A new power...

[Ishmayl]

In the BWB it has the whole chapter regarding the OP...

 

I can never really take an argument with evidence presented from the BWB seriously.  Why?  Because RJ specifically said that the book was written as though by a scholar from the Wheel of Time universe, meaning their information could be terribly wrong about certain things.

 

Keep in mind, I'm not trying to argue that I'm right... I have no idea, and haven't really speculated on it much.  I just think that certain quotes and circumstances from the books may point towards the True Source not being quite as neutral as we thought.

[Tollieman]

i have an issue with the notion that the OP is the essence of the Creator and the opposite of the TP which is the essence of the DO.

 

the issue is this:  how can the DO "taint" part of the power of the Creator?  If the two sides are equal, then shouldnt the Creator's power have equally "tainted" the DO?

 

It looks like there is no "light" tainting of the DO, so this makes it appear that the OP is a middle ground between the DO and the Creator, which makes it appear that there is a "new power" stemming directly from the Creator

 

While I don't necessarily agree the OP is the essence of the Creator, the fact that it is 'tainted' wouldn't be a reason you could exclude the possibility; imagine the mmost delicious pudding you've ever eaten. Now wrap it in spinach (I'm REALLY not a fan). The pudding is still great, but you've got to go through the rubbish to get to it.

 

Now make the spinach poisonous and, eat enough pudding you get enough spinach to make you sick. I mean, mad.

 

So there might actually be zero taint ON saidin. Just on the doorway to it. Maybe? I mean, that's actually how it's explained isn't it...

[FarShainMael]

Can you find the reference? My impression so far is that the True source / One Power is neutral.

 

 

I'll see what I can do...

 

?There are many dangers from which I cannot protect them,? Moiraine agreed, ?any more than you can protect them from being struck by lightning if they go home. But it is not lightning of which they must be afraid, nor even Whitecloaks. It is the Dark One, and minions of the Dark One. From those things I can protect. Touching the True Source, touching saidar, gives me that protection, as it does to every Aes Sedai.?

 

?Oh, it is catching,? Moiraine said, ?and your . . . protection would not save you.?

 

^^This^^ one is in reference to Nynaeve asking if Mat's condition, due to Shadar Logath, is catching

 

?What can we do?? he asked. ?There has to be something.?

?Staying close by me,? Moiraine replied, ?will help. Some. The protection from touching the True Source extends around me a little remember. But you cannot always remain close to me.

 

?Which would you choose instead?? Moiraine asked quietly. ?The Whitecloaks within Caemlyn, or the Trollocs without? Remember that my presence in itself gives some protection from the Dark One?s works.?

 

So even just in the first book, there are several references to Protection from the Dark One and his minions, just from being able to touch the True Source.

 

Thanks for that. Now I'm really puzzled.

 

If the OP is indeed neutral (which I'm happy with) and the DFs (mis)use it for theor own ends (ditto) then I can only surmise that Moiraine is thinking of some specific application of the OP, a special weave perhaps, rather than an intrinsic property of the OP. I'm thinking that at the time she was talking to some unsophisticated hayheaded country bumpkins and did not want to confuse them by getting into too much detail too early. Only problem with that is of course, the Oath against lying.. but perhaps she didn't see it as a lie, only a simplification.

 

[Tollieman]

Thanks for that. Now I'm really puzzled.

 

If the OP is indeed neutral (which I'm happy with) and the DFs (mis)use it for theor own ends (ditto) then I can only surmise that Moiraine is thinking of some specific application of the OP, a special weave perhaps, rather than an intrinsic property of the OP. I'm thinking that at the time she was talking to some unsophisticated hayheaded country bumpkins and did not want to confuse them by getting into too much detail too early. Only problem with that is of course, the Oath against lying.. but perhaps she didn't see it as a lie, only a simplification.

 

 

I'm sure she was NOT lying. After all, you have a better chance of physically defending yourself (or others) if you are able to channel.

 

The protection from touching the True Source extends around me a little

for example; of course only a little, like 'line of sight' maybe. That Aes Sedai wordtwisting  ;)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also, just beacuse it protects against shadowspawn, even if it is the power itself, that doesnt mean that it HAS to be a power of the Creator, i mean, just beacuse a shield protects you from harm, doesnt mean its a saint or a god given object, its just a shield

[Ishmayl]

Can't channelers also sense Shadowspawn to some degree?  That sounds like a defense mechanism to me, and why would people who have the Gift have a defense mechanism built into them unless the Gift itself thought the Dark was "bad?"  Someone may need to verify if that's even accurate about the sensing, but I'm pretty sure we've read that before.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm not sure about the Senssing bit, i know Warders do, and i assume that was from the bonding weave used not a thing of the OP, as to AS sensing or having a defence mechanism, thats on seen in tEotW it isnt mentioned anywhere else, all of the other conflicts with shadowspawn dont mention the sensing (AFAIK in any case) I just put their sensing down to a ward type thing that warns them of Shadowspawn. Also, a point that i have just thought of, the DO was bound outside of the pattern, so woudlnt it make sense that the OP, "the Driving force of the Wheel" (in this case anyway) could "sense" the invading presence and its associated powers?

 

[water_seeker]

I'm not sure about the Senssing bit, i know Warders do, and i assume that was from the bonding weave used not a thing of the OP, as to AS sensing or having a defence mechanism, thats on seen in tEotW it isnt mentioned anywhere else, all of the other conflicts with shadowspawn dont mention the sensing (AFAIK in any case) I just put their sensing down to a ward type thing that warns them of Shadowspawn. Also, a point that i have just thought of, the DO was bound outside of the pattern, so woudlnt it make sense that the OP, "the Driving force of the Wheel" (in this case anyway) could "sense" the invading presence and its associated powers?

 

 

I'm sure this is wrong.  I remember Rand sensing shadowspawn a number of times.

[Dreamwalker]

The neutrality of the OP does not rule it out as being the Creator's/Light's power. Essentially, in the WoTverse freedom/neutrality/balance is "good" or the "Light" whereas domination is evil - you can see this in the very laws of nature. The Pattern (which was made by the Creator) causes good and bad things to happen and involves creation and destruction because what is natural or "good" is balance - this is why Rand's ta'veren affect causes both positive and negative things to happen. So the Creator allows anyone to tap his power (including the Forsaken and anyone doing evil things with it) with complete equality and neutrality because he is all about freedom - which is also why he'll take no part.

[Luckers]

I'm not sure about the Senssing bit, i know Warders do, and i assume that was from the bonding weave used not a thing of the OP, as to AS sensing or having a defence mechanism, thats on seen in tEotW it isnt mentioned anywhere else, all of the other conflicts with shadowspawn dont mention the sensing (AFAIK in any case) I just put their sensing down to a ward type thing that warns them of Shadowspawn. Also, a point that i have just thought of, the DO was bound outside of the pattern, so woudlnt it make sense that the OP, "the Driving force of the Wheel" (in this case anyway) could "sense" the invading presence and its associated powers?

 

 

The sensing is referenced at each stage throughout the series where shadowspawn are around channelers except for a few instances like the Draghkar attack on Moiraine in tGH, and in those instances the oddity is commented on by characters, and the conclusion drawn that the Shadowspawn were warded against channelers sensing them.

 

The most recent reference to this occurs in KoD during the attack on Algarin's manor.

 

The protection from illness is also referenced, albeit it not as often as the sensing of Shadowspawn. The most recent reference I recall was in CoT.

[FarShainMael]

The neutrality of the OP does not rule it out as being the Creator's/Light's power. Essentially, in the WoTverse freedom/neutrality/balance is "good" or the "Light" whereas domination is evil - you can see this in the very laws of nature. The Pattern (which was made by the Creator) causes good and bad things to happen and involves creation and destruction because what is natural or "good" is balance - this is why Rand's ta'veren affect causes both positive and negative things to happen. So the Creator allows anyone to tap his power (including the Forsaken and anyone doing evil things with it) with complete equality and neutrality because he is all about freedom - which is also why he'll take no part.

 

^^^^ I like!!

 

[Ishmayl]

The neutrality of the OP does not rule it out as being the Creator's/Light's power. Essentially, in the WoTverse freedom/neutrality/balance is "good" or the "Light" whereas domination is evil - you can see this in the very laws of nature. The Pattern (which was made by the Creator) causes good and bad things to happen and involves creation and destruction because what is natural or "good" is balance - this is why Rand's ta'veren affect causes both positive and negative things to happen. So the Creator allows anyone to tap his power (including the Forsaken and anyone doing evil things with it) with complete equality and neutrality because he is all about freedom - which is also why he'll take no part.

 

^^^^ I like!!

 

 

Ditto, especially the part where, if you break things down, the Creator stands for free will (whether good or ill), and the Dark One stands for subjugation/enslavement.

[Kaznen]

The neutrality of the OP does not rule it out as being the Creator's/Light's power. Essentially, in the WoTverse freedom/neutrality/balance is "good" or the "Light" whereas domination is evil - you can see this in the very laws of nature. The Pattern (which was made by the Creator) causes good and bad things to happen and involves creation and destruction because what is natural or "good" is balance - this is why Rand's ta'veren affect causes both positive and negative things to happen. So the Creator allows anyone to tap his power (including the Forsaken and anyone doing evil things with it) with complete equality and neutrality because he is all about freedom - which is also why he'll take no part.

 

^^^^ I like!!

 

 

Ditto, especially the part where, if you break things down, the Creator stands for free will (whether good or ill), and the Dark One stands for subjugation/enslavement.

No, if the DO wins the pattern will end.  The world will end.  The universe will end.  It will be the end of all existence.

 

Not a unending reign of the DO acting as the Creator and the Creator imprisoned outside of time.  Just because the DFs think it is doesn't make it so.  Mordin explained this to Rand and Min and Caddy were talking about it at the end of tGS.  Something tells me the Father of Lies doesn't plan to keep his bargains.

 

The things of balance that Rand and the other two effect is not a matter of good or evil.  Death is not evil, just murder.  Some experience fair fortune others ill, but fortune fair or ill is not good or evil.

 

If death was evil, period, then we would all be committing terrible crimes against nature every time we used mouth wash and brushed our teeth.  Millions of micro organisms are dying when we do.

 

Because more is on the line then a few dead flowers in the Creator's garden, when whats at stake is his garden, fields, house, and his little dog too it is time to get involved and how he can get involved is by giving Rand the DP. 

 

 

[Durinax]

I almost wouldnt buy the DO completely destroying everything because by doing that he would be destroying himself

[MikeRiley]

The Dark One wouldn't destroy himself by destroying the pattern. He is outside it.

[Dreamwalker]

The neutrality of the OP does not rule it out as being the Creator's/Light's power. Essentially, in the WoTverse freedom/neutrality/balance is "good" or the "Light" whereas domination is evil - you can see this in the very laws of nature. The Pattern (which was made by the Creator) causes good and bad things to happen and involves creation and destruction because what is natural or "good" is balance - this is why Rand's ta'veren affect causes both positive and negative things to happen. So the Creator allows anyone to tap his power (including the Forsaken and anyone doing evil things with it) with complete equality and neutrality because he is all about freedom - which is also why he'll take no part.

 

^^^^ I like!!

 

 

Ditto, especially the part where, if you break things down, the Creator stands for free will (whether good or ill), and the Dark One stands for subjugation/enslavement.

No, if the DO wins the pattern will end.  The world will end.  The universe will end.  It will be the end of all existence.

 

Not a unending reign of the DO acting as the Creator and the Creator imprisoned outside of time.  Just because the DFs think it is doesn't make it so.  Mordin explained this to Rand and Min and Caddy were talking about it at the end of tGS.  Something tells me the Father of Lies doesn't plan to keep his bargains.

 

The things of balance that Rand and the other two effect is not a matter of good or evil.  Death is not evil, just murder.  Some experience fair fortune others ill, but fortune fair or ill is not good or evil.

 

If death was evil, period, then we would all be committing terrible crimes against nature every time we used mouth wash and brushed our teeth.  Millions of micro organisms are dying when we do.

 

Because more is on the line then a few dead flowers in the Creator's garden, when whats at stake is his garden, fields, house, and his little dog too it is time to get involved and how he can get involved is by giving Rand the DP.  

 

 

 

I understand that the Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, but what I was saying is his means to achieve that end are, in effect subjugation and domination, the lack of free will. The Dark One wants to extinguish all other life, denying everyone the right to even exist - is this not the ultimate act of subjugation?

 

Further I did not say anything about death being bad or evil, because I agree, death is necessary and it is crucial to balance - in fact I pointed out the same thing that you said about Rand's ta'veren effect causing both "positive" and "negative" events (at least positive or negative from the point of view of the people experiencing them) being actually overall neutral, but in WoT the Creator is not "good" in the classical sense, rather he is neutral because he is all about balance and free will in the way he operates. This is why the Creator will not get involved and why there is no separate "divine power" because the One Power, in all its neutrality, IS the Creator's power.

[FarShainMael]

I  understand that the Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, but what I was saying is his means to achieve that end are, in effect subjugation and domination, the lack of free will. The Dark One wants to extinguish all other life, denying everyone the right to even exist - is this not the ultimate act of subjugation?

 

Not if people aren't alive to know they're bring subjugated, perhaps..

 

Though I agree with you that Creator=freedom and DO=domination, I think there may still be room for a Light Power. If the DO succeeds in establishing total domination, it is conceivable that It may be able to deny access to the True Source, and therefore prevent channelling altogether. (How total is 'total'?) I'm not sure what will happen then, though we have seen one clash between OP and TP, when Rand met Moridin and their balefire streams crossed; but I suspect that if the Creator is going to intervene - and the closing lines of tGS are suggestive to say the least - it would be under those conditions, to allow His Champion to challenge the DO's domination, and free up the TS once more.

 

[Cirin]

When considering the reasons behind the Dark One wanting to destroy the pattern, it is perhaps better to think of it as Creator = Creation, Dark One = Destruction.  The Creator creates (go figure) and the Dark One tries to destroy.  This is not an uncommon dualist viewpoint, and even has elements of it at work in Hinduism, etc.  I agree that the Creator allows for free will to govern, particularly since he takes no part in the conflicts, etc. allowing the Pattern he created to defend itself with ta'veren, etc. but ultimately, I get the feeling that the universe that RJ created is truly cyclical, and that even if the pattern was destroyed, the Creator would create a new one, and seal the Dark One from it.

[FarShainMael]

Might this be the cataclysm at the end of the 7th Age/start of next 1st Age? I'm certain there has to be one, hence why it's the last Age of the Turning.

 

[Naffy]

Might this be the cataclysm at the end of the 7th Age/start of next 1st Age? I'm certain there has to be one, hence why it's the last Age of the Turning.

 

There is no last turning.  The 7th age is only known as the 7th age by some.  There are neither beginnings nor endings, though it is a ending.

[FarShainMael]

:P

 

Hey, I didn't say 'the last Turning', I said the 'last Age of the Turning'. As Saturday is called the last day of the week (by some!)

 

 

[Naffy]

:P

 

Hey, I didn't say 'the last Turning', I said the 'last Age of the Turning'. As Saturday is called the last day of the week (by some!)

 

 

There are no first or last ages of the turning, but it was an age. ;D

[FarShainMael]

:P  :P  :P

 

[MikeRiley]

There is no first age, just as there's no 7th age. People in the "first" age will have at least a dim memory of the age before, so they'll believe they are the second at least. Just like the 7th agers wouldn't have knowledge of 6 ages, just maybe the last 2 - like it is with this current setting. There are 7 ages but none of them are numbered. One just happens to come after the other.

[Dragan]

The True Power Extends from the Dark One Himself as almost an extension of his being he can allow access to it or not i believe he didn't want Al'Thor dead yet and Semirhage would have certainly killed him given the chance for what she endured. As with the Dark Ones counter stroke of Tainting Saidin i believe he punished Semirhage for her actions against Al'Thor. But over all i would assume that the ability to touch the True Source would be like submitting to the Dark One.