Fortuona on a leash

[Diederichos]

This is in response to Dida in the previous page.

 

Almurat Mor will not go against Tuon for the simple reason that she's the Empress. There are no checks and balances in the Seanchan because everything, /everything/ is under the control of the Empress. This isn't a democracy, and you don't on the one hand insist to pray to the head honcho, and on the other hand try and limit said-head honcho's power. Individual seekers can betray, as Almurat himself said. Also, the Seekers and Listeners do not know that sul'dam can be leashed and lastly, it is beyond ridiculous to think that anyone would ask Tuon to put on an a'dam, she's the empress for god sakes.

 

As for the point that Seekers could suspect the heir to the Empire, well only on the Empress' prompting could they do anything about that. If the High Lord kiss the ground at the DotNM's arrival, one can assume that that's a step removed from the Empress with all that that implies.

 

So, to sum up, no, none of that will ever happen.

 

Edit: And regarding the authority to remove an Empress, that does not exist. Imperial Justice is derived from the Emperor/ress, the Empress in effect stands outside of the law.

[Durinax]

wasnt there a pov of tuon when she said that the royal court was shocked that she wanted to be tested for suldam, and she was allowed to by silence

[Cirin]

Yeah, there was, although the sul'dam testing is not really the same as damane testing.  I think they were more shocked by it because it's like the Princess saying she wants to train horses (in fact, that's the comparison Tuon makes in that same paragraph), which is not very princess-like.

[jadelollipop]

I don't have my books handy but I have always wondered about the Seanchan that met up with Rand and Aviendha on their Seanchan escapade.  At least one was a Seeker, IIRC, and Aviendha told Rand in her hearing that the Sul'dam as well as the damane were shielded or could channel...enough to make her suspicious.  I have wondered if this is one of the events that led to the revolt in Seanchan...Law of Unintended Consequences and all....

[Durinax]

I don't have my books handy but I have always wondered about the Seanchan that met up with Rand and Aviendha on their Seanchan escapade.  At least one was a Seeker, IIRC, and Aviendha told Rand in her hearing that the Sul'dam as well as the damane were shielded or could channel...enough to make her suspicious.  I have wondered if this is one of the events that led to the revolt in Seanchan...Law of Unintended Consequences and all....

probably not, just the fact that most of the ruling nobles where brutally slaughtered at once caused that

[Lambada]

Hmm...

 

(Note this only applies to the Empress and not a DotNM

 

With regards to the Empress being collared, I would question not whether it is legally possible, but whether anyone would want to. All the information we have suggests that the Empress spends a heck of a lot of time sitting on the Crystal Throne.

We know that the Throne is a ter'angreal which gives people a sense of over-whelming awe. Given this effect, is it not possible that the thought of collaring the Empress would immediately vanish perhaps like then thinking - "How could I ever have thought of trying to collar someone who is surely The Creators messenger?".

 

I think it would take someone extremely strong willed (as Tuon was when meeting Rand) to resist that effect. Perhaps a ta'veren might be able to.......

 

Of course, when she's not sitting on the Throne then all bets are off. But I think it is pretty certain that very few people would even want to try to collar the Empress whilst she is sitting on the throne.

 

Now, what stops someone else sitting on the throne whilst the Empress isn't on it (a very apt question considering the distance between them atm)? I would say that normally the  security of the Empress would, but obviously with the Empire in chaos. I suggest there could be something more to it - that the ter'angreal aspect only works when the person sitting is a channeler (we certainly have enough evidence that all previous Emperors/esses could channel. As such, any non-channeler who tried to sit in it would not bring about awe and would thus promptly be removed (by the security forces, or by other opponents.

 

If this is the case, then it would be very symbolic that a culture that despises channelers only has a secure empire whilst a channeler is at the top.

 

Thus, all Fortuona needs to do, is nip across by Travelling, and sit in the Throne. Thus no-one could collar her, even if they wanted to (with the ta'veren exception I previously mentioned)...

 

Thoughts?

[Diederichos]

It's highly unlikely that each and every person who has sat on the throne for the past thousand years just happened to be a channeler, that's taking coincidence and odds to an extreme.

[singogreatest360]

 

Thus, all Fortuona needs to do, is nip across by Travelling, and sit in the Throne. Thus no-one could collar her, even if they wanted to (with the ta'veren exception I previously mentioned)...

 

Thoughts?

 

I'm pretty sure it only works when she is sitting on it

 

Almurat Mor will not go against Tuon for the simple reason that she's the Empress.

 

In Real life history there have been coups, in cultures which the people believed the Ruler WAS GOD.

 

Edit: And regarding the authority to remove an Empress, that does not exist. Imperial Justice is derived from the Emperor/ress, the Empress in effect stands outside of the law.

 

1 Fortuona is Empress.

2 A Damane is damane. Nothing more.

3 A Damane is given a new name.

4 This wouldn't even be considered a coup. In Seanchan way of thinking making Fortuona damane would have nothing to do with removing her from the Throne. It'd be just an effect of leashing a damane, No different than leashing someones wife or mother.

Two of them had died in those struggles, so far, and three had tried to kill her. A sister and a brother had been made da’covale and had their names stricken from the records as firmly as if it had been discovered they could channel. Her place was far from secure even now. A single misstep could see her dead, or worse, stripped and sold on the public block. Blessings of the Light, when she smiled, she still looked sixteen! At best!

 

Source: Winter's Heart, Chapter 14 "What a Veil Hides" - Tuon point of view, her thoughts, with Selucia in her private room on the 'Victory of Kidron'

[Cirin]

Although, as Tuon said, being able to channel and actually channeling are two different things - since she is just one that can "learn" to channel, that makes her a sul'dam, not a damane.  Yes, they could leash all the sul'dam as well as the damane, but then there's no one to control the damane, so it becomes a moot point.  If she does get leashed, I doubt it will be for being a damane, but rather because someone will discover that the collars work on sul'dam as well and will use that to their advantage.

[Morsker]

I agree with singogreatest360 that the WH quote shows even the Empress' children are tested for being damane, and subject to the normal treatment. Surely the rest of the Blood are as well. I can see the Empress decreeing herself exempt from testing, but if someone got a collar on her anyway, and it worked, she'd be considered dead, and couldn't order her way out of the situation.

 

I don't think it will come to leashing her though, or at least it would be unnecessarily dramatic. Unless Egwene is a complete airhead, the first thing she's going to do in retaliation is spread propaganda about sul'dam, and Fortuona will have to deal with it.

[Lambada]

 

Thus, all Fortuona needs to do, is nip across by Travelling, and sit in the Throne. Thus no-one could collar her, even if they wanted to (with the ta'veren exception I previously mentioned)...

 

Thoughts?

 

I'm pretty sure it only works when she is sitting on it

 

Yes - that was the entire point of my post :/

 

That's why I specifically said how she had to get the throne somehow. Something which seems quite likely to happen given the Seanchan prophecies.

[Durinax]

OK how bout this rand goes and gets the crystal throne, and gets another meeting with tuon and comes up to her like on 300, with hundreds of slaves carrying this massive throne

[Diederichos]

There is a difference between the Empress and the DotNM, the Empress is the next thing to the creator. This isn't Japan where the Emperor was a figurehead and the higher nobility gave crap about it, this is Seanchan where even most of the High Blood sweat bullets at displeasing her. Look at Suroth's thoughts, Tuon she has zero problems going against, but her end point is to succeed the Empress, not to overthrow her.

 

It's beyond farfetched to say that someone would even have the gall to ask Tuon to try the test, that's the sort of thing that is never contemplated let alone done. There are things that are just not thought of, it'd be the equivalent of me going to the President of the States in 1970 and calling him a soviet spy. I speak of normal seanchan here, not darkfriends.

[singogreatest360]

Thus, all Fortuona needs to do, is nip across by Travelling, and sit in the Throne. Thus no-one could collar her, even if they wanted to (with the ta'veren exception I previously mentioned)...

 

Thoughts?

 

I'm pretty sure it only works when she is sitting on it

 

Yes - that was the entire point of my post :/

 

That's why I specifically said how she had to get the throne somehow. Something which seems quite likely to happen given the Seanchan prophecies.

 

I doubt she will eat, sleep and bath in the thing.

[Cirin]

I doubt she will eat, sleep and bath in the thing.

 

She could.  We don't know that the Empress ever actually has to leave that darned chair.  That's what servants are for!

[wvlr2]

I doubt she will eat, sleep and bath in the thing.

 

She could.  We don't know that the Empress ever actually has to leave that darned chair.  That's what servants are for!

Now we know why it's called a THRONE! :o

[Dida]

Although, as Tuon said, being able to channel and actually channeling are two different things - since she is just one that can "learn" to channel, that makes her a sul'dam, not a damane.

 

 Tuon opening admitted to Mat Cauthon being able to "see weaves" of the power melting when the tried to touch him. (KoD) And then Tuon has a "slowed" appearance which occurs in women who have already channeling themselves previously.  

 

 Tuon is the same chronological age as Talaan din Gelyn, and both women appear physically to be the same age--less than sixteen at best.

 

 Sul'dam do not have a "Slowed" appearance as they do not channel the Power themselves, but Tuon already has a "Slowed" appearance which directly implies she already has channeled the Power.

 

 

 As for the Crystal Throne itself, it is unknown whether or not a Empress is required to channel for the properties of the ter'angreal to 'awe' individuals?  Otherwise, should not a common servant be able to 'awe' others if they were on the throne?  

 

 

I agree with singogreatest360 that the WH quote shows even the Empress' children are tested for being damane, and subject to the normal treatment. Surely the rest of the Blood are as well.

 

 Tuon was denied any testing of the a'dam as a minor in age.  That directly implies that no child of the Empress is tested with the a'dam, unless those children have literally screwed up and have opening Channeled the Power in front of individuals--Listeners, Seekers, other High Bloods' Hand.  Empress can be forced by Seanchan norms to lose children as heirs to the throne, if they openly channel. But if a heir is protected by gaining Sul'dam training, who's to tell if Tuon herself channels?  As an damane would be holding the power right next to her.

 

 

 

  Separately, that Seeker ordered by Lord Turak to investigate Suroth as a danger to the Crystal Throne knows who Juilin is.   In fact, that pale-hair fellow run into Juilin in Tanchico no less:

 

When Juilin came back, a good three hours after sunset, spinning a thumb-thick staff of ridged wood and muttering about some pale-haired fellow who had tried to rob him, Thom and Domon were already slumped disconsolately at the table with Egeanin.

 

“This will be Falme again,” Domon growled at the air. The stout cudgel he had acquired somewhere lay in front of him, and he wore a short sword at his belt now. “Aes Sedai. The Black Ajah. Meddling with the Panarch. If we do no find something tomorrow, I do mean to take myself out of Tanchico. The next day for certain, if my own sister do ask me to stay!”

 

 

Source: The Shadow Rising, book 4, Chapter 51 “Revelations in Tanchico” - Elayne point of view, with Juilin, Nynaeve, Thom, Egeanin, Domon at Three Plum Court Inn in the city of Tanchico

 

 

 It should be a piece of cake for this pale-haired Seeker to connect Juilin to freeing Amathera in Ebou Dar, on the very night Tuon disappeared.  Just as it should be a relatively easily for this Seeker to connect Juilin, Amathera, Tuon, Selucia, Teslyn, Domon, Mat to Sul'dam Renna death just outside of the Seanchan garrison of Coramen.  Ditto, for that same Seeker to learning that Mat purchased silk for Tuon & Selucia in Jurador.

 

 

 "Getting close, now," the fat man muttered. He did not sound happy, though.

 

 Then they rounded a hill, and there was another low bridge ahead. Beyond, the road twisted north to cross the next ridge through a saddle. The sun, sitting atop the ridge, blazed in their eyes. Coramen lay on the other side of that ridge. Pulling his hat low for shade, Mat searched the road for a woman, for anyone, mounted or afoot, and his heart sank.

Vanin cursed and pointed.

 

 A lathered bay was laboring its way up the slope on the other side of the river, a woman frantically kicking its flanks, urging it to climb. Renna had been too anxious to reach the Seanchan to stick with the road. She was maybe two hundred paces from them, and she might as well have been miles. Her mount was on the point of collapsing, but she could get down and run within sight of the garrisons before they could reach her. All she had to do was reach the crest, another fifty feet.

 

 "My Lord?" Harnan said. He had an arrow nocked and his bow half raised. Gorderan held the heavy crossbow to his shoulder, a thick pointed bolt in place.

Mat felt something flicker and die inside him. He did not know what. Something. The dice rolled like thunder. "Shoot," he said.

 

 He wanted to close his eyes. The crossbow snapped; the bolt made a black streak through the air. Renna slammed forward when it hit her back. She had almost managed to push herself erect against the bay's neck when Harnan's arrow took her.

 

 Slowly, she toppled from the horse, sliding down the slope, rolling, bouncing off saplings, tumbling faster and faster until she splashed into the stream. For a moment, she floated facedown against the bank, and then the current caught her and pulled her away, skirts billowing up on the water. Slowly she drifted toward the Elbar. Maybe, eventually, she would reach the sea. And that made three. It hardly seemed to matter that the dice had stopped. That made three. Never again, he thought as Renna floated out of sight around a bend. If I die for it, never again.

 

 

Source: The Crossroads at Twilight, book 10, Chapter 29 "Something Flickers" - Mat Cauthon point of view, with Domon, Egeanin, Tuon/Fortuona, Selucia, Valan Luca, Latelle Luca, Juilin, Tesyln along others in scene; at Luca's Circus just outside the town of Jurador in Altara.

 

 

 Recall that Teslyn openly healed Egeanin without hiding her face in front of all the Circus individuals?  And Domon loudly speaking Renna's name?  

 

 That gossip is going to escape, and be found out when the Seanchan soldiers & Seekers begin to investigate Renna's death.  This is going to lead to individuals recalling with was there at the same of Egeanin's healing--Tuon and Selucia.

 

 Tuon, Selucia seen meeting with Aes Sedai, at the Circus just outside of the town of Jurador?  An Aes Sedai who escaped the Ebou Dar Palace, Tessi. An Aes Sedai seen without an a'dam around her neck.  

 

 

 The man gave a start when Tuon and Selucia hurried up, and looked on the point of telling them to go, too, before he thought better of it. In fact, he began to frown thoughtfully. And worriedly. It seemed his wife had not told him about Mat and the women leaving the show, and it was clear they had been somewhere. The blue-eyed woman had the huge bundle of cloth on her back now, with her arms doubled behind her, though she stood straight despite the bulk. You would think a lady’s maid was used to carrying things, but her face was a picture of frustrated irritation. Latelle eyed her up and down, then sneered at Mat as if he were the reason the woman was thrusting her considerable bosom out. Luca’s wife was very good at sneering, yet Tuon’s stern expression made Latelle nearly look mild. A judge peered out of her cowl, a judge ready to pass sentence.

 

 For the moment, Mat did not care what the women thought.

 

 Those bloody dice. Tossing his cloak back, he went to one knee and touched fingers to Egeanin’s throat. Her pulse beat weakly, thin and fluttering.

 

 “What happened?” he asked. “Have you sent for one of the sisters?” Moving Egeanin might be enough to kill her, but there might be time for Healing, if the Aes Sedai were quick. He was not about to say that name aloud, though, with people walking by, pausing for curious stares before Luca or Latelle hurried them on. Everyone moved quicker for her than for him. Latelle herself was the only one who really jumped for Luca.

 

 “Renna!” Domon spat the name. Despite his short cap of hair and that Illianer beard that left his upper lip bare, he did not look ridiculous, now. He looked afraid and murderous, a dangerous combination. “I did see her stab Egeanin in the back and run. If I could have reached her, I would have broken her neck, but my hand be all that’s holding Egeanin’s blood in. Where be that bloody Aes Sedai?” he snarled. So much for being careful with his tongue.

 

 “I be right here, Bayle Domon,” Teslyn announced coldly, rushing up with Thera, who took one horrified look at Tuon and Selucia and latched on to Juilin’s arm with a squeak, eyes on the ground. The way she began trembling, she might be there herself in a minute.

 

 The hard-eyed Aes Sedai made a face as if she had a mouthful of briars when she saw what lay in front of her, or maybe where it lay, but she swiftly crouched underneath the wagon beside Domon and clasped Egeanin’s head in her bony hands. “Joline do be better at this than I,” she muttered, halt under her breath, “but I may be able—”

 

 The silver foxhead went cold against Mat’s chest, and Egeanin jerked so violently that her wig fell off, nearly pulling herself out of Domon’s grasp as her eyes popped open wide. The convulsion lasted only long enough for her to sit halfway up with a frozen gasp; then she slumped back against Domon’s chest, panting, and the medallion became just a piece of worked silver again. He was almost accustomed to that. He hated being accustomed to that.

 

 Teslyn slumped, too, on the point of falling over until Domon shifted his grip on Egeanin to steady the Aes Sedai with one hand.

 

 “Thank you,” Teslyn said after a moment, the words sounding dragged from her. “But I need no help.” She used the side of the wagon to help her rise, though, her cold Aes Sedai gaze daring anyone to comment. “The blade did slide on a rib and so did miss her heart. All she does need now be rest and food.”

 

 She had not delayed to grab a cloak, Mat realized. In one direction along the narrow street, a clutch of women in spangled cloaks was watching from in front of a green-striped tent, their gazes intent and focused. In the other, half a dozen men and women in white-striped coats and tight breeches, acrobats who performed on horseback, darted looks toward Teslyn between putting their heads together to whisper. Too late to worry about someone recognizing an Aes Sedai’s face. Too late to worry that one of them knew Healing when he saw it done. The dice battered at the inside of Mat’s head. They had not stopped; the game was not played out, yet.

 

 “Who’s looking for her, Juilin?” he asked. “Juilin?”

 

 The thief-catcher gave over glaring at Tuon and Selucia and murmuring to Thera, though he continued to pat the trembling woman. “Vanin and the Redarms, Lopin and Nerim. Olver, too. He was away before I could catch him. But in this . . . ” He stopped soothing Thera long enough to gesture toward the main street. The babble of voices was clearly audible even at this distance. “All she needs is to lay hands on one of those fancy cloaks, and she can slip out with the first folk to leave. If we try stopping every woman with her hood up, or even try looking inside, we’ll have a riot on our hands. These people are touchy.”

 

 

Source: The Crossroads at Twilight, book 10, Chapter 29 "Something Flickers" - Mat Cauthon point of view, with Domon, Egeanin, Tuon/Fortuona, Selucia, Valan Luca, Latelle Luca, Juilin, Tesyln along others in scene; at Luca's Circus just outside the town of Jurador in Altara.

 

 

 Will Tuon be charged with freeing a damane?

 Will Tuon be charged with ordering a murder a Sul'dam?

 Will Tuon be charged with associating with Aes Sedai?

 Will Tuon be seen as a marath'damane by a pale-haired, blue-eyed Seeker?

 

 Yes.

 Yes.

 Yes.

 Yes.

 

 Empress Fortuona is in deep water up to her neck, in the eyes of this Seeker ordered by Lord Turak to watch Suroth for danger to the Empire itself.

 

 Yes, this Seeker already suspects a worm's head higher than Suroth in rank, as a danger to the Empire.  That dangerous individual is Tuon, now known as Empress Fortuona.  

 

 Egeanin was right that pale-haired, blue-eyed man should have been killed by Elayne, Nynaeve, Thom, Juilin and Domon in tFoH book.  Seeker 'Mor' is ironically enough a danger to the Empire itself, by believing Tuon ultimately set-up the murders of Lord Turak, Renna among other charges.  Lord Turak's old Seeker is going to end siding with General Galgan faction ... that coming action is a danger to the Empire & personally to Fortuona.

 

 

  Suroth's own thoughts tie General Galgan words, with wanting to become Emperor:

 

"You commanded the Forerunners, who have been subsumed into the Return," he replied calmly, and and Suroth tasted bitterness.  The news from the Empire had emboldened him.  With the Empress dead, Galgan intended to make himself the first Emperor in nine hundred years.

 

 

Source: Knife of Dreams, book 11, Chapter "Remember The Old Saying" - Suroth point of view, with General Galgan, Efraim Yamada in the Ebou Dar

 

 Lord Turak's Seeker 'Mor' would have to be blind to miss Galgan's ambitions, to become Emperor.

[Luckers]

Give over Dida. Fortuona cannot and has never channeled. She could learn to if she so chose, but she does not.

[Graveyardhag]

@Dida:

You are still taking one statement to mean something else.

Nowhere is it said that the imperial family are not tested with the a'dam. It simply says that testing for sul'dam was  only allowed by the empresses silence. Which means it isn't normal practice for the imperial family to test for being a sul'dam

They are not normally tested for sul'dam does not equal they are not tested for being damane.

You cannot take a statement about one thing and apply it to everything else connected to it.

[farthammer]

Heh if Tuons account of how competitive her siblings are/were, the idea of having one of them trying to go after being their own sul`dam might be a little hair raising in terms of violence potential.

[singogreatest360]

I agree with singogreatest360 that the WH quote shows even the Empress' children are tested for being damane, and subject to the normal treatment. Surely the rest of the Blood are as well. I can see the Empress decreeing herself exempt from testing, but if someone got a collar on her anyway, and it worked, she'd be considered dead, and couldn't order her way out of the situation.

 

You misunderstood me friend. I believe the imperial family aren't regularly tested for damane or sul'dam.

 

Unless Egwene is a complete airhead, the first thing she's going to do in retaliation is spread propaganda about sul'dam, and Fortuona will have to deal with it.

 

Agreed. Though i believe wool-head is the proper insult.

[Charlz Guybon]

Although, as Tuon said, being able to channel and actually channeling are two different things - since she is just one that can "learn" to channel, that makes her a sul'dam, not a damane. 

 

  Tuon opening admitted to Mat Cauthon being able to "see weaves" of the power melting when the tried to touch him. (KoD)

 

I do believe that this means she used the a'dam enough that if she was collared the a'dam would hold her, but that's it. She hasn't actually channeled yet.

[Dida]

Fortuona cannot and has never channeled. She could learn to if she so chose, but she does not.

 

 Prove it, Luckers. Good luck trying.

 

 

Although, as Tuon said, being able to channel and actually channeling are two different things - since she is just one that can "learn" to channel, that makes her a sul'dam, not a damane.

 

 Tuon opening admitted to Mat Cauthon being able to "see weaves" of the power melting when the tried to touch him. (KoD)

 

I do believe that this means she used the a'dam enough that if she was collared the a'dam would hold her, but that's it. She hasn't actually channeled yet.

 

Tuon has a "slowed appearance" and admits to "reading weaves of the power".  

 

Recall that Aes Sedai need to see the weaves or folds of the power to channel, whether female or male channelers.  Tuon far ahead of Bethamin is reading weaves of the power, if one compares Bethamin's thoughts to Tuon's own words to Mat Cauthon on this topic.  

 

Tuon's a Sparker who has channeled before.

 

Even Tuon's General Karede admitted it's common knowledge that Tuon does not need a der’sul’dam to help her with damane.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers

Fortuona cannot and has never channeled. She could learn to if she so chose, but she does not.

 

  Prove it, Luckers. Good luck trying.

 

Alright. Channelers don't sense her.

 

Wow. That was hard.

 

 

[Netizen]

*sigh*

 

I would *so* enjoy seeing Fortuona on the arse-end of an a'dam.