one of fear and unease.  It sort of makes me wonder if (and I mentioned this on another post too), the "eyes" are not necessarily the "unseen foe" that Perrin has to deal with - that could be anyone (although it certainly could be the eyes) - but rather the very idea of fear and paranoia.  These are the fabric of what nightmares are made, and surely nightmares must exist to some extant in the World of Dreams.  The bubbles of evil are also very similar to waking nightmares - unexplained and random things that evoke terror - and the evil that destroyed Shadar Logoth thrived on fear, paranoia, and distrust.  But, we'll have to wait and see.

 

As for the Wolves... well, they are wolves... and wolves are pretty rockin'.

 

And, as you said, we don't know that the Unseen Eyes are the BUT anyway...

 

Something has ben bugging me about this 'fear and unease', and I finally pinned it down.

 

In WH Ch10, Elayne enters T'A'R to met with Egwene. Elayne's PoV: 'The ever-present sensation of unseen eyes watching was not dreamlike - more like a nightmare - but she had grown accustomed to that'.

 

I recalled that AFAIR, Elayne and others who have entered T'A'R and noted the presence of the UE, have not dreamed themselves into armour and carrying weapons to defend themselves. At some level they do not perceive the UE as a threat, no matter how 'nightmarish' they seem.

 

I throw this into the ring for consideration.

 

[Duskfire]

Do they need to have a significant role at all?  

 

Personally I see them as just another set of troops that the Light will have to fight the Dark One with. They get their ass kicked by pretty much every shadowspawn, so they couldnt really be used to take down anything of note. They could be used for scouting purposes, and things like flanking and whatnot. Surprise attacks maybe.

 

 

How about when Rands camp gets ambushed and the wolves save them? Or when they help track the Horn? Or when they help at DW? I dont see them getting their butts kicked by every shadowspawn. They are afraid of darkhounds, but are fearless vs anything else. But I agree with the flanking and scouting. Wonder what their numbers will be if they all gather.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I thought they were useless. They will still be at TG, and in numbers, but their overall importance won't be anymore then say Tairens or Sea Folk or whatnot. They will just be another contingent of the general army that has their own uses. However, you will find that against the majority of shadowspawn they only win by sheer numbers. I've forgotten how many it takes for them to take down a Fade... six? seven? A couple for a trolloc. Darkhounds they wouldn't be much use against, and thats not even taking into account the real nasty stuff like Gholam, Jumara, etc etc.

 

Thats why it'll mostly be scouting.

[Sentinel78]

Do they need to have a significant role at all?  

 

Personally I see them as just another set of troops that the Light will have to fight the Dark One with. They get their ass kicked by pretty much every shadowspawn, so they couldnt really be used to take down anything of note. They could be used for scouting purposes, and things like flanking and whatnot. Surprise attacks maybe.

 

 

How about when Rands camp gets ambushed and the wolves save them? Or when they help track the Horn? Or when they help at DW? I dont see them getting their butts kicked by every shadowspawn. They are afraid of darkhounds, but are fearless vs anything else. But I agree with the flanking and scouting. Wonder what their numbers will be if they all gather.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I thought they were useless. They will still be at TG, and in numbers, but their overall importance won't be anymore then say Tairens or Sea Folk or whatnot. They will just be another contingent of the general army that has their own uses. However, you will find that against the majority of shadowspawn they only win by sheer numbers. I've forgotten how many it takes for them to take down a Fade... six? seven? A couple for a trolloc. Darkhounds they wouldn't be much use against, and thats not even taking into account the real nasty stuff like Gholam, Jumara, etc etc.

 

Thats why it'll mostly be scouting.

 

Perhaps very sophisticated scouting.  The one cool ability I mentioned in my initial post is their ability to see Channelers, including male Channelers.  The closest thing to this is Cadsuane's ter'angreal that 'hums' when male Channelers are in close proximity, but the wolves' ability is much more accurate and they can see from great distances.  If wolves say, spotted Halima/Ar'angar, I would think they'd mention to Perrin that this she-human can channel saidin.  I doubt that the weave for masking your ability to Channel would fool the wolves either.  Their ability seems much more instinctual.

 

I agree that even if there is a Wolf army, it would be in support capacity.  I doubt they have the numbers or strength to have a huge effect against a Shadowspawn army.

[llcoolj]

Yes, they certainly do.. they ARE the unseen eyes!!

 

I know the theory is that the UE are evil, but I've never been convinced of that. They make you uncomfortable, true, but being watched by someone unseen would.

 

The timeline may rule it out, but maybe not.  It's certainly possible, especially since wolves watching you from where you can't see them isn't exactly a good thing.  Perrin is a Wolfbrother, and they don't fight for the Shadow, but they can still be pretty terrifying.

 

It also doesn't necessarily explain the feeling of eyes watching you in Shadar Logoth, or when a bubble of evil emerges... I think that's why it's generally associated with evil, although the feeling of being watched in Shadar Logoth and the evil bubbles don't necessarily have to go together.

 

They do all three tend to have things in common though, and even the feeling of being watched is one of fear and unease.  It sort of makes me wonder if (and I mentioned this on another post too), the "eyes" are not necessarily the "unseen foe" that Perrin has to deal with - that could be anyone (although it certainly could be the eyes) - but rather the very idea of fear and paranoia.  These are the fabric of what nightmares are made, and surely nightmares must exist to some extant in the World of Dreams.  The bubbles of evil are also very similar to waking nightmares - unexplained and random things that evoke terror - and the evil that destroyed Shadar Logoth thrived on fear, paranoia, and distrust.  But, we'll have to wait and see.

 

As for the Wolves... well, they are wolves... and wolves are pretty rockin'.

 

And, as you said, we don't know that the Unseen Eyes are the BUT anyway...

 

Have we ever seen in the books that Perrin feels the UE? I know i have seen lots of quotes from the girls but cant think of them for Perrin.  If he doesnt ever mention feeling them, then it makes sense that the wolves are the UE because he can sense them anyway. The eyes wouldn't stand out to him because he knows what they are.