A New Verinism--Tomas.

[MikeRiley]

We know the Black Ajah is set up in hearts and their warders would probably know something of what's going on, so there would have to be a way to keep a reign on them. Perhaps "with family" means he's with some darkfriend warders? Of course, he couldn't kill them without tipping off the Black sisters in the tower.

 

I'm just thinking that Tomas wasn't likely to have family in Tar Valon and his "last hour" suggests Verin timed Egwene's return to her room very well or else just left Tomas somewhere.

[Random Man]

Actually that reminds me of those letters she was giving people.  They would've had to been written before before she poisoned herself.  If she couldn't yet betray the DO that at least removes the possibility those instructions result in any direct strike against the shadow.

 

Well, the tome she gave Egwene was an obvious betrayal -- at least, that was certainly her intention when she wrote it -- and she couldn't have written it in her last hour. That shows that she very well could have written instructions that betrayed the Shadow before her last hour, as long as she could be certain they weren't revealed until her last hour or later (or certain enough in her own mind to satisfy the oaths that still bound her). Although, if I remember right, the timeline that's been established by Brandon is that Verin poisoned herself 30 days after giving the letter to Mat, which meant he COULD have read the instructions as early as 20 days before her death -- or is this why the 30-day compromise was necessary for her? Was she betting that Mat wouldn't open it until after the time was up, thinking that since he waited the 30 days he wouldn't be bound to do what the letter says? She was obviously pushing for more time with Mat. The compromise she struck may have established the upper limit of how much time she had left to finish up what she'd started. If Mat had agreed to her first option (the ten day mark) would she have offed herself earlier?

 

Good eye on catching the quote, though -- "family" and "his family" are not necessarily the same thing. I can think of plenty of people who are family even though they're not "my" family.

 

We know the Black Ajah is set up in hearts and their warders would probably know something of what's going on, so there would have to be a way to keep a reign on them. Perhaps "with family" means he's with some darkfriend warders? Of course, he couldn't kill them without tipping off the Black sisters in the tower.

 

I was just writing the same thing while you posted that. Hmm. Maybe he was spending his last hour with his DF "family?" Making sure it was their last hour as well? Oh, to be a fly on the wall at that reunion....

 

But I trust Verin's dying confession to Eg mainly because a good deal of it has already been verified with the rooting out of so many BA sisters.

 

THe DO doesn't seem to have any problem sacrificing his followers, even relatively more valuable ones.  There isn't a great deal of respect for power strength of modern AS and specifically black ajah.

 

True. And there where a number of BA that had escaped the purge, somewhere between 60-80. With the majority of those from within the Tower itself, Verin's place of death. hmmm… seems I need to think on this a bit more.

 

But, dang it, I still think it'd be cool to see Thomas help out Mat. ;)

 

I don't buy that Verin's outing of the BA was a setup. We know that the BA members she outed were actual BA members. What would the Shadow have to gain from such a sacrifice of its members? We're not just talking about the 50-60 BA sisters that were executed. The organization has been expelled from the Tower. I don't see where the net gain would be to justify making such a trade.

 

It's much more likely that Alviarin (or possibly Mesaana) had someone watching the rebels to deliver reports. It could be as simple as a DF stablehand or a DF among the rebel soldiers. The BA set policy based on the workings of the legitimate Ajahs and the Hall, and were obviously playing on both sides of the WT schism, so Alviarin would have eyes and ears to help her get information. Egwene made no attempt to cover up why the BA sisters were being executed -- to the contrary, it was publicly stated. There was enough time between the rebel AS purge and the reunification for word to get to Alviarin from her spy. Alviarin knows the names of every BA sister -- and there's a secret hand sign for them to identify one another -- so, in a panic, she'd be able to get the word out to most of those in the Tower in the intervening hours. The BA sitters in the Tower Hall were already gone by the reunification, so unless it was a coincidence that they were missing, they'd already been alerted and skedaddled. It would be unlikely she'd have had enough time to alert them all, even if she was ignoring her usual care and was going straight to them -- she'd still have to be careful enough to not be overheard (or for anyone to whom she delegated the alert process to be overheard). A few stragglers were left behind.

[Morsker]

"A curious hole in the oaths," Verin said softly. "To allow one to effect a betrayal in the final hour of one's life. I cannot help wondering if the Great Lord knows of it. Why wouldn't he close that hole?"

 

Potentially one of the most fascinating questions needing to be answered, the one thing that supposedly allows her to betray the DO, the thing she is ending her life over and she just casually shrugs off finding out?

 

Then again the loophole may just exist so that anyone who tries it just gets set up with another body to be raped by Shadar Haran for an eternity.

 

My theory is that it's a law of nature in this universe that no one can be so far gone to the Shadow that he or she can't come back to the Light again. A permanent, unbreakable oath to the Shadow just wouldn't work. It either wouldn't stick in the first place, or the oath would be removed entirely if the person repented. But the Dark One is a clever lawyer, and found that allotting one hour of betrayal at the cost of death is enough of a loophole to make the oath stick.

 

It's guesswork of course, but I can't think of anything else.

[Luckers]

Another thought that ocurred to me is that I was assuming that if Tomas didn't need to die then Verin was lying about it being his 'last hour'. Possibly he, much like her, is on a suicide mission to strike a blow against the shadow. Hers was made necessary by the Oaths, but his might have been made necessary by the danger of where he was striking or some such.

 

Other than that I like the pick about 'spending his last our with family' as opposed to with 'his family'. We may be looking to closely, but that does make for an interesting point--could other Darkfriends be considered Tomas' family? Maybe he's going about assasinating non-Aes Sedai darkfriends Verin uncovered along the way, or something.

[farthammer]

Or a reference to other Warders, perhaps he's headed up towards Lan.

[CUBAREY]

Well, the tome she gave Egwene was an obvious betrayal --

 

Actually writing the tome itself is not a betrayal especially since its in a cipher and in Verin's possession is harmless. It's only when its given to someone looking for darkfriends that it becomes a betrayal.

[Random Man]

Well, the tome she gave Egwene was an obvious betrayal --

 

Actually writing the tome itself is not a betrayal especially since its in a cipher and in Verin's possession is harmless. It's only when its given to someone looking for darkfriends that it becomes a betrayal.

 

Yes, I agree, which, by extrapolation, suggests that she could also write a letter betraying the DO to someone else as long as she could convince herself that whatever was in it wouldn't be revealed as long as she was still living. It wouldn't be a betrayal, so to speak, until the recipient read it.

"A curious hole in the oaths," Verin said softly. "To allow one to effect a betrayal in the final hour of one's life. I cannot help wondering if the Great Lord knows of it. Why wouldn't he close that hole?"

 

Potentially one of the most fascinating questions needing to be answered, the one thing that supposedly allows her to betray the DO, the thing she is ending her life over and she just casually shrugs off finding out?

 

Then again the loophole may just exist so that anyone who tries it just gets set up with another body to be raped by Shadar Haran for an eternity.

 

My theory is that it's a law of nature in this universe that no one can be so far gone to the Shadow that he or she can't come back to the Light again. A permanent, unbreakable oath to the Shadow just wouldn't work. It either wouldn't stick in the first place, or the oath would be removed entirely if the person repented. But the Dark One is a clever lawyer, and found that allotting one hour of betrayal at the cost of death is enough of a loophole to make the oath stick.

 

It's guesswork of course, but I can't think of anything else.

 

I meant to address this earlier. Verin wouldn't want to go poking her nose into why this loophole exists because to do so might risk alerting someone to her intentions (or even the realization that it exists in the first place). She's not necessarily shrugging it off -- she's reasoned out that the loophole exists and she's making use of it. Demandred's mentioned that the Dark One sometimes astounds him with his ignorance of the world -- which means the DO is not omnipotent, suggesting he doesn't know that this loophole exists. I can't see him willingly letting such a loophole stand if it could be so easily closed, or that -- as the embodiment of paradox and chaos, the destroyer of the Pattern, yada yada -- his Oaths would be held or limited by any natural law of the universe. He's certainly not bound by any other natural laws -- his effect on the Pattern (bubbles of evil, winds blowing against each other, bugs from Shara boiling out of a crack in the ground -- in short -- things that are simply impossible happening) are evidence of that.

 

But yeah, there's probably some nasty torment waiting for Verin in the afterlife at the hands of the DO, unless her actions did manage to win some sort of saving grace we we can only speculate upon that severed her ties to the DO.

[water_seeker]

I think the answer to this is actually very simple.

 

Tomas is Verin's Warder.  As such he gains greater stamina, physical prowess, and a greater resistance to injury (thanks to http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Warder for the wording ;)).

 

Tomas is old, very old.  It is probably due to his Warder bond that he is alive.  Maybe Verin didn't release him from the bond for fear that he would die as soon as he lost the Warder benifits.  Given that Verin would most likely end up dying herself (her only hope was the Oath Rod after all), she would have to assume that Tomas would die shortly after.

[zach]

Well, the tome she gave Egwene was an obvious betrayal --

 

Actually writing the tome itself is not a betrayal especially since its in a cipher and in Verin's possession is harmless. It's only when its given to someone looking for darkfriends that it becomes a betrayal.

 

Thats what i was just thinking. Besides at that point she was just doing research. She didn't actually use it to betray anyone until the moment it was handed over.

[MikeRiley]

Tomas is old, very old.  It is probably due to his Warder bond that he is alive.  Maybe Verin didn't release him from the bond for fear that he would die as soon as he lost the Warder benifits.  Given that Verin would most likely end up dying herself (her only hope was the Oath Rod after all), she would have to assume that Tomas would die shortly after.

 

I really hope that's not the case, but I can see it being true. Dying of old age would just be a very anti-climactic way to go out for somebody who has been through what he has. Rhuarc left the three-fold land because his Wise One wife asked him if he really wanted to die of old age in bed. It wasn't viewed as a great thing for warriors!

 

Which makes me wonder if they Dreamed of Rhuarc's death, but that's another topic entirely.

[GB]

What if Tomas is the 3rd person? though that seems unlikely as Moirane knows Verin's warder. and she says it is someone she doesnt know.

 

would have been cool though if he was the 3rd.lol

[Elend]

Verin implied she had done some very dark deeds in service to the shadow. Tomas was likely involved in at least some of those. I would guess Tomas saw death as the only way to redeem himself; similar to Ingtar. His last hour may not be due to poison, but it could be that as soon as Verin dies and he has the death-rage, he's planning on going on a killing spree against Darkfriends Verin uncovered. Or he will just kill himself, like Verin.

 

In short, Tomas will seek death as redemption for what he has done when Verin dies.

[Random Man]

Verin implied she had done some very dark deeds in service to the shadow. Tomas was likely involved in at least some of those. I would guess Tomas saw death as the only way to redeem himself; similar to Ingtar. His last hour may not be due to poison, but it could be that as soon as Verin dies and he has the death-rage, he's planning on going on a killing spree against Darkfriends Verin uncovered. Or he will just kill himself, like Verin.

 

In short, Tomas will seek death as redemption for what he has done when Verin dies.

 

In one way or another, I'm sure he will. Even if he decided that the best way to make up for what he'd done was keep Verin safe until she acted -- and then follow her to the grave. The fact that he sought redemption is, in itself, a redeeming quality...to some extent. I wouldn't, for example, consider Sheriam's second thoughts for turning to the Shadow as redemptive -- she was just peeved that Tarmon Gai'don had to happen in her lifetime, wanting to have her cake and eat it, too.

 

What's also interesting, though, is that Verin only says that they'd already said goodbye to each other in reference to what Tomas is up to. We don't know how long it's been since they made their farewells, or where she might have bade him goodbye, never mind the possibilities of what she meant by "family." His whereabouts and last actions may very well be the other shoe waiting to drop.

[OptimusPrime]

Dudes. Not been able to read the full thread as Im at work so sorry if this has been said already, but... could Tomas be a channeler also? Reason I thought that was that Verin said the Oaths are particularly binding on channelers, and Tomas was looking for a way out.

[Sentinel78]

"A curious hole in the oaths," Verin said softly. "To allow one to effect a betrayal in the final hour of one's life. I cannot help wondering if the Great Lord knows of it. Why wouldn't he close that hole?"

 

I find it highly unlikely that the Dark One had anything to do with the wording of the oaths sworn by Black Ajah members.  The Oath Rod was rediscovered by 3rd Age Aes Sedai between the Trolloc Wars and the War of a Hundred Years.  In other words, when Ishamael was 'asleep'.  There have been Darkfriends among the Aes Sedai since the Trolloc Wars Ishamael once said.  Thus, it follows that the Black Ajah had at least some members when the Oath Rod was rediscovered and the Three Oaths introduced. 

 

If we make the assumption that the Black Ajah's oath trinity has remained unchanged, it follows that the Black Ajah would have had to come up with the language for their oaths soon after the Three Oaths were introduced, without the help of Ishamael, or else they would have been bound by the Three Oaths or would have lacked the ageless look. 

 

What I'm getting at is the "last hour" language is what happens when laymen (or laywomen) write legally binding contracts without the help of lawyers.  I think it's just human error.

[Elend]

Unless I'm greatly mistaken, wasn't Ishamael capable of interacting with the world every 22 years or something like that? Just his greatest interactions were during the aforementioned times. Not that I necessarily disagree that he had nothing to do with the specific oaths. But I find it strange that a group composed of people essentially out to further their own agenda would take such binding oaths voluntarily. I mean, a running theme in the series is that most who choose evil do so out of selfish reasons, so them voluntarily taking the dark oaths (at least that oath) without coercion from Ishamael strikes me as a bit strange. True believers like Ishamael are rare, even among the Chosen.

[Sentinel78]

Unless I'm greatly mistaken, wasn't Ishamael capable of interacting with the world every 22 years or something like that? Just his greatest interactions were during the aforementioned times. Not that I necessarily disagree that he had nothing to do with the specific oaths. But I find it strange that a group composed of people essentially out to further their own agenda would take such binding oaths voluntarily. I mean, a running theme in the series is that most who choose evil do so out of selfish reasons, so them voluntarily taking the dark oaths (at least that oath) without coercion from Ishamael strikes me as a bit strange. True believers like Ishamael are rare, even among the Chosen.

 

Not every 22 years.  The period at which Ishamael would 'wake up' was every 1000 years.  The duration that he was awake is not entirely clear, but could very well be where you came up with your 22 year figure.  Each time Ishamael was awake he initiated worldwide calamity: (1) Trolloc Wars, (2) Hawkwing infiltration -> War of a Hundred Years -> 2nd doom of Seanchan.  If he woke up every 22 years the world would be in a lot worse shape.

 

Regarding the Black Ajah voluntarily taking Oaths without coercion, remember that they had to take SOME type of Oath just to maintain the ageless look.  That might have taken them a few years to figure out, but if they didn't take any Oaths than you'd be able to visually identify all of the Black Ajah members. Granted, I see your point in the sense that they didn't need to take any dramatic Oaths like the ones Verin is talking about.  Can't answer that one.  Maybe it came later.

[Luckers]

It's not so solid as that. We know that when he was completely and physically free it was for durations of around forty years. When these forty year cycles happened is less certain however--we know, for instance, that he was free to command the Trolloc Wars, and then free to create and organise the Black Ajah less then four hundred years later.

 

The event at Shadar Logoth with him appearing like a flickering mirage is perhaps telling. Clearly times of him being completely and physically free were rare, but that there were other times when he was free enough to still act in the world--not physically free, but still able to assert himself.

[Elend]

I'm not sure where the 22 year figure came from now that I check. From what I've found from a cursory look it appears like he may have around 40 years of being free, and he'd been free for maybe 20 some years at the start of EotW.

 

I must of just made up the shorter cycle. For some reason I thought that he was free every few years, just that every 1000 years he became "more" free.

 

EDIT: Luckers beat me to the forty year figure :(

[Luckers]

I know a couple of others who've thought the 22 year thing--it comes from the idea that Ishamael was active just prior to the beginning of the books, which if we take New Spring means around 22 years ago. This is actually a mistake--Ishamael does not become active till three years after New Spring when he kills Jarna Milari--but the number has hung around.

[Zimlear]

Back to Thomas. One thing that struck me, and that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet, isn't it possible that Verin passed Thomas' bond on to another? That would make a huge difference in his future effectiveness.

[ArolasFlinn]

Someone already mentioned Lan and other warders being the "family" Tomas is spending his hour with, but is there a chance Tomas is Malkieri? I think that would be fitting. He goe s darkfriend because of what happened to his people, regrets it later, and shows his final defiance by riding with his countryman, likely to their deaths.

[Beer Rot]

Back to Thomas. One thing that struck me, and that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet, isn't it possible that Verin passed Thomas' bond on to another? That would make a huge difference in his future effectiveness.

 

Or just released it completely.

[Leonem]

Back to Thomas. One thing that struck me, and that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet, isn't it possible that Verin passed Thomas' bond on to another? That would make a huge difference in his future effectiveness.

 

Exactly! That was just what I thought when I read Luckers' post that Verin might simply have lied about Tomas. It is possible that she set him up like Lan to have his bond passed to someone else, and whatever his task then or her motives about it, it would make perfect sense not to tell Egwene. Even though she trusts her, she obviously doesn't trust her with everything, like the letter she gave to Mat. An hour would have been enough to tell about it, so it looks like she's got things in motion after her death that we will still find out, it seems.

[Leonem]

What I'm getting at is the "last hour" language is what happens when laymen (or laywomen) write legally binding contracts without the help of lawyers.  I think it's just human error.

 

I think so, too. I would add that in my opinion the "major" forces of the dark see the BA as just another group of cannon fodder at their disposal. The BA might think of themselves as very important, but they are certainly not treated such, and quite often are lower in rank than non-channeling DFs. Just like channeling ability doesn't determine rank among Aiel Wise Ones, it doesn't seem to determine rank among darkfriends either.

 

So my conclusion is that the DO and the Forsaken may be aware of the flaw in the oaths, but that the BA is just too unimportant for them to care about it.