A Possible Theory Regarding the Last Battle

[Cirin]

Here's a theory I have about how the Light may win against the Dark One, although I fully realize that it could certainly be wrong.  Just posting it here to see what people think.  It's maybe been mentioned before, but I hadn't really seen a lot of discussion regarding it:

 

My theory largely has to do with the theme of Rand trying to be turned to the Dark One's service, and the whole idea of "A Memory of Light."  At the end of The Gathering Storm, we see him come to a point where he wants to escape his destiny by breaking the Wheel of Time, the endless cycle of death and rebirth.  Then he realizes that these cycles afford him a second chance - a chance to set things right.

 

This story arc is not all that different from that of Moridin/Elan Morin's.  When he and Rand are talking earlier in the book, you find out that it was logic that turned Moridin to the Dark One - the realization that only if the Dark One was victorious would the Wheel be broken, and the cycle escaped.

 

Now, clearly there is a theme of turning the Champion to your cause - the whole point of Rand's story arc in the Gathering Storm was largely the Dark One trying to turn him.  We have also seen this come up time and time again throughout the story, as when Elan Morin was playing a game from the Age of Legends.  He talked about the Fisher, the most important piece, and one that could change sides.

 

With this theme of corruption/redemption coming up time and again, it makes me wonder if "A Memory of Light" might not refer to Elan Morin.  If the Light can succeed where the Dark failed, and turn Elan Morin back to the Light, that would tip the scales in the Light's balance.  If anyone knows how to seal the Dark One's prison, it would be Elan Morin.  After all, we've been told since book one that NO ONE has walked so long in the Shadow that they cannot find the Light.  Since Elan Morin joined the Dark One not out of lust for power, but to destroy the Wheel of Time, if he can be made to see that the cycle of death and rebirth is a good thing, it may be enough (along with any influence that Rand might have on him through their bond) to lead him back to the Light.

 

While that is easily plausible (although still may not be the case), the next part is perhaps a little less likely, but I think still very plausible.

 

That got me wondering about Elan Morin's past.  They mention that he was always bound by logic.  Likely, if the Ajah's existed in the Age of Legends then (I don't recall if they did or not... I know the Greens came about later, but not sure when the others started), he was likely a White.  While going from White to Black and back to White would be symbolic, it doesn't necessarily mean anything.  We also know that he is called "the Betrayer of Hope," although we're never really told how he got that title.  They do say that he burned down the Hall of Servants - which is certainly a major task - but they never say if that was when he turned, afterwards, etc.

 

In Veins of Gold, Rand ends up in the same place that Moridin is - wanting to escape the cycle of rebirth by destroying the Wheel.  His epiphany brings him back from the darkness, though.  That got me curious as to what led Moridin to the same conclusion Rand was drawn to.  While it's certainly plausible that Rand's view was so similar to Moridin's view simply because it was Moridin's view (influenced via their link, etc.), it's also possible that Elan Morin Tedronai held that view because he had been in the same place.

 

That got me thinking that it would be interesting (and, I think, plausible - although again I fully realize this may not be the case) if the reason Elan Morin Tedronai has so much in common with Rand is because he has literally been there before.  What if Elan Morin was called the Betrayer of Hope because he was "supposed" to be the Champion of Light, but turned to the Dark One and tried to destroy the Wheel.

 

Of course, I didn't think this was possible without the Dark One winning, but the other day someone pointed out on a different thread this quote from Robert Jordan:

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

That suggests that it is indeed possible for the Champion of Light to side with the Shadow, and for the result to not be the destruction of the Wheel of Time, but a draw.  What would a draw against the Shadow look like, though?  The only thing I can think of is that it would look a lot like what happened in the Age of Legends - a temporary seal, not a permanent one, that will one day break open again.  That makes me wonder if Elan Morin was supposed to be the Champion of Light, sided with the Shadow, and that Llews Therin was able to pull out a draw after this betrayal.  Llews Therin was the Dragon, and I'm not really sure that that was a transferable title, but it doesn't really say that "the Dragon" and "Champion of the Light" are synonymous, at least not that I remember, particularly for the Age of Legends.

 

What do you think?  Plausible, or no?

[jemron]

Interesting.  I don't remember where I read this, but I do remember a discussion or something, maybe a Q&A, where it was basically agreed that the "Champion of the Light" and the "Dragon" are/were not always the same thing.  If I remember correctly, RJ stated that the Dragon has never been turned, but the "Champion of the Light" has on occasion, causing the draw as you pointed out.  Or maybe that was in the discussion on this board somewhere.

 

As for Moridin turning to the Light; I've never liked that theory, but your explanation could make it okay for me if it came out that way in the end.  Frankly I think it makes Ishy/Moridin's character less cool and more of a wuss if he changes to the Light after all the horrible evil that he has done.  Many people say that the meeting between Rand and Moridin in the dream room near Shayol Ghul in TGS is an indication that Moridin may be changed, but when I read that scene I only see that Moridin is tired and wants existence to end forever; which is why he's on the DO's side.  Personally, I don't get any indication from that scene or any others that Moridin will turn to the Light.

 

Still, I like where your thoughts are headed, and of all of the WoT discussions, the most intriguing ones for me are the ones about the Creator vs. the DO and Ishidin vs. Rand

[FarShainMael]

OT @jemron: regarding your sig:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

 

[DPT24]

  I like the theory, but I was under the impression, and I can't remeber from where, but that Ishamel was a scholor in the Age of Legends, and while powerful, was never a major champion for the light, but what made him the "Betrayer of Hope" was that he was a respected philosopher at the time. 

[jemron]

OT @jemron: regarding your sig:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

 

 

Cool.  But I'm still unsure as to exactly what Ba'alzamon was referring to when he said he wanted to destroy the Great Serpent.  Is he speaking of an entity, or of creation and time itself?  Or all of these in one?  It would seem that the Creator is all for the cycle of time continuing.  Rand seems to be for it too, as of VoG.  Maybe this question is rhetorical, but I think now that the Great Serpent is both the Creator and his creation of cyclical time (the Wheel).  They are one...?

[FarShainMael]

I read it as Great Serpent = The Wheel, so to destroy the GS is to stop the Wheel. The Creator would not be pleased, but I don't think He would be destroyed.

 

[Kaznen]

 I like the theory, but I was under the impression, and I can't remeber from where, but that Ishamel was a scholor in the Age of Legends, and while powerful, was never a major champion for the light, but what made him the "Betrayer of Hope" was that he was a respected philosopher at the time.  

 

In the BWB they said after the research team tapped into the Cholam Dam(?) there was a decay in morality and ethics going on something like 50 years.  None of the thinkers at the time could figure out what was causing the change in society until finally Elan Morin Something or other said it was because an enity call Shai'tan who was sealed from creation blah, blah, blah, anyway his prison was broken and was touching the world and planning to take it over. Then the AS finished by saying he had already joined him, soon after the first trolloc attacks started.

 

While their had to be more then a few dark friend AS (forsaken to be) during those 50 years they kept things silent.  Elan Morin Something or other revealed that they were all doomed and he was helping them.

 

Keep in mind at the time Elan was a respected and famous philosopher as well as a prominent AS.

 

To put it in today's context imagine what the reaction would be if Steven Chu, Secretary of Energy, came out and said he had been working with bin Laden for the past 25 years.

[yoniy0]

Interesting. Even if Elan Morin wasn't the Light's champion back during the War of Power, it's entirely plausible that this round would be decided by his coming back to the Light. Two things that come to mind:

a) This doesn't have to make him a 'wuss', as jemron puts it. Think of it as something akin to Darth Vader's last act - not totally redeeming, but still a point of good in an otherwise corrupt soul.

b) It might be argued that this is foreshadowed to a degree by Verin's saying the DO looks for selfishness in his/her/its Forsaken because that makes them predictable. Elan Morin might be the sole exception to that rule - he's being kept in such a high position because he's the only human we know of that truly shares the DO's motivation and understands him/her/it the best. As such, he's in a unique position to betray the DO at the end.

[Crael123]

i like this theory, but then wouldnt it be anticlimactic? i mean i am hoping for a massive battle not another epiphany... VOG was good but idk dumani's wells was better.

[algspkr]

i like this theory, but then wouldnt it be anticlimactic? i mean i am hoping for a massive battle not another epiphany... VOG was good but idk dumani's wells was better.

 

If it happens the epiphany will be before the end.  There will be a major fight of some sort after it happens.

[DemandredFO]

If Elan Morin turns back I'd think there'd still be a huge fight first.  Persuing the Vader analogy, Vader didn't turn until near death.  Lots of people, 2 death stars, countless ships and Luc being brought to the brink of death occured before Annikan turned back.  I see it as kind of a deathbed conversion if it happens, not Moridin popping up and saying hi I've had a change of heart here's all I know.  We'll get our massive attacks, I need to see egwene and the tower humbled or I might throw something.

[Vassili]

While I previously would have laughed at the theory of Moridin jumping ship, I think TGS opened it up as a real possibility. Moridin isn't selfish like the other forsaken; I think he actually feels he is doing humanity a favor be annihilating us all.

 

An equally pertinent question brought up in this thread: what happens if the Light and Shadow pull a "draw"? Was LTT's last assualt one of these draws? And if the Dragon goes over to the Shadow, HOW could it end in anything but the DO's victory?

[yoniy0]

The key to that, IMHO, is the true nature of the fight between the DO and the forces of Light. It may very well be that the DO actually needs something to be done by the champion of the Light, out of ignorance, in order to win the fight. If so, Rand might be not be only obstacle in the DO's path to freedom.

[FarShainMael]

I'm beginning to wonder if Elan Morin Tedronai was originally 13-13'd to turn him into Ba'alzamon.. and is now reverting.

 

We are told that the process of 'turning' involves exaggerating and intensifying the person's existing negative traits to an overwhelming degree, so that even the strongest-willed is overwhelmed. But I don't believe the will would be actually destroyed, but it would persist as a 'quiet voice in the heart'. Perhaps now, aided by the Rand connection, that voice is beginning to make itself heard. If so, who knows which way the cat will jump, come TG!

 

[Dida]

Thanks for opening up the discussion Ciran.  :)

 

Linda's writing about the Ages of the Wheel raises similar themes to your theory:

 

There Are No Beginnings or Endings... Unless the Dark One Ends Time

 

 

  Yet should not your theory fit better during a different turning of the Wheel than going from the Third Age to the Fourth Age? 

 

However, so far everything in the story has fit together with prior foretellings, even Rand's lost of hope and the begins of regaining hope in tGS.  It just feels like a Golden Age is around the corner, even though there are likely a bunch of cliffhangers coming in ToM--from Elayne being captured by Darkfriends, Aviendha stuck in Glass Columns after destroying them with the Twisted Ring, Empress Fortuona being asked to try on an a'dam around her neck, Trollocs & fightning everywhere, Lady High Alteima & Padan Fain Mordeth popping up in Murandy, Moiraine & Lanfear returning et la.

 

 

 

In Veins of Gold, Rand ends up in the same place that Moridin is - wanting to escape the cycle of rebirth by destroying the Wheel.

 

  Did you consider the twins evils wound Warded on Rand's side with Saidin, is failing now?  Just at the time the Bore seals are all failing too?

 

  To fight the Dark One and to save the World from Shadowspawn, its going to require both Saidar & Saidin to be successful. 

[yoniy0]

It just feels like a Golden Age is around the corner

Does it? :) I think Nicola would probably disagree ('The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade').

[mossman87]

Thanks for opening up the discussion Ciran.  :)

 

Linda's writing about the Ages of the Wheel raises similar themes to your theory:

 

There Are No Beginnings or Endings... Unless the Dark One Ends Time

 

 

   Yet should not your theory fit better during a different turning of the Wheel than going from the Third Age to the Fourth Age? 

 

However, so far everything in the story has fit together with prior foretellings, even Rand's lost of hope and the begins of regaining hope in tGS.  It just feels like a Golden Age is around the corner, even though there are likely a bunch of cliffhangers coming in ToM--from Elayne being captured by Darkfriends, Aviendha stuck in Glass Columns after destroying them with the Twisted Ring, Empress Fortuona being asked to try on an a'dam around her neck, Trollocs & fightning everywhere, Lady High Alteima & Padan Fain Mordeth popping up in Murandy, Moiraine & Lanfear returning et la.

 

 

 

In Veins of Gold, Rand ends up in the same place that Moridin is - wanting to escape the cycle of rebirth by destroying the Wheel.

 

   Did you consider the twins evils wound Warded on Rand's side with Saidin, is failing now?  Just at the time the Bore seals are all failing too?

 

   To fight the Dark One and to save the World from Shadowspawn, its going to require both Saidar & Saidin to be successful. 

 

I find you entertaining for the most part, but it absolutely drives me nuts when you bring your pet theories into new ones and act like they're fact.

[Casabamelon]

I'm beginning to wonder if Elan Morin Tedronai was originally 13-13'd to turn him into Ba'alzamon.. and is now reverting.

 

We are told that the process of 'turning' involves exaggerating and intensifying the person's existing negative traits to an overwhelming degree, so that even the strongest-willed is overwhelmed. But I don't believe the will would be actually destroyed, but it would persist as a 'quiet voice in the heart'. Perhaps now, aided by the Rand connection, that voice is beginning to make itself heard. If so, who knows which way the cat will jump, come TG!

 

 

It's a nice idea, but I doubt Aginor(it was him, right) created the Fades yet at that point. And they came after the Trollocs...

[Dragan]

I'm beginning to wonder if Elan Morin Tedronai was originally 13-13'd to turn him into Ba'alzamon.. and is now reverting.

 

We are told that the process of 'turning' involves exaggerating and intensifying the person's existing negative traits to an overwhelming degree, so that even the strongest-willed is overwhelmed. But I don't believe the will would be actually destroyed, but it would persist as a 'quiet voice in the heart'. Perhaps now, aided by the Rand connection, that voice is beginning to make itself heard. If so, who knows which way the cat will jump, come TG!

 

 

Regarding Elan Morin Tedronai i have the following information on him-- Elan Morin Tedronai was originally a philosopher and theologian during the Age of Legends. He was in the prime of maturity: good looking with fine cut clothes and dark, penetrating eyes and a commanding presence; his voice had the air of both reason and command. He was often too esoteric for popular appeal. He wrote many books including Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, and Disassembly of Reason. When the hole was made in the Dark One's prison, he looked at events critically, rather than despairingly. Being a theoretician, he came to believe that the struggle between the Creator and the Dark One was not new to this world; it had, in fact, existed since the dawn of time in a cycle, using human pawns as champions. He believed that the Dark One would eventually be the winner and unmake the Wheel of Time, and so became one of the first Chosen by convincing himself of the logic of such a move. He is a master of the board game sha'rah.

 

As to him being a "Champion of the Shadow" the following information is available-- He became the Dark One's champion, being equal in the One Power to Lews Therin Telamon. He declared his allegiance to the Shadow at a conference of Aes Sedai, arguing that the Light was the losing side. Given his stature as a figure and power, his proclamation sparked massive riots.  It was the masses who gave him his new name: Ishamael, Betrayer of Hope. Also called "Soul of the Shadow", he was the Dark One's leading general, despite the fact that during the War of Power he did not hold any field commands. However, he was defeated by Lews Therin at the gates of Paaren Disen.

 

i doubt Elan will come back to the light as it makes no logical sense since EVENTUALLY the Shadow will win its just a matter of time and since the Lord of the Dark can bring him back over and over again baring the application of Balefire all he has to do is be patient and as a scholar i doubt that will be a problem for him.

[FarShainMael]

I'm beginning to wonder if Elan Morin Tedronai was originally 13-13'd to turn him into Ba'alzamon.. and is now reverting.

 

We are told that the process of 'turning' involves exaggerating and intensifying the person's existing negative traits to an overwhelming degree, so that even the strongest-willed is overwhelmed. But I don't believe the will would be actually destroyed, but it would persist as a 'quiet voice in the heart'. Perhaps now, aided by the Rand connection, that voice is beginning to make itself heard. If so, who knows which way the cat will jump, come TG!

 

 

It's a nice idea, but I doubt Aginor(it was him, right) created the Fades yet at that point. And they came after the Trollocs...

 

No, Aginor was someone else:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/aginor.html

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/i/ishamael.html

 

 

EVENTUALLY the Shadow will win its just a matter of

time

 

Why?

 

[yoniy0]

It's a nice idea, but I doubt Aginor(it was him, right) created the Fades yet at that point. And they came after the Trollocs...

No, Aginor was someone else:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/aginor.html

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/i/ishamael.html

I think the point was that Aginor hasn't created the Trollocs yet, so Elan Morin couldn't have been turned (that trick requires the presence of Myrdrraal, who by the way are deformed descendants of Trollocs, they weren't directly created by Aginor).

 

EVENTUALLY the Shadow will win its just a matter of time

Why?

Well, Elan Morin would say that since the DO only needs a single win, his eventual victory is assured. I'm not saying I agree.

[Dragan]

I'm beginning to wonder if Elan Morin Tedronai was originally 13-13'd to turn him into Ba'alzamon.. and is now reverting.

 

We are told that the process of 'turning' involves exaggerating and intensifying the person's existing negative traits to an overwhelming degree, so that even the strongest-willed is overwhelmed. But I don't believe the will would be actually destroyed, but it would persist as a 'quiet voice in the heart'. Perhaps now, aided by the Rand connection, that voice is beginning to make itself heard. If so, who knows which way the cat will jump, come TG!

 

 

It's a nice idea, but I doubt Aginor(it was him, right) created the Fades yet at that point. And they came after the Trollocs...

 

No, Aginor was someone else:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/aginor.html

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/i/ishamael.html

 

 

EVENTUALLY the Shadow will win its just a matter of

time

 

Why?

 

 

i say that the Shadow will win eventually simply because eventually the Shadow will win ether by fluke or simply overwhelming the forces of the Light because as we have seen Elan Morin Tedronai and Lews Therin Telamon have at some turnings fought on the same side whether it be for the forces of the Light or for the Shadow ether way technically if u look at it nether side has ever had a clear cut victory. Since the battle between them still rages on and the Dark Lord still stirs in Shayol Ghul and the Wheel still turns clearly he has never been defeated, pushed back certainly but not defeated. And since the Wheel does in fact still Turn the Forces of the Light have never been defeated all of the Tarmon Gai'dons threw all the turnings of the Wheel there is always a stalemate. The question is Does Al'Thor who Destroyed the Choedan Kal have what it takes to end the struggle or is he just another spinning of Lews Therin Telamon destined to fight the same battle for all of time?

[martymart]

Quote from: Suttree on May 28, 2010, 05:29:09 PM

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

It seems to me that RJ is suggesting that neither side has ever won/lost. In other words, both sides have been able to "stay in" because each TG has resulted in some kind of draw. While the DO views a win as destroying/killing the Great Serpent, I remember there also being implications of a way to destroy/kill the DO once and for all (which would of course be a win for the Light). Since we can be fairly sure neither of these things have ever happened, could it be that every TG or Last Battle thus far has only ended in a draw?

 

Also, this line of thinking brings a whole new set of questions to mind. Is the Great Serpent a literal manifestation of the Creator?  If a win for the Dark results in the Wheel no longer turning, can the same be said of a win for the Light? Is the Wheel's continued turning contingent upon a balance between the Light and the Dark?

 

Sorry about all the questions! Just wanted to throw them out there, and this seemed like the place to do so.

[Smalley]

FRom the indications in the Gathering Storm it looks to me that somehow Rand must use a blend of the male and female powers along with the dark power. He now has access to two of these and his alter ego did say that at the end of the War of the Power the female power wielders let him down claiming his idea was too risky and he was forced to only use the male power as a resonance on the dark power to effect a temporary seal.

 

One thing I am unsure of is the next age, given a win for the light, is it the fourth age or the first age?

[Hadilmir]

FRom the indications in the Gathering Storm it looks to me that somehow Rand must use a blend of the male and female powers along with the dark power. He now has access to two of these and his alter ego did say that at the end of the War of the Power the female power wielders let him down claiming his idea was too risky and he was forced to only use the male power as a resonance on the dark power to effect a temporary seal.

 

One thing I am unsure of is the next age, given a win for the light, is it the fourth age or the first age?

Potentially it could be any age. The current age is called the 'Third Age' but it's uncertain whether or not this is true.