Seanchan Prophecy; Fact or Fiction

[Durinax]

what I would like to see is moridin come into a meeting with rand and fortuona and reveal all he did in regards to the seanchan

[Sentinel78]

The K-cycle was likely tampered with by Ishamael, as explained by Luckers. 

 

However, the Essanik Cycle is no purer, and is itself a combination of good and bad prophecy.  RJ said in an interview that because sul'dam remained in the gene pool in Seanchan, Talents in Seanchan, such as Foretelling, were preserved to a greater degree.  This led to a mistaken belief that all damane could Foretell. 

 

From this, it is probably correct to assume that, overall, there have been more true prophecies in Seanchan and included in the Essanik cycle than there have been on the main continent since Hawkwing died (although who knows about Shara, where they deliberately breed channelers and even keep the male-channelers in the gene pool). 

 

However, there is also bound to be a lot of pure crap thrown into the mix, such that anything coming out of the Essanik cycle should be treated with suspicion.  Luckers is correct in that there is nothing suggesting any actual foul play, but the mistaken Seanchan belief that all damane can Foretell would lead to mistaken prophecies.  This probably has something to do with their weird superstitions as well.  For example, some crackpot damane sees someone die right after an owl hooted, so she tells her sul'dam that owls hooting precede a death, etc...

 

Thus, I think the Essanik cycle is a combination of fact and fiction, the ratio of which is unknown.

[farthammer]

How does the idea that there have been more true prophecies made in Seanchan since Hawking follow from a mistaken belief that all damane coud foretell?  Unless there is some iron clad way of verifying the truth of any prophecy they're essentially at the level of horrorscopes on both sides of the ocean.

[yoniy0]

I think Rand is just going to become a slave to the Seanchan, and they'll use him to win the Last Battle, then conquer the world after he dies and the world is saved.

You're probably just joking, but if you weren't, I think Nicola's Foretelling about the land being divided by the return after TG is a good indication that the Seanchan won't have an easy job at reunifying Randland.

 

How does the idea that there have been more true prophecies made in Seanchan since Hawking follow from a mistaken belief that all damane coud foretell?  Unless there is some iron clad way of verifying the truth of any prophecy they're essentially at the level of horrorscopes on both sides of the ocean.

A while back I tried to argue the point that the whole bit RJ wrote with Tuon and Mat each calling the other one's beliefs superstition was meant to make us ask ourselves if everything we were told from book one is actually true (for example, do we really know crows can relay intel to the Myrdrraal?). You hear Tuon go on and on about omens, and you automatically think that she's just superstitious, but you tend to forget that everything going on with the OP isn't exactly what you would call solid science here and now.

[Durinax]

I think Rand is just going to become a slave to the Seanchan, and they'll use him to win the Last Battle, then conquer the world after he dies and the world is saved.

You're probably just joking, but if you weren't, I think Nicola's Foretelling about the land being divided by the return after TG is a good indication that the Seanchan won't have an easy job at reunifying Randland.

 

How does the idea that there have been more true prophecies made in Seanchan since Hawking follow from a mistaken belief that all damane coud foretell?  Unless there is some iron clad way of verifying the truth of any prophecy they're essentially at the level of horrorscopes on both sides of the ocean.

A while back I tried to argue the point that the whole bit RJ wrote with Tuon and Mat each calling the other one's beliefs superstition was meant to make us ask ourselves if everything we were told from book one is actually true (for example, do we really know crows can relay intel to the Myrdrraal?). You hear Tuon go on and on about omens, and you automatically think that she's just superstitious, but you tend to forget that everything going on with the OP isn't exactly what you would call solid science here and now.

but with the omens when she was with mat they went wrong multiple times

[yoniy0]

You have to allow for the possibility that omens can change what previous omens told you, and that Selucia could actually count wrong. All you have to go on here is what Mat thinks of the whole thing, and you shouldn't necessarily take his beliefs as cannon.

 

Also, as I previously mentioned, we accept some of the Randlanders' beliefs at face value without any concrete proof. Why is that, do you think?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Tuon has everything right, and all Randlanders are superstitious idiots. Just that RJ might have been trying to get us to rethink everything we took for granted.

[Durinax]

You have to allow for the possibility that omens can change what previous omens told you, and that Selucia could actually count wrong. All you have to go on here is what Mat thinks of the whole thing, and you shouldn't necessarily take his beliefs as cannon.

 

Also, as I previously mentioned, we accept some of the Randlanders' beliefs at face value without any concrete proof. Why is that, do you think?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Tuon has everything right, and all Randlanders are superstitious idiots. Just that RJ might have been trying to get us to rethink everything we took for granted.

well if you can accept that omens can affect previous ones then I could 'predict' a thunderstorm three days from now because I saw 7 ducks swim in a small pond with a deer drinking from it, and then keep changing it on percieved flight patterns of other birds or seeing animals run across the road until I am right

[Paerish Swar]

I have a question about which Cycle, Karaethon or Essanik, Miraj and Tuon are referencing when they speak of the Dragon serving/kneeling before the Crystal throne.

 

So, here are the quotes that Luckers graciously provided (emphasis mine):

 

The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too, not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!

 

[tPoD; 24, A Time For Iron]

 

This is obviously paraphrased--later we get a different phrasing of that prophecy from Tuon.

 

"I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost." The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly.

 

[WH; 14, What a Veil Hides]

 

I trust Tuon's phrasing more than Miraj--her knowledge seems more specific than his. But kneel or serve both would probably confuse Moiraine.

 

And here is the final page of tGS:

 

At the end of time,

when the many become one,

the last storm shall gather its angry winds

to destroy a land already dying.

And at its center,

the blind man shall stand

upon his own grave.

There he shall see again,

and weep for what has been wrought.

 

- from The Prophecies of the Dragon,

  Essanik Cycle.  Malhavish's

  Official Translation, Imperial

  Record House of Seandar,

  Fourth Circle of Elevation.

 

The Essanik Cycle and the Karaethon Cycle are both referred to as The Prophecies of the Dragon?

 

So my question is, do we know which Cycle mentions the Dragon kneeling to the Crystal throne?  Is it in the Essanik or Karaethon (the Seanchan corrupted version, that is)?

 

Tuon's comment is vague enough that it might suggest that that specific line exists in the Essanik Cycle.  Or not.

 

Miraj's comment seems more specific in that he seems to be speaking of the Karaethon cycle only.  But, the line "not one mentioned him serving the Crystal throne," is so vague that he could be thinking of a completely different line than Tuon is. 

 

Surely a Seanchan would interpret the line, "he shall bind the Nine Moons to him," as referencing the Dragon serving the Seanchan Empire, that they would be bound together against the Shadow.  So Miraj must be referencing a specific mention of the Crystal throne itself in the Karaethon Cycle (Seanchan version).

 

But is that the line Tuon is thinking of, too?

 

The Crystal Throne must have been in Seanchan before Luthair got there; he didn't bring it with him, right?  So the specific Crystal Throne reference in the Karaethon cycle must have been inserted after the Consolidation (or maybe during).

 

But where did it come from?  From some other precedent or just rabid self-interest.

 

The pre-Consolidation Seanchan had the Karaethon cycle (which likely had no mention of a Crystal throne just as the Westland version), but they also had more modern people who could Foretell, whose words contributed to the development of the Essanik Cycle, right?  These pre-Consolidation Seanchan are the only people who could have had a preexisting knowledge of a Crystal Throne.  They could have had Prophecies regarding their Crystal Throne and the rebirth of the Dragon long before Luthair ever arrived on their continent.

 

So my real question is . . .

 

Is the line about him kneeling before the Crystal Throne a part of the Essanik Cycle, specifically?

 

If so, is it then more likely to be a legitimate Prophecy?

 

Could Luthair, or one of his descendants, have taken the lead from the language of the Essanik Cycle and added that specific reference into the Karaethon cycle intentionally to extinguish any doubt about the legitimacy of Crystal Throne and the Royal line?

 

I'm just wondering about this because, if the specific language of, "he shall kneel before the Crystal Throne," is in the Essanik Cycle and if it were there before Luthair even got to the continent, that could be a pretty big deal.  A much bigger deal than if it were just in the Karaethon Cycle, since that would obviously just be a corruption. 

[farthammer]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Tuon has everything right, and all Randlanders are superstitious idiots. Just that RJ might have been trying to get us to rethink everything we took for granted.

 

Early on they seemed they served some useful purpose within the story, as far as the world knowing ahead of time some way of determining the legitimate Dragon.  On the other hand they served in some sense as a script for false Dragons to declare themselves and make war and so on.  They really just seem to serve to manipulate or coerce the world into following a specific path provided you can convince people a particular interpretation is true (Rand only seeing his own death at the end of it).  Foretelling and prophecy didn't prevent the bore from being made anyways.

[farthammer]

The Seanchan prophecy is fake but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Because the Seanchan so firmly believe that this event will take place it will have some effect on what happens. Rand very well might kneel in some way to the throne as a symbol of the peace between the two sides. He won't be forced into it. Basically just because it's fake doesn't mean it won't happen anyway.

 

Or it may become true in an unexpected way.  If Ishamael did tamper with that particular prophecy and if the Seanchan were desperate enough, make Rand out to be a false Dragon and have either Ishamael or some other DO agent kneel before the Crystal Throne and hijack them like the Shaido.  It wouldn't become true in fact but true enough for the Seanchan.

[Sentinel78]

How does the idea that there have been more true prophecies made in Seanchan since Hawking follow from a mistaken belief that all damane coud foretell?  Unless there is some iron clad way of verifying the truth of any prophecy they're essentially at the level of horrorscopes on both sides of the ocean.

 

More true prophecies are from the stronger Talents.  The higher prevelance of Talent resulted in the mistake that Foretelling is a gift shared by all damane, instead of a special few.  Thus damane that can't Foretell spout out some BS that is added to the Essanik cycle, which would cause errors in the E-cycle.

[Luckers]

Irrespective of the fact that it could happen, it won't. It is a fabrication.

 

Regardless which is real which is fake, which has been tampered or not. People on each side of the ocean BELIEVE theirs is the right one. They can’t just stop believing in it.

 

 

I'm not suggesting Tuon doesn't believe, or that this won't cause problems, but lacking the veracity of that prophecy in the face of the one about Rand binding the Nine Moons to serve him there is nothing to suggest she'd succeed in her intentions--in fact there is a considerable amount to suggest she will not.

 

However, the Essanik Cycle is no purer, and is itself a combination of good and bad prophecy.  RJ said in an interview that because sul'dam remained in the gene pool in Seanchan, Talents in Seanchan, such as Foretelling, were preserved to a greater degree.  This led to a mistaken belief that all damane could Foretell. 

 

The Seanchan don't believe that all damane can 'tell fortunes'. Tuon specifies Lidya as 'one of those who can' which shows they know some can't. Damane are unlikely to lie.

[farthammer]

Ok, there may have been potential for more true prophecies to be made overall in Seanchan.  I suppose my question was directed at even if that were the case hardly any of it is credible at this point in the story line.  

[Sentinel78]

 

The Seanchan don't believe that all damane can 'tell fortunes'. Tuon specifies Lidya as 'one of those who can' which shows they know some can't. Damane are unlikely to lie.

 

Incorrect Luckers (for once).  RJ explicitly said that Seanchan mistakenly believe that all damane can tell fortunes.  See the following excerpt from one of RJ's blog posts:

 

For kcf, Tuon is stating a misbelief, really, a Seanchan urban folk tale, if you will.  The Seanchan no longer know about Foretelling — though they are beginning to hear reports – but they have memories of the knowledge, you might say.  There memories have gotten twisted into the widespread belief that any damane can tell your fortune.  This belief is strengthened by the fact that some damane actually can Foretell, and more of them than on “this” side of the Aryth Ocean, a facet of sul’dam remaining in the breeding pool with the result that there are a higher percentage of women who potentially could channel among the Seanchan than on the Eastern side of the ocean.  And also a higher percentage of many Talents.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?m=200511

 

Thus, there is a widespread belief among Seanchan that all damane can tell fortunes.  There is nothing to suggest that Tuon is not under this delusion, nor the recorders of the Essanik cycle.

[Luckers]

Alright--though I would point out that wide-spread is not universal. There is a wide-spread belief that the Forsaken were bound at the moment of creation, and that the Dragon will fight on the side of the Shadow, but many know the truth there. Similarily the sul'dam--those who would be recording these 'fortunes' may well know that only some damane can do it, even though the population in general believes all can.

 

But, ok, say they do believe it of all damane--consider, most damane would be telling fortunes based on the omens and the like, not giving genuine foretellings. As such why would they give a fortune on the Dragon or the Last Battle?

 

Random Sul'dam: Tell my fortune.

 

Random damane: er... in 800 years your descendent would go to a meeting with the Dragon Reborn?

 

Random Sul'dam: With the Emperor?

 

Random damane: Uh... yeah sure, let's go with that.

 

See what I'm saying. Even if damane were fabricating fortunes its still likely that those given about the Dragon or the Last Battle are genuine foretellings because... well, why would a fake speak about that?

[Duskfire]

But for argument sake if Rand does end up bowing down to Tuon, does that mean the prophecy is fake? As I pointed out earlier, the Pattern may have taken the tampering into account, which means technically the prophecy is correct, even if its original intentions were fakery.

[Luckers]

Nope, it'd still be a fake. A lie doesn't become truth just because someone follows through on it.

[Charlz Guybon]

The Seanchan prophecy is fake but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Because the Seanchan so firmly believe that this event will take place it will have some effect on what happens. Rand very well might kneel in some way to the throne as a symbol of the peace between the two sides. He won't be forced into it. Basically just because it's fake doesn't mean it won't happen anyway.

 

Rand is going to learn of this fake prophecy eventually. He'll probably know it to be fake but he'll see that the Seanchan will not budge on this. He very well could go along with it just to appease them. Or else he'll trip over something and fall in front of Tuon and everybody will raise their hands up and say "Behold!" as he fulfills the prophecy while getting back up.

Lots of people have believed lots of things just as strongly as the Seanchan believe in that prophecy, yet things haven't gone the middle way for them and it won't for the Seanchan.

 

The K-cycle was likely tampered with by Ishamael, as explained by Luckers.  

 

However, the Essanik Cycle is no purer, and is itself a combination of good and bad prophecy.  RJ said in an interview that because sul'dam remained in the gene pool in Seanchan, Talents in Seanchan, such as Foretelling, were preserved to a greater degree.  This led to a mistaken belief that all damane could Foretell.  

Got a link to this interview? Sounds interesting.  

 

EDIT: Never mind, saw the quote.

[Diederichos]

Here's my question. Would Rand ever have gone to Rhuidean if he didn't believe that that's where he was supposed to go? Would he have gotten rid of Callandor if the prophecy didn't state that he'd get rid of it. Prophecy, while in this case actually true, is also to a great part self fulfulling.

 

And I think for clarification, that the particular phrasing of that last prophecy segment, shows that the Essanik Cycle is the collection of all the recorded prophecies in Seanchan and that the Prophecies of the Dragon are merely a part of it. Or it could be that, but also that there is a seperate set of prophecies called the K Cycle alongside the E Cycle's own Prophecies of the Dragon. But I think Brandon's answer makes clear that the Essanik cycle is not simply about the Dragon but a bigger collection.

[azrael.1289]

Here's my question. Would Rand ever have gone to Rhuidean if he didn't believe that that's where he was supposed to go? Would he have gotten rid of Callandor if the prophecy didn't state that he'd get rid of it. Prophecy, while in this case actually true, is also to a great part self fulfulling.

Which prophecy states Rand has to go to Rhuidean(sp?)?

Regarding Callandor, I think he would have. IIRC, he was afraid to be near it for some time after his experience of trying to resurrect a dead person.

[Barid Bel Medar]

1. If Ish. did tamper with the Seanchan prophecy (which is pretty certain) could he not have also tampered with the Westland prophecy aswell? Taking into account both say one would serve the other in some form, wouldnt it be like Ish. to make that happen so both are constantly at war? Could it be that both prophecies (in this particular case, it would be hard for Ish. to tamper with the WHOLE prophecy, but one or two lines would be do able) are wrong and that the finns "prophecy" is true, (the north and west/south and east become one or whatever) that originally it was only that the two would form an alliance?

 

2. Could the binding already have happened? With Mat marrying Fortuna and all, that could be said to be binding her to Rand, it doesnt neccessarily mean Rand himself would do this personally, just that he would in some way, and we know Mat is basically an extention of Rand's power along with Perrin. (Not the same person, but from the same alliance)

 

3. Although i believe the seanchan prophecy is tampered with almost certainly, just beacuse the Chrystal Throne wasnt heard of, doesnt mean that it couldnt be prophesied about, i mean, isnt that the point of prophecy? prediciton of what will happen? Surely half of the stuff in the prophecy wasnt known about or existed when it was told

[Charlz Guybon]

1. If Ish. did tamper with the Seanchan prophecy (which is pretty certain) could he not have also tampered with the Westland prophecy aswell? Taking into account both say one would serve the other in some form, wouldnt it be like Ish. to make that happen so both are constantly at war? Could it be that both prophecies (in this particular case, it would be hard for Ish. to tamper with the WHOLE prophecy, but one or two lines would be do able) are wrong and that the finns "prophecy" is true, (the north and west/south and east become one or whatever) that originally it was only that the two would form an alliance?

Too many copies in the west, many in the white tower that can't be gotten to easily.

 

Too ensure his "two dooms" all he had to do was alter the copies brought by Luthair.

[CUBAREY]

Too ensure his "two dooms" all he had to do was alter the copies brought by Luthair.

And the Big White Book at least suggests that Ishy was Jalwin Moerad Hawkwing's adviser who would have been in the perfect position t adulterte the copies thatLuther would have takn wth him.

[Smalley]

I thought Ismael was in suspended animation along with the other forsaken until the events of the Eye of the World.

 

They were trapped when the bore was sealed at the end of the war of the powers and escaped when the seals began to fail.

 

[algspkr]

I thought Ismael was in suspended animation along with the other forsaken until the events of the Eye of the World.

 

They were trapped when the bore was sealed at the end of the war of the powers and escaped when the seals began to fail.

 

 

All except Agnior, Balathemel and Ishmael were trapped as you stated.

 

Agnior and Balathemel were trapped near the surface so they could watch the world change, and they aged.

 

Ishmael was not completely trapped and had brief periods of freedom every thousand years or so.